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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Apostolic Tradition vs. Man-Made Tradition

January 8 2013, 4:46 PM 

Diabolic Agency in Storms: BAPTIZING BELLS.

Thomas Paine: the father of your Civil and Religious Liberty.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Jan 8, 2013 4:48 PM

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Re: Did They Need It?

January 8 2013, 9:11 AM 

Donnie, you listed below the books not included beyond the 66.....If that is what YOU want for YOUR truth, then that is your decision. The rest of us have accepted the 66 COMPLETE works/books of His present and beautiful Word that God set upon faithful men's hearts. Those books below were not decided upon not because of what man would have....but what God directed, in their hearts and mind, to act upon. This was done because GOD wanted it done. You and many others like you just will never accept that God, in His Power, Majesty, and Wisdom, knew what He was doing when those 66 books became His Complete Word. Will it be Dave or Annie today?

1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
Wisdom (of Solomon)
Ben Sira
Baruch, includes Letter of Jeremiah (Additions to Jeremiah)
Additions to Daniel
Additions to Esther

Included by Orthodox (Synod of Jerusalem):

1 Esdras (see Esdras for other names)
3 Maccabees
4 Maccabees (in appendix but not canonical)
Prayer of Manasseh
Psalm 151

Included by Russian and Ethiopian Orthodox:

2 Esdras

Dave [a.k.a. Annie Mouse]


Dave Fields, it really got your attention this time!!! You asked, "Will it be Dave or Annie today?" Great question. Now, what do you think of my answer?

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Jan 8, 2013 10:52 PM

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Did They Need It?

January 8 2013, 4:08 PM 

My copies of the Apocrypha some annotated.

The present Latin Vulgate: Erasmus worked from the Latin since there was no Greek New Testament (as a book). I believe that my NEV has the same CANON.

Latin Vulgate

Genesis [Genesis]
Exodus [Exodus]
Leviticus [Leviticus]
Numbers [Numbers]
Deuteronomy [Deuteronomy]
Joshua [Joshua]
Judges [Judges]
Ruth [Ruth]
1 Samuel [1 Samuel]
2 Samuel [2 Samuel]
1 Kings [1 Kings]
2 Kings [2 Kings]
1 Chronicles [1 Chronicles]
2 Chronicles [2 Chronicles]
Latin Vulgate [Prayer of Azariah]
Latin Vulgate [Prayer of Azariah]
Tobit [Tobit]
Judith [Judith]
Esther [Esther]
Job [Job]
Psalm [Psalm]
Proverbs [Proverbs]
Ecclesiastes [Ecclesiastes]
Canticles [Song]
Wisdom [Wisdom]
Ecclesiasticus [Sirach]
Isaiah [Isaiah]
Jeremiah [Jeremiah]
Lamentations [Lamentations]
Baruch [Baruch]
Ezekiel [Ezekiel]
Daniel [Daniel]
Hosea [Hosea]
Joel [Joel]
Amos [Amos]
Obadiah [Obadiah]
Jonah [Jonah]
Micah [Micah]
Nahum [Nahum]
Habakkuk [Habakkuk]
Zephaniah [Zephaniah]
Haggai [Haggai]
Zechariah [Zechariah]
Malachi [Malachi]
1 Maccabees [1 Maccabees]
2 Maccabees [2 Maccabees]
Matthew [Matthew]
Mark [Mark]
Luke [Luke]
John [John]
Acts [Acts]
Romans [Romans]
1 Corinthians [1 Corinthians]
2 Corinthians [2 Corinthians]
Galatians [Galatians]
Ephesians [Ephesians]
Philippians [Philippians]
Colossians [Colossians]
1 Thessalonians [1 Thessalonians]
2 Thessalonians [2 Thessalonians]
1 Timothy [1 Timothy]
2 Timothy [2 Timothy]
Titus [Titus]
Philemon [Philemon]
Hebrews [Hebrews]
James [James]
1 Peter [1 Peter]
2 Peter [2 Peter]
1 John [1 John]
2 John [2 John]
3 John [3 John]
Jude [Jude]
Revelation [Revelation]
1 Esdras [1 Esdras]
2 Esdras [Ezra]
Latin Vulgate [Prayer of Azariah

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Jan 8, 2013 4:12 PM

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Re: How Much Do They Want It?

