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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.163.4

Re: New Senior Minister at Madison

February 17 2013, 7:12 PM 

If someone did a check you probably will find a very small number who OWNED the church before the Frog Cooks turned from tadpoles to a poison, frog-licking kind.

That may mean that the prophecy of the LOCUSTS (muses) may have separated out all that can be separated. You remember that the BLIND follow the BLIND guide fall into the ditch which is defined as the pit or hell.

Question? are we to be upset with the blind and the frogs who apparently LOVE the warm bath? Are they the lost spirits Jesus sent OUT evangelists to seek and save from the WORLD or Cosmos for which Jesus refuses to pray.

ACU, Pepperdine joined at the lip with the NACC are calling for a COSMIC WORSHIP and an agent at ACU and the ZOE GROUP are calling for God's Holy Fire to fall on them. Do they have any choice once they have tampered with the Word? The Fallen Star (Apollo, Abaddon, Apollyon) was the SEMITE god to which God abandoned Israel after they fell into instrumental idolatry of the triad or "family of gods."

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.165.164

Jason Shepherd's Does the Church Matter Today?

February 18 2013, 12:27 PM 

I like Billy Graham who stood up and asserted: "The Bible says." However, there are times for motivational sermons and I was impressed with the coherence and evident character as compared to lots of preachers.

It is important to say that the change people who are trained in theology have been very destructive.

Jason says that others know that our culture is ordered by Christianity or it's principles.

The problem that started more than a decade ago was based on the false idea that Christianity was the CAUSE of all of the problems. That was the old modern era which they want to replace with a postmodern, post-Christian, post biblical world. It is based on Catholic Liberation Theology and Feminist theology.

I would hope that Jason uses his considerable talent on the text--as it has been taught. The culture which BUILT our nation was based on preaching the text and teaching it believing that it has the Spirit power to transform or regenerate.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the [our] holy spirit;

Only when people are fed with the Word and not continually disturbed in their quiet rest will people return.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.244.94

Re: Jason Shepherd's Does the Church Matter Today?

February 18 2013, 1:24 PM 

In my earlier years, I always wondered why Billy Graham never mentioned being baptized when, during his TV crusades, he called for people to get out of their seats and come forward to give their lives to Christ. He always mentioned having faith and going to church, but never baptism. Then later I learned that his roots were Baptist, a denomination that does not believe that baptism is essential for salvation.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Jason Shepherd's Does the Church Matter Today?

February 18 2013, 2:29 PM 

I also learned that Billy Graham initially believed that baptism was necessary in order to be saved. If true, perhaps someone can explain why later on he preached: "be saved now; be baptized later."

The point is simply that we teach what "the Bible says." If the change agents in the brotherhood can only make that assertion [which I'm afraid they would be hesitant to do so], then, we can point out when they teach falsehood and denominational dogma.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Jason Shepherd's Does the Church Matter Today?

February 18 2013, 2:20 PM 

"The Bible says" was certainly an assertion that preceded doctrinal teachings presented by previous generations of preachers in our Movement [and even by those of other religious persuasions among whom was Billy Graham].

Do you think Change Agents in this present generation make that same assertion ("the Bible says")? NO, NO, NO!!! Of course, not!!! What dominates their thinking is that the church of Christ -- which and as a "denomination" to the change agents -- should be accommodating to "other" denominations and allow itself (the church) to compromise the truth. In their thinking: it is not about what "the Bible says"; rather, it is about how the church (that Christ founded) should be just like "other DENOMI-nations."

The objective of the Roman Catholic Church in our day is to convert Protestant Churches and to provide options and opportunities such that the Protestants "come home to Mother Church" headquartered in the Vatican. They sing "Protestant" hymns including those written by Martin Luther, leader of the Reformation [of the Roman Catholic Church] Movement. They now encourage Bible reading [contrary to what occurred during the Dark Ages], but to the extent of finding and explaining away "nebulous" passages of scriptures that support their doctrine and man-made traditions in order to rebut Protestant teachings against the made-into-a-pope Peter, worship of the Virgin Mary, etc.

In regard to Titus 3:5, this passage specifically justifies and validates the conversion process described in Acts 2:37,38. "Works of righteousness" were not required in conversion, simply meaning why do good works first in order to be converted to Christ? To the Christian now, CONVERSION was in regard to his PAST SALVATION.

