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Did They Need It?

January 3 2013 at 12:45 PM
Anonymous [Dave Fields]  (no login)
from IP address 130.127.42.38

Did Jesus have to supply wine for the wedding for the wedding to be a success? Was He fulfilling the desire to continue a tradition of having wine at the marriage celebration?
Which leads one to another thought.....considering the above dilemma and thought....would Jesus object to the tradition of instrumental music (compared to the tradition of voice only)? We don't need instruments to worship God (no more than they needed wine for a Marriage celebration), but the instruments would not preclude a meaningful worship to God (no more than wine would hinder a meainingful marriage celebration)......now would they???


happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif


HAPPY NEW YEARS!!!

=========================

David Fields, let's be honest and unashamed: claim [ sad.gifsad.gifsad.gif ]the message you authored.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Jan 3, 2013 10:02 PM


 
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AuthorReply
B
(no login)
98.87.24.30

Re: Did They Need It?

January 4 2013, 2:38 AM 

Does the church of Christ use voice-only (a cappella) music because of man-made "tradition" or because it is the only music that the New Testament specifies for us to use on earth? Had Jesus authorized Paul to say, "Singing with optional instrumental accompaniment and making melody in your heart to the Lord," then we would be free to sing a cappella OR to sing with musical accompaniment. But that's NOT what the New Testament says.

No, we don't need instruments to praise God in Christian worship. Those who think that instruments make worship more "meaningful" conveniently forget that such a premise stems from a worldly desire to please themselves. They think that anything that pleases them automatically pleases God.

If you want to please God, you do EXACTLY what Jesus tells you to do. You also do EXACTLY what Jesus through His apostles tells you to do. Do you really think that you can please God by second-guessing Him and adding more to any of His commands than what He specifies therein? Remember the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command.


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.9.249

Re: Did They Need It?

January 4 2013, 2:11 PM 

Lenski says that anyone who thinks that Jesus would manufacture and distribute up to 160 gallons of intoxicants to an ALREADY drunk wedding is ANXIOUS to mar the character of Jesus.

An alternative reading is to "give wine to those who are perishing." Mary obviously wanted Jesus to do a magical trick.

Otherwise, the BEST wine is freshly expressed and without skill rapidly goes down hill.

Odyssey 9. Then I bade the rest of my trusty comrades to remain there by the ship and to guard the ship, [195] but I chose twelve of the best of my comrades and went my way.

With me I had a goat-skin of the dark, sweet wine, which Maro, son of Euanthes, had given me, the priest of Apollo, the god who used to watch over Ismarus. And he had given it me because we had protected him with his child and wife [200] out of reverence; for he dwelt in a wooded grove of Phoebus Apollo.

And he gave me splendid gifts: of well-wrought gold he gave me seven talents, and he gave me a mixing-bowl all of silver; and besides these, wine, wherewith he filled twelve jars in all, [205] wine sweet and unmixed, a drink divine. Not one of his slaves nor of the maids in his halls knew thereof, but himself and his dear wife, and one house-dame only.

And as often as they drank that honey-sweet red wine he would fill one cup and pour it into twenty measures of water, [210] and a smell would rise from the mixing-bowl marvellously sweet; then verily would one not choose to hold back. With this wine I filled and took with me a great skin, and also provision in a scrip; for my proud spirit had a foreboding that presently a man would come to me clothed in great might, [215] a savage man that knew naught of justice or of law.


All of the teachings of Jesus are for OUR LEARNING: they are not intended to make into dogma spun out of tipsy heads.


 
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Rocky
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98.81.111.196

Re: Did They Need It?

January 5 2013, 11:05 AM 

Ken said:

All of the teachings of Jesus are for OUR LEARNING: they are not intended to make into dogma spun out of tipsy heads.

***********************

Ken, it would be nice if you quoted something from the Bible. Odyssey 9?, Lenski?, really? If you are going to throw us a bone at least give us some meat on it. happy.gif

 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.12.75

Re: Did They Need It?