January 8 2013, 5:10 PM 

By the 4th century, the Book of Enoch was mostly excluded from Christian canons, and nowadays it is not regarded as scripture by any Christian group, with the exception of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, the Eritrean Orthodox Church and the Concerned Members Internet Web Site........happy.gif

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Re: How Much Do They Want It?

January 8 2013, 8:06 PM 

Once again, MEN decided that Enoch and other books were not Scripture.

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Re: How Much Do They Want It?

January 8 2013, 8:30 PM 

"B" are you bragging or complaining? happy.gif

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: How Much Do They Want It?

January 8 2013, 8:31 PM 

Old Rocky and most "elders" make CERTAIN that they fleece the widows and honest wage earners to PROCURE them a preacher who will NOT teach that which has been taught. And musicians who make certain that NO TEXT is sung as commanded and exampled until the Reformation.

So, how many of the 66 books -- especially the prophets and apostles does Rocky make certain are presented AS COMMANDED.

Colossians 4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.
1Thessalonians 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.

Now, it takes LOTS of P.hds to whine THERE AIN'T NO CENI so I gonna SELL you that which is NOT COMMANDED.

If you had nothing but the book of Enoch you would understand that musical performance is said to be SATANIC. How many sermons would you need to say, NO, God commanded instrumental worship.

In the words of Paul, the MANY fleeced Corinth because "fools love to be fooled." ain't it the trut?

Oh! holy Rocky Top: it DON'T say "thou shalt not SANG the letters after you rewrite them." Guess I will never learn.

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Re: How Much Do They Want It?

January 9 2013, 11:32 AM 

Ken said:

Oh! holy Rocky Top: it DON'T say "thou shalt not SANG the letters after you rewrite them." Guess I will never learn.


Ken, #2 was my intention. happy.gif

transitive verb \spüf\

Definition of SPOOF

1: deceive, hoax

2: to make good-natured fun of [linked image] DING!..... DING!..... DING!.....[linked image]

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Re: Did They Need It?

January 8 2013, 5:13 PM 

Dave says that 66 books comprise the "complete" canon, but only because mortal men SAID those were the books of the canon. Dave, who believes the decision of fallible men long ago, STILL cannot (and never ever will) show us where the Scriptures state that the canon is absolutely complete with 66 books. For all we know, God, in His own good time, intended for man to discover other inspired books. Since the books in what we now call the "canon" were not all written at the same time, then it's possible that other books await man to come to his senses and recognize that they were also inspired and, hence, belong in the canon.

But Dave will continue to think, "Nope, nope, the canon is ONLY 66 books. That be IT, no more! All them other books be of the devil, especially Enoch!" happy.gif

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Re: Did They Need It?

January 8 2013, 7:36 PM 

Yes, maybe they will be found on "Gold Plates" and "B" can move to Salt Lake City? happy.gif

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Did They Need It?

January 8 2013, 7:56 PM 

Re-visioning church or Re-imaging church, Woodmont Hills: Rubel Shelly, Lynn Anderson:

Rubel Shelly: April 4-6, 2002 Putting on a new pair of glasses makes what was distorted now focused and clear.

We see the world as it really is -
not what our old glasses led us to see.

The Body of Christ needs to re-vision - to look through new glasses for a fresh perspective.

Lynn Anderson: The mind-set of the times threatens to strip our faith of symbols, rituals, dramas, mystery, poetry, and story,

which say about life and God what logic and reason and rationalism can never say.

"Evangelicals are beginning to build their theologies around what it means for man to be in the presence of God [rather than around the objective truth of the Word of God].