How was that CONVERSION achieved? Let Acts 2:37,38 and Acts 3:19 and Titus 3:5 explain it:

The benefits of CONVERSION (belief, repentance, baptism) are two-fold:

(1) In order to receive FORGIVENESS OF (PAST) SINS in the blood of the Lamb (Acts 2:38) ... or ... "according to his mercy He SAVED us by the WASHING OF REGENERATION" (Titus 3:5)

-------------------- AND ------------------

(2) Ye shall receive the gift of the spirit of MAN made HOLY (Acts 2:38), a.k.a. "the times of REFRESHING shall come (Acts 3:19), a.k.a. "RENEWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT [OF MAN] (Titus 3:5).

Let me briefly explain the 2nd benefit: it is the SPIRIT of the newly converted man that is made HOLY. It is the converted man who is REFRESHED or who has a CLEAR CONSCIENCE when CONVERTED to Christ.

Trust me: The Holy Spirit OF the Lord God DOES NOT NEED REFRESHING OR RENEWING!!! Rather, it is the converted MAN'S SPIRIT that is made HOLY, RENEWED and REFRESHED.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.165.164

Re: Jason Shepherd's Does the Church Matter Today?

February 18 2013, 3:24 PM 

It is my understanding that Billy Graham believed that baptism was required and offered to reward anyone who could convince his wife. I believe that he said that he needed to defer baptism to become A BAPTIST PREACHER. At least he did not deny the Bible.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

My grammar is pretty dim but if you read it "renewing OF the Holy Spirit" doesn't that really say that the Spirit NEEDS to be renewed? That might drive off lots of true Bible students.

Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit OF your mind;

Which means:

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true HOLIness.

Wouldn't it pretend to believe what the writers wrote if you did NOT lift out one verse?

That's why the PATTERN in the wilderness which never changed for the godly people who attended synagogue (church) where they READ the word systematically: that is the only way to honor God and pretend that you intend to preach what the AUTHOR meant.


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

"Holy" is an adjective; "spirit" is an improper noun.

February 18 2013, 4:54 PM 

There is undeniably a translation issue that we have to contend with.

The word "spirit," in the first place, is an improper noun, neuter. In reference to God's spirit, such as itself manifested in various forms throughout the Bible, there are definitions to be considered -- "wind" or "breath" or "power" or "mind," etc., it is NEVER identified as a proper noun (which means in capitalized form [as in "the Father" or "Jehovah" or "Christ"]). Rather, the word "spirit" is an improper noun, whether it is in reference: (a) to the spirit of God or (b) to the spirit of man. Neither is a proper noun or or a proper name.

Blame it on the man-made, pope-approved Trinity Doctrine -- which has coerced God to make the pronouncement that the Godhead is comprised of three (3) persons.

Then, the early versions or translations of the Bible, including the King James Version, were affected (and infected) by the papal/Nicene decree which essentially made God schizophrenic or with multiple personalities.

Translations should've had no consideration for or influence by the preconceived notion of "the holy spirit OF God" as being ANOTHER person.

The Acts 2:38 translation should be: "... shall receive the/a [an article] gift of the/a [an article] holy spirit -- NOT "... shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost [capitalized adjective? ... capitalized improper noun?].

The Titus 3:5 translation should be: "... renewing of the holy spirit" -- NOT "... renewing of the Holy Ghost [capitalized adjective? ... capitalized improper noun?].

As already mentioned,

... (1) even the falsely thought-of "Holy Ghost" as the Trinitarian's 3rd person in the Godhead does not need any renewal or refreshing.

-------------------- or ---------------

... (2) the spirit of the Lord God which is HOLY [not the 3rd person] does NOT need any renewal or refreshing.

All this simply leads us to the conclusion that it is the SPIRIT of MAN in CONVERSION that needs renewing or refreshing. How difficult is this SIMPLE TRUTH to grasp?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.165.164

Re: "Holy" is an adjective; "spirit" is an improper noun.

February 18 2013, 5:16 PM 

All of my research shows that the people who want to CHANGE belittle the word and even define you as a legalist if you attempt to tell the Biblical Story.

They claim that a VISION (Max Lucado) told them to remove the name of CHRIST and add instrumental music. Rubel Shelly that we should hear the audible voice of the Spirit saying "walk here..." and Rick Atchley had a spirit tell him that God's abandonment of Israel to worship the starry host with EXORCISM noise (not called music) that God commanded INSTRUMENTAL PRAISE (whatever that means). And I believe that Madison claims the "holy spirit" as their guide.

I believe that is the case of just about everyone. The Spirit of Christ in Jeremiah says that if you say that God commanded something He did not command you despise or blaspheme the holy Spirit OF Christ.

