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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.170.80

Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

February 11 2013, 3:31 PM 

Yes, I remember that both Max Lucado and especially his shadow, Rick Atchley, faithfully promised that instruments would not be added to the Sunday "worship" to the time that Jesus comes.

After about a decade of intentional manipulation, Rick was challenged about that promise and he said "but that was then and this is now." You can't imagine how much joy wife and I have watching our officials and mocking: but that is now but not tomorrow!

People have to lie to God and about God to say that "a" spirit told them that God COMMANDED INSTRUMENTAL praise and WE are not going to disobey God. They do not know and don't have the need to know that the Levites performed as soothsayers (same as sorcery in the literature) and that was after God turned them over to worship the STAR and sentenced them to Babylonianism without redemption.

Christ in Isaiah 30 and John in Revelation proves the instruments are marks in sight and sound of God driving His enemies into hell. Something mysterious is happening on earth and I am getting ready to go. I define HELL as all of the liars and musicians being sentenced to eternity having to listen to one another.

http://www.piney.com/Isa30LXX.html

 
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B
(no login)
98.87.24.44

Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

February 11 2013, 2:55 PM 

For those who have been watching Madison's developments, this news is really not all that amazing; rather, it is to be expected. I would submit that those churches of Christ that embrace a so-called "progressive" or "contemporary" theology are either planning, transitioning toward, or already have instrumental music in worship. The canned music comes first, which "breaks the ice" and makes the congregants more "comfortable" with the instrumental sound, then the live music follows in due course.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.169.213

Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

February 12 2013, 3:32 PM 

That's maybe a good sign: Scripture indicates that it will be hard to find faith when Jesus returns.

It is perhaps "a lying wonder" when people have slithered into the role of elder and must not be questioned, would deliberately sow discord just so they have have the performers to suck up the attention or giving attendance which is the UNIQUE meaning of worship during the Old Testament in the synagogues and defined inclusively and exclusively by the example of Jesus, the use of the EKKLESIA or synagogue word and defined by especially Peter and Paul.

When people know that they have to SOFTEN UP the "audience" they know that they are doing something treacherous and slimy. Otherwise, they could quote their proof and just do it.

This is the fulfillment of prophecy and we should rejoice if we are not seduced.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before

Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

February 11 2013, 10:13 PM 

Tom,

It is a huge development in Madison's journey to musical idolatry. I concur.

I can clearly contrast in my mind:

(1) How the music industry [Contemporary Christian "Rock"] has played a major role in the assembly of New Testament saints

--------------- and ---------------

(2) How the early [New Testament] Christians assembled to: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another..." (Col. 3:16) -- by "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" (Eph. 5:19).

It's a "big deal to me," Tom. But it's good to hear what others have or need to say.

 
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Tom Brite
(no login)
69.91.123.92

Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

February 12 2013, 11:01 AM 

Donnie, I can give you a prediction for the next five years for Madison.

At some point in the near future, the Elders will announce that they will be conducting a "study" on the topic of instrumental music in worship.
After several months of this "study," they will announce that they will be conducting round table discussions with the membership regarding their "study."
The Elders will then announce that their "study" has determined that instrumental music is not prohibited in the worship of the church.
The Elders will then announce that they will offer both instrumental and non-instrumental worship services.
The instrumental service will at first be the early service and then, in a year or so, the services will be switched to where the non-instrumental service will be the early service.

I have never visited Madison or even been in there building, but I feel certain that this will be the evolution of things.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.169.213

Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

February 12 2013, 12:18 PM 

Rev. Dr. KERR, Reformed Presbyterian Church of Scotland, Glasgow, said: There are now two ritualisms. There is the ritualism of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland and the ritualism of the Episcopalian Church of England.

"There is the ritualism against which George Gillespie delivered a destructive blow by his work on "English-Popish Ceremonies Obtruded on the (Reformed) Church of Scotland" the ritualism of saints' days and holy days, and in which he described these and other ceremonies as the "twigs and spriggs of Popish superstition."

These and other similar rites and ceremonies have been repudiated by the Presbyterianism of this northern kingdom without a dissentient voice for the last 300 years.

I must decline concurring with those who accuse the ritualists in the Presbyterian Churches of a deliberate conspiracy to overthrow the Protestant faith.
But it is probably impossible to devise any better methods for that purpose than those adopted by the ritualists.