"Influenced by the wider Christian world, evangelicals who have adopted either a relational (incarnational in his words) approach or a charismatic ("neo-pentecostal") approach to their theology are more and more challenging their fellow believers to rethink the Gospel from the standpoint of their own experience with it. Their claim is that traditional evangelical theology is largely irrelevant or inadequate." (MacArthur, John, Charismatic Chaos, p. 45, Zondervan).

I have the plates even though Rubel Shelly thinks that HE has found them.

[linked image]

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Re: Did They Need It?

January 8 2013, 8:49 PM 

Well, since Dave obviously can't do it, maybe Rocky could use some of his zip-bang "wit" and show us where the Scriptures explicitly state that the "complete" canon consists of 66 books.

Or, maybe Rocky would find it much easier just to "ease on down the road" to Salt Lake City and commune with the LDS crowd for a few years. happy.gif

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Route 66 For Me

January 8 2013, 11:36 PM 

"B" I will stick with the 66 books of the Bible. I have faith in God and the Church fathers. This is my last post on this subject.

ps: No one is looking, you can come off that limb if you want to! happy.gif

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Re: Route 66 For Me

January 9 2013, 12:10 AM 

Those "church fathers" were mortal men, fallible, and subject to bias.

BTW, I gather that neither you nor Dave ever found any place where the Scriptures state that the "complete" biblical canon, the "complete" Word of God, is limited to only 66 books. No one has, and no one ever will, so don't beat yourself up over it too badly. happy.gif

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Route 55 for Me

January 9 2013, 12:13 AM 

I believe that both "B" and "Rocky" would hide the 66 books in a jar under a rock, like the Nag Hammadi texts were hidden, should some earthly power seek to destroy or eradicate them.

They would both do that. They would save the books for posterity.

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Re: Route 55 for Me

January 9 2013, 12:44 AM 

If Enoch and other books were proven to be inspired and the biblical canon expanded, you would have to hide those books in a jar under a rock to keep Dave from learning about them. Dave would go ballistic; his "tradition" of 66 would be shattered forever. happy.gif

BTW, in school we all were taught that there were nine planets in our solar system. Then suddenly there were eight, because mortal astronomers decided that Pluto was no longer a conventional planet. Although God created the heavenly bodies, man decided what was a "planet" and what wasn't. Man also decided which ancient books were "God-inspired" and which were not.

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Re: Did They Need It?

January 8 2013, 9:16 PM 

In a minor kind of way, as we dig up more manuscripts, the later revisions of the Bible include much more (and as well less) scriptures with more evidence that comes to out knowledge. That is, Mark 16, and John 8, are not in all the early manuscripts.

Enoch is different from new evidence, in that the book has been around for some time now.

The councils in the fourth century did have their agendas, and what is worrisome is that they may have excluded some books just because they did fit into the church hierarchical structuring. But I personally don't know any books that fit into this category--because those that did not fit into the hierarchical structuring are also the same books that appear to be inauthentic--that is not early enough, or not directly or indirectly connected to some great figure, such as Paul or Peter.

The Nag Hammadi texts were uncovered in the 1900s, but the pre-Nicene "church fathers" had long ago decided that these texts were contrary to the earliest writings.

One test was always used [at least we hope]--that the book had to be in doctrinal agreement with books that we have in our present New Testament. Then there is also the problem, that all are aware of--do our current 26 books agree with one another. We always agree that one rule of understanding them is this--take the explanation where they all agree with one another.

The books also had to be "authentic"--that is endorsed by time [that is they had to be early books]--and at least indirectly connected to some early leader, such as Paul or Peter. And books are still being debated as to whether they are adequately connected to early dates and early leaders.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Did They Need It?

January 8 2013, 7:45 PM 

We can use Enoch as one of the UNIVERSAL literate and spiritual writers to DARE any musicator to find JUST ONE scholar to TRUMP the 100% use of MUSICAL PERFORMANCE other than by warriors, sacrificial exorcists, making war or seducing males by prostitutes. The Spirit OF Christ,after all, Identified the king of Tyre with LUCIFER as "the singing and harp playing prostitute."