Pepperdine 2013 and the NACC 2013 are both covering the whole book of Revelation and claim that they will bring on COSMIC WORSHIP which is what God abandoned Israel to worship.

John Mark Hicks and a few others lead the band of defining God as THREE CENTERS OF CONSCIOUSNESS with the Holy Spirit person the one we should follow. That means that if the elders define to add a Musical Worship Team (standing in the holy place claiming to be the MEDIATORS) they are not just in simple error: based on the instrumental accounts they have been abandoned to something they cannot shake off.

That's why they get so ugly when anyone still insists being ekklesia means that God calls us OUR of the World's religions.

You might like to see what the ancients believed about Tubal-Cain and the discovery of instrumental magic. The worship leader is reading out the notes. They MISSED the call to get on the Ark.

[linked image]

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

The Third Person "Holy Ghost" Dilemma

February 18 2013, 6:52 PM 

The church of Christ member who believes that the receiving of "the gift of the Holy Ghost" means receiving the Trinity's Holy Spirit "Himself" ... faces a dilemma and is somewhat discombobulated:

  • So, I now worship the Holy Ghost?
  • So, I now can directly communicate with "God the Holy Ghost"?
  • So, "God the Holy Ghost" now can directly communicate with me?
  • So, I now have "Charismatic" tendencies (sort of)?
  • So, miracles happen today [confused with miracles performed in the 1st century]?
  • So, now I am confused -- do I expect myself to speak in tongues?
  • So, now I can feel, "He touched me"?
  • So, now I can claim, "He spoke to me"?
  • So, now I can sing: "Come, Holy Spirit, Guest Divine"?
  • So, now I can sing: "Sweet Holy Spirit, stay right here with us"?
  • So, now I can sing: "Spirit, we love You, we worship and adore You"?
  • But I have difficulty understanding an O.T. passage: "All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils" (Job 27:3)?

On the other hand, the Christian should have no difficulty with the truth that in the CONVERSION process (belief, repentance, burial in baptism), the individual receives these benefits:

  • Forgiveness of sins in His blood
  • The gift of his SPIRIT made HOLY (REFRESHED, RENEWED, with a CLEAR CONSCIENCE)

He has put on Christ, wears the name of Christ, is a Christian, added to the body of Christ -- and begins NEWNESS OF LIFE -- without the confusion of whether or not he should "FEEL CHARISMATIC." Or, aspire to become a member of the CHARISMATIC "PRAISE TEAM" PERFORMERS happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif

 
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B
(no login)
74.240.239.13

Re: The Third Person "Holy Ghost" Dilemma

February 18 2013, 8:41 PM 

It seems rather difficult to believe that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than one's life source or spirit made holy at conversion. That may be true, but Jesus implies that the Holy Spirit or Comforter is more than that:

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you" (John 14:16-17 KJV).

"But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26 KJV).

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me" (John 15:26 KJV).

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment" (John 16:7-8 KJV).

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13 KJV).

In the passages above, Jesus says that the Holy Spirit, Comforter, and the Spirit of truth are one and the same. Thus the Holy Spirit need not be seen as an entity completely separate from God/Christ; rather it is the very Spirit of God/Christ who will dwell within and guide the apostles and all faithful Christians after Jesus leaves the earth.

Suffice it to say that the Holy Spirit IS.


 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.165.164

Re: The Third Person "Holy Ghost" Dilemma

February 18 2013, 9:35 PM 

It seems rather difficult to believe that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than one's life source or spirit made holy at conversion. That may be true, but Jesus implies that the Holy Spirit or Comforter is more than that:

It would have been much easier before the Charismatic outbreak. Churches of Christ went from NO literal indwelling to a LITERAL indwelling but the spirit "person" or people didn't do anything. That has evolved to rejecting Christ Who does not say what they need and inventing a HOLY SPIRIT person who only is TALENTED enough for HIS dispensation which is TEXTLESS.

Take a look at these verses: the Spirit OF God has no power. That is because all classical trinitarians understand that SPIRIT is the BREATH of God (for we simple folk). God breaths into the Man Jesus of Nazareth whom God made to be both Lord and Christ. As a SON Jesus said that he says ONLY what God speaks to him by the Spirit WITHOUT MEASURE: Since there is no meter in the words of Christ the word most often means that Christ speaks WITHOUT METER.

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him:
..... but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you,
.....and shall be IN you" (John 14:16-17 KJV).