January 5 2013, 12:53 PM 

I needed you to know that ALL of the "scholars" agree with me. happy.gif

 
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Rocky
(no login)
98.81.111.196

Re: Did They Need It?

January 5 2013, 1:21 PM 

Ken, are you and "Lenski" holding hands on infant baptism? happy.gif

 
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Rocky
(no login)
98.81.111.196

Re: Did They Need It?

January 5 2013, 11:46 AM 

Perhaps, the gulity dog ("B") is barking. Maybe "B" is gulity of violating the "NATNTFC"? "B" would have the book of Enoch ADDED to the Bible. "B" believes Enoch was inspired and therefore should be a book of the Bible. happy.gif


https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1145-jude-14-the-prophecy-of-enoch

 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.12.75

Re: Did They Need It?

January 5 2013, 1:32 PM 

He thinks that the spirit (breath) of God is another people about the size of God!

I never said it was inspired: A Bible disciple knows that the writers quote LOTS of none inspired writers: the scholars get tenure as PHDS and Greek scholars without having a clue that you have to look to the secular scholars to understand a single WORD of the Bible. Unless, as they want you to believe that they have a Greek-English-Latin-Hebrew written and published at the time.

For instance, they do not know or care that the word PSALLO never, ever in recorded history, past-present-future ever had the SLIGHTEST musical content. It means PLUCK with your fingers and NEVER with a guitar pick. Now, they will lie, cheat and steal the church house, church family, relationships and money (given to the lourd-e-uh) by saying that when Paul said PLUCK that gives them authority and even a command to sow massive discord.

The Book of Enoch (found in the dead sea Scrolls and therefore older than any NIV) simply tells the story that ALL slow ones of the fast group knew about using music to frazzle your brains and convince you that YOUR free deer now belonged to Jubal and YOU have to pay HIM.

Now, why would you believe a The-O-Lite trained to use his imagination [or hears "a" spirit) say that God commanded "instrumental praise" and YOU "had better not disobey that command of God? Or a "musical worship teams" (an oxymoron)--

--when the Spirit OF Christ and Enoch tells you that SATAN brought the wind, string and percussion instruments when he-she-it was cast as profane (that halal word) into the garden of Eden as the singing and harp playing prostitute?

Furthermore, the Spirit OF Christ tells you that the SIGN of God driving His enemies into "hell" is the same wind, string and percussion instruments used as sorcery to deceive the whole world (almost). And John calls them SORCERERS who HAD deceived the whole world and THE will be cast alive into the lake of fire.

Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying,
Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jude 15 To execute judgment upon all,
and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds
which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches
which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jude 16 These are , complainers, walking after their own lusts;
and their mouth speaketh great swelling
words, having mens persons in admiration because of advantage.

Grumbling(1112) (goggusmos from gogg├║zo = to say anything in a low tone, English = gong).

1114 goes A conjurer, and enchanter; a deceiver, an impostor.stammers--those who speak confusedly on divine things (compare Ex 4:10-12 Jer 1:6 Mt 10:19,20). Or, rather, those drunken scorners who in stammering style imitated Isaiah's warnings to mock them [MAURER]

gos , tos, o(,A. sorcerer, wizard, Phoronis 2, Hdt.2.33, 4.105, Pl.R. 380d, Phld.Ir.p.29 W.; g. epdos Ludias apo khthonos E.Ba.234, cf. Hipp.1038; prob. f.l. for bosi Hdt.7.191.



 
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Rocky
(no login)
98.81.111.196

Re: Did They Need It?

January 5 2013, 1:39 PM 

Ken, that's good to know info. However, I was addressing "B". happy.gif

 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.12.75

Re: Did They Need It?