If a number of ministers in Presbyterian charges where no ritualism exists were to resolve to ritualise and Romanise their congregations, could they adopt better measures than those in operation by ritualists?

Their plan of campaign would be marked by the following stages at considerable intervals:

1. adverse comments on the simplicity of the worship observed;
2. a choir, who would alone sing;

3. a hymnal, with hymns from Romish sources, and
4. frequent use of hymns by Newman and other notable Romanists;

5. a harmonium in the Sabbath school;
6. an organ in the church (a gift if possible);
7. occasional references to Protestants as bigots;
8. frequent use of the terms "the church," "holy communion," and "holy orders;"
9. a new church in shape of a cross, with chancel, nave, organ loft, apse, altar, and reredos;

10. introduction of saints' days and holy days, including Ash Wednesday, Maunday Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday, and Easter Sunday; crosses, crosiers; candles; incense; thurifers; and so on.

Would not such ministers and their congregations be ready for union with the Church of England Romanisers? Would they not be toying all this time with the trinkets of Babylon?There is the ritualism against which George Gillespie delivered a destructive blow by his work on "English-Popish Ceremonies Obtruded on the (Reformed) Church of Scotland" the ritualism of saints' days and holy days, and in which he described these and other ceremonies as the "twigs and spriggs of Popish superstition."

These and other similar rites and ceremonies have been repudiated by the Presbyterianism of this northern kingdom without a dissentient voice for the last 300 years.

I must decline concurring with those who accuse the ritualists in the Presbyterian Churches of a deliberate conspiracy to overthrow the Protestant faith.
But it is probably impossible to devise any better methods for that purpose than those adopted by the ritualists.

If a number of ministers in Presbyterian charges where no ritualism exists were to resolve to ritualise and Romanise their congregations, could they adopt better measures than those in operation by ritualists?

Their plan of campaign would be marked by the following stages at considerable intervals:

1. adverse comments on the simplicity of the worship observed;
2. a choir, who would alone sing;

3. a hymnal, with hymns from Romish sources, and
4. frequent use of hymns by Newman and other notable Romanists;

5. a harmonium in the Sabbath school;
6. an organ in the church (a gift if possible);
7. occasional references to Protestants as bigots;
8. frequent use of the terms "the church," "holy communion," and "holy orders;"
9. a new church in shape of a cross, with chancel, nave, organ loft, apse, altar, and reredos;

10. introduction of saints' days and holy days, including Ash Wednesday, Maunday Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday, and Easter Sunday; crosses, crosiers; candles; incense; thurifers; and so on.

Would not such ministers and their congregations be ready for union with the Church of England Romanisers? Would they not be toying all this time with the trinkets of Babylon?

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.13.208

Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

February 12 2013, 2:09 PM 

Since the elders are now allowing canned instrumental "background" music during the worship service, it would seem that the elders have already "studied" the matter and have concluded that instrumental music (live or Memorex) is not prohibited in worship. The elders have already sprung the trap of canned instrumental music, so it looks like they are just waiting for the right moment to spring the trap of live instrumental music, lest the congregants fall to pieces from shock. I see all this happening much sooner than five years from now. When this comes to pass, and if there are still separate services, the contemporary service will have the live instrumental music (rock band), while the traditional service will remain a cappella.

 
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Serious
(no login)
98.81.72.33

Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

February 17 2013, 2:34 PM 

For those who wish to make an educated response to the sermon BIG CHURCH Part Six: "Big Answers" just click on
"Big Answers" and start the media player.

http://www.madisoncofc.org/media.php?pageID=5

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.170.80

Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

February 11 2013, 12:46 PM 

[linked image]
[linked image]

 
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Scripture
(no login)
98.87.118.244

Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

February 11 2013, 5:00 PM 

Lesson on Sunday: Chinese looked into what made "America" "great."

1. Not the military system.
2. Not the economic system.
3. But the Christian system.

Then he said something about "counter-cultural." It would be good to listen to this lesson again. Then he quotes some figures that made Christianity great--no mention of the familiar figures we all know--such as Campbell, Scott, Lipscomb, Srygley, etc.--but names that are "strange" to most in the audience. You mean "you never heard of . . . . "

Are we to assume, that true Christianity would make America have the greatest military system, and the greatest economic system?

His main point was that the "church" was the "passenger-pigeon" (my words not his) to bring these Christian ideas to make American great. This, he says, is what makes the "church" important.