Jesus was IN THE FLESH: the Spirit was WITH the apostles when Jesus was with them.

"But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost,
.....whom the Father will send in my name,
.....he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance,
.....whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26 KJV).


John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am IN my Father, and ye in me, and I IN you.


IN must mean more than INSIDE OF because the symbol of the Spirit--the Dove--rested ON Jesus. In John 14:20 the one God the Father BREATHS and the SON articulate. Therefore, in this statement the INNESS is Father-Son ONLY. Breath or Spirit or Mind of God need not pass from the SPIRIT world to the MAN Jesus in the flesh.

The Comforter will bear the NAME of Jesus Christ.
The Comforter has nothing to say: The Comforter is REMBRANCE of things taught.
Because Peter had the eye- and ear--witness of the Spirit delivered by Jesus, He left us a MEMORY and declared that not to be subject of private interpretation or further expounding: that would deny God's power to put His MIND into text as the Spirit OF Christ left God's MIND in the prophets. Therefore, people who repudiate the MEMORY guaranteed by supernatural signs will be marked by quick references to a passage but spinning tales out of his own mind. Paul called them the MANY but it takes only a few minutes to tell whether a preacher follows the direct command and Jesus example of PREACHING the Word by READING the Word for comfort and doctrine.

"But when the Comforter is come,
.....whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth,
.....which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me" (John 15:26 KJV).


Again, the Spirit OF truth has nothing to say: Spirit means wind or BREATH and cannot be a people.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted,
.....and having received of the Father the promise [evangelistic office] of the Holy Ghost,
.....HE hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.


Just as He promised the Apostles: shed or poured forth is complete

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away:
.....for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you;
..... but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
.....And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin,
.....and of righteousness, and of judgment" (John 16:7-8 KJV).


The COMFORTER was WITH the Apostles when JESUS was with them in the flesh. However, Jesus Christ in his role of Holy (wholly) Spirit could not come until Jesus had been CHANGED and taken on His Holy Spirit Form. Acts

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,
.....he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself;
.....but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak:
.....and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13 KJV).


THE SAME JOHN TELLS US THAT THE COMFORTER IS:

1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
.....And if any man sin, we have an advocate [paraklete] with the Father,
.....Jesus Christ the righteous:
1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word,
.....in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are IN him.
1John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


When the POST CHANGED Lord appeared to Paul to guide him into all truth He said "I am Jesus of Nazareth."

Peter said that he would leave US a MEMORY of their eye and ear witness of the Risen Lord.

1Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved,
.....and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God,
.....and one mediator between God and men,
.....the man Christ Jesus;
1Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


In His post-glorified state God made Jesus to sit on the Throne until He comes again. The Spirit Father speaks face to face with Jesus and the BREATH message goes away as the writers finish their PARTS. The salutations in the letters recognize only.

God the Father in Heaven
And Jesus who received the PROMISE or office of Holy Spirit.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.197.165.164 on Feb 18, 2013 10:26 PM


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Quoting John Chapter 14 and Chapter 16

February 18 2013, 10:47 PM 

B,

The point of the discussion regarding the "holy spirit" in the CONVERSION PROCESS is about whether:

(1) That the "gift of the Holy Ghost" in Acts 2:38 (KJV) is the 3rd person of the Trinity Creed. Why should it be the 3rd person (Holy Ghost), and NOT the 1st person (the Father) or NOT the 2nd person (the Son)?????????? Why the "3rd person"?

--------------------------- or ----------------------

(2) That the gift received at conversion (in addition to the forgiveness of sins) is the spirit of man being made holy. There are supporting passages that prove that what happens at CONVERSION is that the spirit of the converted individual is affected: he has been made holy [pure], refreshed, RENEWED. God's spirit does NOT need RENEWING, REFRESHING or BEING MADE HOLY. (Read Acts 3:19 and Titus 3:5.)

OK, that's about what or whose spirit (God's or man's) being made HOLY at conversion.

Outside of the conversion process in Acts 2:38, there's another issue regarding who the Holy Spirit is?

Who is the Holy Spirit? That is a valid question.

The answer is simple:

(1) Refer to John 4:21-24. Jesus himself spoke of THE FATHER being God who IS A SPIRIT?. The Father is not human in the flesh. In fact, He is WHOLLY a spirit -- no flesh and bones. The Father is the Holy Spirit.