January 5 2013, 2:36 PM 

B asked me to take care of his REALLY, REALLY light work. Besides, since I have kept my 83 old brain active by learning ANYTHING ever written, I just naturally want to know why it was that the Spirit OF (preposition) of Christ called your LEVITE SOOTHSAYING with instrument teams and warned about the LYING PEN OF THE SCRIBES. And why SOOTHSAYERS can now get a DEGREE from your once-Christian college.

I hoped that would give you a teeny clue that the Bible records the good, the bad and the ugly. When your mentors claim that the Lying pen of the Scribes told them to IMPOSE instrumental praise (still trying to decode that term) planning to sow massive discord and DRIVE OUT about half of the owners so they could RESTOCK the heard, I never miss a chance to see whether it is REALLY true: when you fiddle with the Word and drum up rituals to pick the pockets of the butterflies, God just gives you a middle Lumpotomy and detaches the rational (spiritual) hemisphere or does a hemisphere bypass.

I have collected a few parallels between Jude and Enoch: your task, if you chose to accept it, is to explain why there are so many parallels.

http://www.piney.com/MuJudeEnoch.html

Surely not ALL of those ancient scholars were wrong and old The-O-Lite is suddenly seeing visions and hearing "spirits."


 
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B
(no login)
74.179.14.202

Re: Did They Need It?

January 5 2013, 3:06 PM 

Since this is an open board, surely Rocky wouldn't object to good-to-know info from Ken.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.203.204

Re: Did They Need It?

January 5 2013, 2:20 PM 

As I recall, the Bible does not ever state that the books from Genesis to Revelation constitute the WHOLE biblical canon. A bunch of MORTAL MEN decided what would be the canon many centuries ago. People must think those mortal men were infallible, just like the Catholics have the half-baked idea that the Pope is infallible. So perhaps men (like Rocky) are guilty of omitting the Book of Enoch from the canon. Surely Enoch was inspired, because he made a prophecy about God, which Jude included in his epistle. An inspired man like Jude would NOT have included something as important as a prophecy about God if that prophecy had not also been inspired.

Now since Rocky doesn't believe that Enoch was inspired, then perhaps Rocky in turn doesn't believe that Jude was inspired. Perhaps Rocky has torn out that section in Jude with Enoch's prophecy about God. Or worse, perhaps Rocky has ripped out Jude's epistle altogether from his Bible. BTW, didn't Dave (who also believes Enoch was a fluke) urge Rocky to rip Jude from his Bible? happy.gif

 
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Scripture
(no login)
98.87.37.156

Unexpected

January 5 2013, 3:54 PM 

This is really interesting.

Those of you who are more traditional leave an opening to expansion of scripture.

Those who want some change cling to the traditional texts.


 
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B
(no login)
74.179.245.24

Re: Unexpected

January 5 2013, 4:28 PM 

Since the Bible does not tell us that THE complete canon consists of Genesis to Revelation, then we must face the possibility that other books are indeed inspired, but MAN decided to ignore them, based on his biases.

 
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Rocky
(no login)
98.81.111.196

Re: Unexpected

January 6 2013, 10:11 AM 

Question: "How do we decide which books belong in the Bible since the Bible does not say which books belong in the Bible?"

Answer: If Scripture is to be our sole authority, on what authority do we know which books belong in the Bible - since the Bible does not state which books should be in the Bible? This is a very important question, because a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. In the chain of communication from God to humanity, is there a weak link? If so, then the whole chain fails, and the communication ultimately cannot be trusted.

Consider the various "links" comprising God's communication to us: first came God's desire to communicate. This was rooted in His love, for the most loving thing a good God can do is reveal Himself to His creation. Next came the actual transmission of God's Word through human writers. This involved a process the Bible calls "inspiration," in which God breathed the words that the human agents recorded (2 Timothy 3:16). After that came dissemination, as the Word was delivered to its audience through preaching or other means. Then came recognition, as God's people distinguished Holy Scripture from other religious writings. And then, preservation, through which God's Word has survived to the present day, despite many attempts to destroy it. And finally, illumination, as the Holy Spirit opens the believer's understanding to receive the Word.