 
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Not Concerned Member
(no login)
166.205.68.31

Listen for once

February 11 2013, 6:56 PM 

You guys, who attend Madison, should listen and not for what you want to hear only. He did not say Christianity was what made America's military, government and economics great! He said that America was built on a solid moral, values system instilled and shaped by the church and its teaching. Meaning there is still a valuable place in the American culture for it. Be glad that some still see value and the need for the Lords church in our culture.

This young man has been spot on from Acts and the early church perspective. Give him a chance.

 
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Scripture
(no login)
98.87.118.244

Listen for once

February 11 2013, 10:28 PM 

We are indeed refreshed by his using a great deal of texts and scripture.

Marvelous use of Acts and church history--this we recognize.

It does make us a little nervous when American culture is used to justify God's kingdom. Not that he did that.

 
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Scripture
(no login)
98.87.118.244

Listen for once

February 11 2013, 10:47 PM 

The writer says "He said that America was built on a solid moral, values system instilled and shaped by the church and its teaching. Meaning there is still a valuable place in the American culture for it. Be glad that some still see value and the need for the Lords church in our culture."

I agree completely that there is "the need for the Lords [sic] church in our culture" and that "there is still a valuable place in the American culture for it."

I differ somewhat that "American was built on a solid moral, values system instilled and shaped by the church and its teaching." This latter statement is too complementary and somewhat doubtful. Look at the internal wars, the dispossession of land, and the internal persecution throughout the history. Look at the need for frequent periods of necessary religious revival.

Be careful to differentiate the church from culture in which it finds itself.


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Listen for once

February 11 2013, 10:51 PM 

To Not Concerned:

I think we're giving young Jason a chance and the benefit.

He did his homework and research related to what he delivered this past Sunday.

But I should say that while quoting historical facts associated with Christianity in modern times in a very broad sense [i.e., by encompassing all "Christian" religions] and its influence in various cultures, we should not lose sight of what occurred in the beginning of Christ's church when those baptized were ADDED to the church [became Christians]. Thanks to Peter preaching the simple message of Christ the crucified and the Jews that gathered were "pricked in their heart," repented and WERE BURIED WITH Christ in baptism IN ORDER TO have their sins remitted.

The scriptural message of conversion [i.e., the biblical way] is very significant, if part of the objective of the lesson is to point out ways and means to "grow the church." The gospel of Christ, the power of God unto salvation, MUST BE preached.

If you're suggesting that "the church" [spoken of in the New Testament] is comprised of all Catholic, Protestant and other "Christian" religious bodies, then there's no point in making the plea to be New Testament Christians only. In other words, any religious denomination will do.

That's not negating the fact that "Christianity" in general terms has had its influence in various cultures.

The point I'm simply making is that those outside of Christ need to know and go through the process of CONVERSION before they can become members of the Lord's church. To me ... CONVERSION, the scriptural way, is pretty significant in the plan to "grow the church."

 
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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)
72.209.196.118

The spirit said in I Tim 4:1

February 11 2013, 5:42 PM 


.....that in the Christian age "some shall depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.... " The activity of some who were once faithful should not take us by surprise. Note for your consideration the use of the word "seducing" as a descriptive term of those who mislead and sweet talk us by not telling all the truth. Note also the lead in ...... the Spirit says expressly ....as in direct and specific communication that this will happen. There is no doubt about it.. be forewarned and be prepared for it will happen. Know your Bible it is our defense against these types!

Comments Welcome

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.163.4

Re: The spirit said in I Tim 4:1

February 11 2013, 11:08 PM 

I am fairly certain that they still do not know the meaning of ekklesia or synagogue, do not know how to separate the words DISCIPLE and "worshiper" and do not know that the recourse is defined inclusively and exclusively.

Ekklesia and synagogue are both Greek words. In the Civil sense not even the president of the ekklesia (contact elder) had the authority to submit any material which had not been handed down by a higher authority. If you had singers or "instrumental elevator music" during the meeting of the "city council" we know from history that they would be -- in our terms -- tarred and feathered -- and sent away.

The religious ekklesia or Church in the wilderness was to HEAR and MEDITATE on the Word of God handed down to sub-elders in scattered towns in groups dived down to ten households.

It is defined to exclude vocal or instrumental rejoicing or rhetoric other than PREACHING the word by READING the word or speaking from memory.

I don't expect to see any of those Assemblies of Christ but then Jesus said that the kingdom of God does not come with observation meaning religious observations other than being what Christ and the Campbells called A School of Christ.