(2) Refer to John chapters 14 and 16. I am so glad that you quoted passages from those chapters. Unfortunately, the "Spirit" clearly spoken of in those chapters is THE SON JESUS CHRIST Himself AFTER his resurrection. I will not take the time to analyze those verses as you can do that yourself. Jesus was the physical Comforter and the truth WHILE he was living with his disciples. He became the "another" Comforter and "the Spirit of truth" after he left his disciples.

(3) There is no proof in the entire Bible that there is another "Holy Spirit" -- the Father is the Holy Spirit; the Son Jesus Christ in his DIVINE nature is the Comforter and the Spirit of truth promised in John 14 and 16.

Remember that the relationship and communication has always been between the Father (Holy Spirit) and the Son (Holy Spirit in his divine nature) [passages too numerous to quote here], while the Trinity's imaginary "Holy Ghost" is absent. Only the Roman Catholic Church would add a "third" person, thus, "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost." Unfortunately, many Protestant Churches have perpetuated such a belief. The RCC is also responsible for another threesome doctrine -- that if there is the Father and if there is the Son, the Son must have the Mother. Wow!!! So, now -- the perpetual Virgin Mary, "Mother of God" completes the "family" structure.

That's why "the spirit" is expressed in various ways in the Bible:

(01) "the Spirit" and
(02) "the Holy Spirit" and
(03) "the Spirit OF God" and
(04) "the Holy Spirit OF God" and
(05) "the Spirit OF the Lord" and
(06) "the Spirit OF the Father" and
(07) "the Spirit OF Christ" and
(08) "the Spirit OF our God" and
(09) "the Spirit OF life in Christ Jesus"
(10) "the Spirit OF the living God"
(11) "the Spirit OF His Son"
(12) "the Spirit OF Jesus Christ"
(13) "the Spirit OF life from God"

Here's the challenge regarding the preposition "OF":

(14) I need a passage that speaks of "the Spirit OF the Holy Spirit"

Maybe, only the very technical engineer or computer programmer/analyst is capable of understanding John 14 thru 16. Hmmm.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.63.33

Re: Quoting John Chapter 14 and Chapter 16

February 19 2013, 12:18 AM 

Since Jesus simply describes the Holy Spirit as an entity or presence whom God will send after Jesus leaves the world, it's much more simple to say that the Holy Spirit exists, therefore, the Holy Spirit IS and stop there. Any further argument about that is like arguing when God came into being. It's much more simple to say that God exists, therefore, God IS and stop there.

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now" (John 16:12 KJV). Since that passage comes in the midst of Jesus telling His disciples about the Holy Spirit, Jesus is basically saying that mortal humans cannot fully understand everything about the Holy Spirit: "...ye cannot bear them now."

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Quoting John Chapter 14 and Chapter 16

February 19 2013, 4:13 AM 

A VERY careful study of both chapters 14 and 16 of John would clearly indicate that Jesus Christ himself in his DIVINE nature is that Spirit of truth or the Comforter.

Jesus was not obfuscating when he said, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you" (14:18).

Jesus clearly stated: "... for he [Jesus] dwelleth WITH you [physically] ... and shall be IN you [in spirit, in his divine nature, after resurrection]" (John 14:16-17, KJV).

The entire narrative in those two chapters points to Jesus Christ -- (1) what was occurring while he was WITH his disciples and (2) what to expect of the resurrected Jesus: this time as the promised Comforter, as well as the Spirit of truth.

In that sense, "the Holy Spirit" is not the 3rd person or a separate person of the man-concocted Trinity Doctrine.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.248.201

Re: Quoting John Chapter 14 and Chapter 16

February 19 2013, 9:24 AM 

Once again: In John's Gospel, Jesus equates the Holy Spirit with the Comforter and the Spirit of truth. That's all we need to know. Is the Holy Spirit a distinct entity separate from God/Jesus, or is the Holy Spirit simply the Spirit of God/Jesus that dwells in each Christian? In terms of the Holy Spirit's effects on faithful Christians, does it really matter one way or the other?

Make life simple: Just be happy that the Holy Spirit exists and therefore IS, just like God exits and therefore IS. Don't agonize and worry about it.


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Quoting John Chapter 14 and Chapter 16

February 19 2013, 9:27 PM 

B,

(1) It's simple. The Father is the Holy Spirit (John 4:21-24). No one can be more a SPIRIT {invisible, without flesh and bones) and no one is more HOLY than our Father. We, earthlings, can NOT change God's nature. Even Jesus said of the Father, "God IS a SPIRIT...." And there's no reason for Christians not to continue to address Him as our "Holy Father" (John 17:11).