And that's the "chain"--the demonstration of God's love in the inspiration, dissemination, recognition, preservation, and illumination of His Word. We believe that God was involved in each step of the process, for why would God go to such lengths to inspire His Word and then not preserve it? Why would He speak to us and then fail to guide us in recognizing His speech?

This recognition of God's Word is usually called "canonization." We are careful to say that God determined the canon, and the church discovered the canon. The canon of Scripture was not created by the church; rather, the church discovered or recognized it. In other words, God's Word was inspired and authoritative from its inception--it "stands firm in the heavens" (Psalm 119:89)--and the church simply recognized that fact and accepted it.

The criteria the church used for recognizing and collecting the Word of God are as follows:

1) Was the book written by a prophet of God?
2) Was the writer authenticated by miracles to confirm his message?
3) Does the book tell the truth about God, with no falsehood or contradiction?
4) Does the book evince a divine capacity to transform lives?
5) Was the book accepted as God's Word by the people to whom it was first delivered?

Of these criteria, the one of most importance was the first one--was the book written by a prophet? Its corollary, did the book receive apostolic approval?, was the chief test of canonicity in the early church. This criterion is a logical result of knowing what an "apostle" was. The apostles were gifted by God to be the founders and leaders of the church, so it is reasonable to accept that through them came the Word governing the church.

The apostles were promised the Spirit of truth who would bring to their remembrance what Christ had said (John 14:26) and guide them into "all truth" (John 16:13). After the ascension of Christ, the apostles received supernatural gifts to enable their work and confirm their message (Acts 2:4). God's household is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets" (Ephesians 2:20). Given the apostles' special commission, it only makes sense that the church made apostolicity the number-one test of canonicity. Thus, the Gospel of Matthew was considered canonical (it was written by an apostle); and the Gospel of Mark, with its close association with the Apostle Peter, was also accepted.

When the New Testament was being written, the individual books and letters were immediately accepted as God's Word and circulated for the benefits of others. The church of Thessalonica received Paul's word as the Word of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13). Paul's epistles were circulating among the churches even during apostolic times (Colossians 4:16). Peter recognized Paul's writings as inspired by God and equated them with "the rest of the Scriptures" (2 Peter 3:15-16). Paul quoted the Gospel of Luke and called it "Scripture" (1 Timothy 5:18). This widespread acceptance stands in stark contrast to the few debated books, eventually rejected as non-canonical, that enjoyed a limited favor for a time.

Later, as heresy increased and some within the church began clamoring for the acceptance of spurious religious writings, the church wisely held a council to officially confirm their acceptance of the 27 New Testament books. The criteria they used allowed them to objectively distinguish what God had given them from that of human origin. They concluded that they would stay with the books that were universally accepted. In so doing, they determined to continue in "the apostles' teaching" (Acts 2:42).


http://www.gotquestions.org/canonicity-scriptural.html

 
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Rocky
(no login)
98.81.111.196

Re: Unexpected

January 5 2013, 5:23 PM 

Scripture, some of the regulars at CM have been doing the same ole "song and dance" on the same ole issues for years. "B" is not a very good dancer but he is a gifted tree climber. I just run him out on a limb to see how far he will venture. Mostly, it is all in fun. I hope this helps. happy.gif




 
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B
(no login)
74.179.242.14

Re: Unexpected

January 5 2013, 8:07 PM 

We'd all like to know exactly when Rocky ripped Jude from his Bible, because he thinks that since Jude quotes the allededly uninspired Enoch, then Jude must also be uninspired.

Instead of trying to imitate Fred Astaire, Rocky must be trying to climb that tree with B, which is all in "fun." happy.gif

 
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Anonymous
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.2.32

Re: Unexpected

January 5 2013, 8:29 PM 

I can say with some certainty that I have collected most of the historical mentions of music beginning with clay tablets. The stories were very ancient and the clay tablets might have been up to 2,000 years old when Moses was born.