Maybe your preacher can tippy-toe toward that by teaching whole chapters or thought patterns and checking it against the Spirit OF Christ in the Prophets. We are told that the ekklesia is built upon or EDUCATED by the Prophets and Apostles (the two witnesses) and Peter identified as a false teacher anyone who private interprets or further expounds with his own experiences.

Cornelius was a God-Fearer and his prayers were honored by God. However, Peter was sent to tell him what to do to be saved: Peter commanded him to be baptized to become a saved disciple. Therefore, a diminishing moral majority does not connect to being a Disciple of Christ.




 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.163.4

Phil's Sermon about Phil

February 17 2013, 3:45 PM 

28 minutes of Phil: None for Christ. I truly feel sick at my stomach. First, He doesn't know the meaning of EKKLESIA: it is to speak the DOCTRINE of Christ by READING as Paul commanded Timothy. I have never heard a sermon so I centered.

Here is how Paul defined the Ekklesia always EXCLUDING rhetoric one of the hypocritic arts.

[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.197.163.4 on Feb 17, 2013 3:50 PM


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Phil's Sermon about Phil

February 17 2013, 5:43 PM 

There's no difference between Phil and Jason in the understanding (or misunderstanding) of the ekklesia. One difference is in the appearance on stage [and I'm not complaining, just pointing it out] -- Phil looking dignified and neat [the entire suit and tie, which Dave Fields of Clemson, SC might consider out-of-place by "contemporary worship" standards]; Jason Shepherd looking like the 1st century shepherd ["look at me; come as you are"].

The impression that "the body of Christ" encompasses all of modern-day "Christianity" regardless of "religious denomination" is beyond me. It's insanity to associate today's Christianity with the establishment of the church in the first century and how it grew and expanded under apostolic leadership. What's the purpose if the emphasis is on growth and expansion without the apostolic teachings? The apostles preached Christ and the gospel truth -- not what modern theologians and televangelists teach. One might as well join the neighboring Cornerstone Church in Madison. It [the Community Church] already has everything that the Madison congregation is just now trying to achieve and accomplish and to compete with, plus MORE.

Anyway, again, there was "soft" instrumental music in the background DURING the partaking of the Lord's Supper. I think it was ORGANIC music [the sound of an organ].

The ladies were on stage again co-worship leading with the men. OK, OK, OK, it was the last "praise" music.

"Boiling the frog" in progress: (1) soft instrumental music and (2) the Praise Team performing on stage.

What's next? Eventually?

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.210.163

Re: Phil's Sermon about Phil

February 17 2013, 7:03 PM 

I think we have a fairly good idea of what's "next" to come." The canned background instrumental music will continue for a while during the Lord's Supper, then it will "accompany" a few congregational hymns. Then perhaps it will play during the preacher's sermon, during the collection, and during any baptisms. The evolution to live instrumental music would be the "next" step.

Beyond that, it's conceivable that other denominational practices would follow, such that eventually what went on at Madison would be no different from what went on at any one of the denominational churches.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.163.4

Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

February 17 2013, 7:03 PM 

What's Next. From the prophets to Revelation the SOUNDS-LIKE imitation or literal musical instruments are the noises of the BEAST. Those who get slicked into it are MARKED and I find no evidence that it can ever be rubbed off. Therefore, you have to look at all groups who have been Lifted up with Pride as the mortal enemy of Christ and His message from the Prophets and Apostles.

Christ defines the future REST in the synagogue from the wilderness onward as His ekklesia which permites NO origination of material to be taught and discussed. Isaiah 55 outlaws the "audience" for paying their bread money for that FREE water of the Word. In Isaiah 58 He outlaws seeking your own pleasure or SPEAKING YOUR OWN WORDS.

He calls the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites. In the Ezekiel 26 and 33 passage parallel to the NOT TIMES, The Spirit OF Christ who does ALL of the pattern speech warned.

Therefore, you have to look at Madison as the PATTERN for almost every member of the elect who will scarcely be saved: that's DOCTRINE or the Teaching of Christ. If you say that doctrine does not count then DISCOUNT the doctrine or DOGMA of the Madison leaders. That also means that you DESPISE the Word of Christ and that makes you guilty of BLASPHEMING The Holy Spirit Of Christ and THAT'S why they have been separated out by the LOCUSTS (Muses) and are held captive until judgment.

[linked image]





 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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