(2.a) It's simple. When Jesus was living WITH His disciples, He was their COMFORTER (literally); he also claimed: "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life..." (John 14:6)

(2.b) It's simple. The resurrected Christ is that "another" COMFORTER to be IN them. The resurrected Christ is that SPIRIT OF TRUTH.

(2.c) B, I still have confidence in your grammatical prowess. Please notice the pronouns, tenses and expressions in John 14 and 16:

  • "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you" (14:18)
  • "... for he dwelleth WITH you, and SHALL BE IN YOU" (14:17)
  • "... I go away, and come again unto you" (14:28)
  • "A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me" (16:16)


That is pretty clear to me that the RISEN Christ [no more in a physical body] may be DIFFERENT in nature, but He certainly is the SAME Spirit of Truth and the Comforter.

(3) If there is a different (third) PERSON in the Holy Spirit, how do you envision that "Spirit" to be? A dove descending from heaven to worship?

 
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B
(no login)
74.240.208.39

Re: Quoting John Chapter 14 and Chapter 16

February 20 2013, 12:16 AM 

Yes, it's very simple, so there's really no need to break the Holy Spirit down into a series of types (1), (2.a), (2.b), (2.c), and (3), because Jesus certainly never gave such numbers in the Gospels. happy.gif He simply said the Holy Spirit was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth (not a bunch of differently functioning subunits), so that's as far as we need to go. Continuing to sweat and agonize over this matter just produces long, useless rebuttals with paragraphs that contain many underlined words in boldface and in all caps.


 
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Donnie
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Re: Quoting John Chapter 14 and Chapter 16

February 20 2013, 12:55 AM 

I did the numbering system for your benefit as you didn't seem to pay attention to the details of the narrative in those chapters. It was for clarification purposes -- not any different from when you presented the numbered happy.gif steps (1,2,3,4,5) of salvation.

Hopefully, I have made it clear that Jesus Christ is that Comforter and the Spirit of truth -- NOT another [the third] person in the Trinity dogma.

 
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B
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Re: Quoting John Chapter 14 and Chapter 16

February 20 2013, 2:04 AM 

Jesus made it clear in John's Gospel that the Holy Spirit is the Comforter and the Spirit of truth. I've said that previously. However, it really shouldn't matter one way or the other if the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity that is separate from God/Christ (third part of the Trinity), or if the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God/Christ. All that matters is that the Holy Spirit exists and therefore is.

BTW, the steps to salvation are an orderly progression. One cannot become a Christian until he follows a necessary set of progressive steps to salvation (e.g., one cannot believe until he first hears the Gospel, etc.). On the other hand, the Holy Spirit has no progression of steps, neither does he exist as a set of differently functioning subunits enumerated as 1, 2, 3...n, for, as Jesus stipulates, he exists simultaneously as the Comforter and the Spirit of truth.

Now you may feel compelled to push on, argue, and agonize over this matter further to try to get everyone to agree with your personal concept of the Holy Spirit, although, frankly, that really won't accomplish anything useful. Just be happy that the Holy Spirit exists and therefore is.

 
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Donnie
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Re: Quoting John Chapter 14 and Chapter 16

February 20 2013, 3:45 AM 

Don't forget that Trinitarians are into a numbering system: 1st person, God the Father; 2nd person, God the Son; 3rd person, God the Holy Ghost. You tell me how they've numbered God the Holy Ghost as the third person. I know that's how you're thinking, too. In fact, from your rebuttal, you are not convinced that Jesus Christ IS the Spirit of truth and is the Comforter. But, of course, it's your prerogative to ideate that there is a separate Spirit of truth and Comforter apart from Jesus Christ Himself.

It's your prerogative to ignore the truth that Christ made it clear to his disciples while he was still with them what to expect after his resurrection ... that:


  • "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you" (14:18)
  • "... for he dwelleth WITH you, and SHALL BE IN YOU" (14:17)
  • "... I go away, and come again unto you" (14:28)
  • "A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me" (16:16)


Indeed, Jesus promised that he would be their COMFORTER and that he would DWELL IN THEM as the SPIRIT OF TRUTH. That simply means that he dwelt WITH them physically, and he was to DWELL IN them as a Spirit. How can anyone concoct another "person" in the Godhead when the RESURRECTED Jesus [no longer in a human body] is that Spirit?

I am not agonizing over who the Comforter and the Spirit of truth is. I know it is Jesus Christ in his divine nature. I would agonize over having to envision a different Comforter and Spirit of truth from the resurrected Christ.


 
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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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