We do not need the Universal Spirit to tell us that musical performers arouse all of our pleasure centers. Why do they do that? They do that to force YOU to engage in THEIR "making the lambs dumb before the slaughter." The Vineyard lady aka wineskinners BOAST that the new style praise singing is to force you into a SEXUAL-LIKE CLIMAX WITH THE SPIRIT. Plato told us all about that.

Tertullian in De Spectaculis: Ritual battles of idolatry

Chapter III. Direct Commands of God and Necessary Inferences
Fortified by this knowledge against heathen views, let us rather turn to the unworthy reasonings of our own people;
.....for the faith of some, either too simple or too scrupulous,
.....demands direct authority from Scripture for giving up the shows,
.....and holds out that the matter is a doubtful one,
.....because such abstinence is not clearly and in words imposed upon God's servants.

Well, we never find it expressed with the same precision,

"Thou shalt not enter circus or theatre, thou shalt not look on combat or show;"
as it is plainly laid down, "Thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not worship an idol; thou shalt not commit adultery or fraud." Ex. xx. 14.

But we find that that first word of David bears on this very sort of thing: "Blessed," he says, "is the man who has not gone into the assembly of the impious, nor stood in the way of sinners, nor sat in the seat of scorners." Ps. i. 1.

[Necessary Inferences]

Though he seems to have predicted beforehand of that just man, that he took no part in the meetings and deliberations of the Jews, taking counsel about the slaying of our Lord,

yet divine Scripture has ever far-reaching applications: after the immediate sense has been exhausted, in all directions it fortifies the practice of the religious life, so that here also you have an utterance which is not far from a plain interdicting of the shows.

If he called those few Jews an assembly of the wicked,

how much more will he so designate so vast a gathering of heathens! Are the heathens less impious, less sinners, less enemies of Christ, than the Jews were then? And see, too, how other things agree. For at the shows they also stand in the way.

For they call the spaces between the seats going round the amphitheatre, and the passages which separate the people running down, ways. The place in the curve where the matrons sit is called a chair.

Therefore, on the contrary, it holds, unblessed is he who has entered any council of wicked men, and has stood in any way of sinners, and has sat in any chair of scorners.

Definining the theater
Ps 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly,
.....nor standeth in the way of sinners,
.....nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Ps 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Ps 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season;
.....his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Ps 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,
.....nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Ps 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous:
.....but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

We may understand a thing as spoken generally, even when it requires a certain special interpretation to be given to it.

For some things spoken with a special reference contain in them general truth.
When God admonishes the Isrealites of their duty, or sharply reproves them,
.....He has surely a reference to all men; inferences
.....He surely pre-condemns every sinning nation, whatever.

If, reasoning from species to genus, every nation that sins against them is an Egypt and Ethiopia;
so also, reasoning from genus to species, with reference to the origin of shows, every show is an assembly of the wicked.

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Re: Did They Need It?

January 8 2013, 10:28 PM 

B, oh many times, when explaining your position of a capella ONLY vocal singing, have you used the following Scripture

Revelation 22
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Tis what happens, B, when you abuse comes back to bite you.
This same Scripture would/will be used to prove the final and COMPLETE Word of God.

As far as you wanting to add one will stop you.

_____Dave Fields________

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Jan 8, 2013 11:00 PM

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

The Bible Mentions Several Names of Books That....

January 8 2013, 11:37 PM 


The Bible mentions several names of books, some of which are in the Bible and some of which are not in the Bible. What are the chances that the biblical canonizers will include the following books once or if ever they're found?

  1. the book of Jasher (Josh. 10:13)
  2. the book of the acts of Solomon (I Kings 11:41)
  3. the book of Nathan the prophet (I Chron. 29:29)
  4. the book of Gad the seer (I Chron. 29:29)
  5. the book of Shemaiah the prophet and of Iddo the seer (II Chron. 12:15)
  6. the book of Jehu the son of Hanani (II Chron. 20:34)
  7. the book of the records of thy fathers (Ezra 4:15)

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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