I keep looking for JUST ONE Biblical or other literary mention of God being ticked or honored by religious musicians. Indeed from the serpent--a musical enchanter--in the garden of Eden onward people sing their own song and play instruments (set voice TO the tune of a string) SPECIFICIALLY to silence the prophets from the foundation of the world who presented God as just the opposite of the ones worshipped by Israel and a church near you in the morning.

Hey! don't think we are stupid: if you sing YOUR songs rather than "that which is written for our learning" you have EVERY INTENTION of making certain that the elders CANNOT teach"that which has been taught."

The only COMMANDED WORSHIP concept from the Church of Christ in the wilderness onward was to GIVE ATTENDANCE to the public reading of the Word. Reading with certain accent marks was to guarantee that no one could add a jot or tittle out of their own minds. If we are forced to listen to the words of the TEAMS performing to rehearsed perfection they make it impossible to worship anyone but those who are sucking up all of our attention.

After the Jews were setteled, the emphasis came more and more to be on the assembly of the people to study, learn, or investigate (midrash) the Torah. A Beit Midrash was most often attached to the synagogue, and the functions of both tended to overlap. Eventually, the Beit Midrash came to be viewed as more sacred than the rest of the synagogue.

The continuing recognition of the synagogue as a house of study is seen in the fact that many Jews today prefer the Yiddish term shul over the term synagogue to identify their place of meeting. Shul literally means school and probably is related to the Latin schola, from which we get the words scholar and scholastic.


Hey, we disciples know that disciples are STUDENTS as the ONLY commanded worship concept. And students OF Christ use the teachings of Christ in the Prophets and apostles (commanded) as the ONLY resource. No human has anything of value to say and therefore Christ in Isaiah 58 outlawed SPEAKING OUR OWN WORDS. The promotion of performing artists INTENDS to make certain that the LAMBS needing feeding evolve into GOATS needing entertaining. That's the Purpose Driven purpose drivers.

If you can't grasp that then rejoice with the MANY who are called but not chosen.

 
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Anonymous
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.2.32

Re: Did They Need It?

January 5 2013, 7:41 PM 

The story is told many times in the Bible but people don't read very well. The Story is told by Paul in Romans 1 which could be the Enoch story or the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. In all of these accounts the use of music is attributed to Satan--Lucifer the singing and harp-playing prostitute in the garden of Eden or the story of Lucifer "cast as profane (that musical praise word) out of heaven.

The problem is that people determined to remove the Prophets and Apostles by Christ have no trouble taking God's abandonment to worship the starry host (missed Acts 7) and say that "a" spirit told them that this was God's commandment for them to impose musical worship teams with or without "machines for doing hard work." It is certain that they use Miriam as the pattern for a musical worship minister but Miriam (bitter waters) was a SOOTHSAYER. The story of Miriam is inspired but like much of the Old Testament it is to TELL US WHAT NOT TO DO.

Because God sends strong delusions to those who tamper with the word "as it is written for our learning" and probably COMMANDS them to impose what the Spirit of Christ attributes to Lucifer.

Several "church fathers" honor the Book of Enoch at least as explaining what is recorded in the Bible but not understood.

Recognitions of Clement Book IV Entire Book

http://www.piney.com/FathRecClemBIV.html

Chapter XII.-Translation of Enoch.

"But that He might show that these things were done on account of the ungrateful, He translated to immortality a certain one of the first race of men,
because He saw that he was not unmindful of His grace, and because he hoped to call on the name of God; while the rest, who were so ungrateful that they could not be amended and corrected even by labours and tribulations, were condemned to a terrible death.

Yet amongst them also He found a certain one, who was righteous with his house, whom He preserved, having enjoined him to build an ark, in which he and those who were commanded to go with him might escape, when all things should be destroyed by a deluge: in order that, the wicked being cut off by the overflow of waters, the world might receive a purification; and he who had been preserved for the continuance of the race, being purified by water, might anew repair the world.

Chapter XIII.-Origin of Idolatry.

"But when all these things were done, men turned again to impiety; and on this account a law was given by God to instruct them in the manner of living.

But in process of time, the worship of God and righteousness were corrupted by the unbelieving and the wicked, as we shall show more fully by and by.

Moreover, perverse and erratic religions were introduced, to which the greater part of men gave themselves up, by occasion of holidays and solemnities, instituting drinkings and banquets,

following pipes, and flutes, and harps, and diverse kinds of musical instruments, and indulging themselves in all kinds of drunkenness and luxury.

Hence every kind of error took rise; hence they invented groves and altars, fillets and victims, and after drunkenness they were agitated as if with mad emotions.

By this means power was given to the demons to enter into minds of this sort, so that they seemed to lead insane dances and to rave like Bacchanalians; hence were invented the gnashing of teeth, and bellowing from the depth of their bowels; hence a terrible countenance and a fierce aspect in men, so that he whom drunkenness had subverted and a demon had instigated,

was believed by the deceived and the erring to be filled with the Deity.


Especially applied to the women leaders they claim that they are the PROPHETS and the command is to USE them. In all recorded the women--and effeminate males--are called by Paul as being QUITE MADE. Anyone who thinks their composition REPLACING what Scripture has commanded and has magical POWER are indeed MANIAS.

The people following the IDENTICAL PATTERN say that musical worship teams" can lead you into the presence of God. They think a "holy spirit person" is their "vain imagination."

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;

Those who claim to lead you into WORSHIP or the presence of God when there is ONE MEDIATOR are also guilty of despising the Word which Christ in Jeremiah 23 calls blaspheming the holy spirit of Christ. That's why they WILL NOT ever change because it is no longer in their interest.

 
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Anonymous
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.2.32

Re: Did They Need It?

January 5 2013, 10:37 PM 

Too bad, too sad: history knows no exception and the "worship pretenders" cannot even define the Assembly for which Jesus died. That's prophetical of Biblical proportions.

http://www.piney.com/BabSonsOfGod.html

As a result of the Nadab-Abihu prophetic type, the Day of Atonement was instituted and the Scapegoat was instituted: this was turning the sins over to the Devil or Azazel. The musical performers in Revelation 18 as sorcerers are also defined as scapegoats trying to redeem the institution. The goat was a cappella: isn't that wonderful? The word Anathema speaks of a person or object devoted to a religious institution to ADORN the house and worship. Such devoted objects and REAL PEOPLE could not be redeemed and must be burned.

1 Moreover Azazyel (Tubal-Cain etal.) taught men to make swords, knives, shields, breastplates, the fabrication of mirrors, and the workmanship of bracelets and ornaments, the use of paint, the beautifying of the eyebrows, the use of stones of every valuable and select kind, and all sorts of dyes, so that the world became altered.

In the Sons of The Gods:

(r) Genun (Tubal-Cain etal.) the Canaanite, son of Lamech the Blind, living in the Land of the Slime Pits,
was ruled by Azael from his earliest youth,
and invented all sorts of musical instruments.

When he played these, Azael entered into them too,
so that they gave forth seductive tunes entrancing the hearts of all listeners.


Genun would assemble companies of musicians,
who inflamed one another with music until their lust burned bright like fire,
and they lay together promiscuously.

He also brewed beer, gathered great crowds in taverns, gave them to drink,
and taught them to forge iron swords and spear-points, with which to do murder at random when they were drunk.


That is the ETERNAL pattern and that is why the Spirit OF Christ told you that Lucifer was the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden." Personified as the king of Babylon he would go into the PIT along with his harps and "cast alive" harpists. This ACTUAL burial has been excavated. The "cast alive harpists" are in the middle. They are described as being burned and consumed by maggots while still conscious.

[linked image]

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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