Re: Did They Need It?
|January 21 2013, 11:53 PM |
One note of consolation for Dave Fields.
I haven't found anyone else has endorsed "B" in his openness to expand the scriptures beyond the 29 New Testament books. As "B" said,
It seems that Dave gets his back up whenever someone mentions "Enoch." Just roll with it, dude. Don't be (too) embarrassed that ya couldn't show us where the Scriptures explicitly limit the biblical canon to only 66 books. Rocky couldn't do it, either. If ya don't think Enoch (who was INSPIRED enough to make a prophecy about God that Jude quoted) deserves a place in the biblical canon, well, you do have free will, which means you are "free" to make all the decisions you want...no matter how really, really wrong they may be.
Is there any support for these statements? His statement wouldn't have anything to do with his wanting us to stop discussing the nature of the Spirit. . . . or would it?
Just a thought.
Re: Did They Need It?
|January 22 2013, 9:12 AM |
Would Scripture's faith be shot if there actually were more than 66 books in the biblical canon?
Remember that for the longest time, men thought that the earth was flat. It was heresy to think otherwise. Then men thought that the earth was the center of the universe and that the sun rotated around the earth. It was heresy to think otherwise. But with careful study, men eventually accepted the fact that the earth is round and rotates around the sun.
Right now to many, it is heresy to think that the biblical canon could ever have more than 66 books. That belief is founded on man's opinions based on his limuted knowledge. But with continued, careful study...
I still haven't found anyone (Dave, Rocky, Scripture, others...) who can show where the Scriptures emphatically state that the biblical canon consists ONLY of 66 books.
Whether you continue to discuss the Holy Spirit or stop is of no concern to me. But sometimes it is a bit amusing to watch people wasting their time on debates that have no finality.
Book of Revelation
|January 22 2013, 7:48 PM |
The book of Revelation does warn about adding to and subtracting from--I would take it to mean the book of Revelation alone, at least specifically.
B.B. Baxter said that every book that we have in the New Testament makes a claim, at least implicitly, that it is inspired.
When you find a book, B, that makes that claim I would be glad to sit down with you and see if it is worthy to be included. Ha! Ha!
Or who would decide that it should be added? I'm sure our decision would not be final.
If the book conflicts with any of the 27 books, then it should be excluded. [I'm overlooking the fact that some of the New Testament books have very different points of view about various subjects, but would not go so far as to declare them as contradictions.]
There are some people out there that say 2 Timothy 3:16ff say that we are "thoroughly" furnished to all good works, and they would contradict you sharply about any possible future additions.
My only comment is that I haven't seen anyone walk with you that a new book can be added.
|January 22 2013, 8:03 PM |
Can I prove with 2 Timothy 3:16-17 that we are completely (thoroughly) furnished and equipped for every good work? Would you accept that?
Now what about God and His providence? Would he allow us to go almost 2000 years without something that would profit us?
How do you deal with additions through the ages, such as the Nag Hammadi texts, and the canons, and The Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price?
Just asking, if you don't think that you will be spending your time doing something constructive, as you have mentioned before.
Isn't this a "soft issue" rather than a "hard issue."
I would assume that you are happy that the book of Enoch has not been included in our New Testament.
|January 22 2013, 9:51 PM |
Scripture asked, "Would [God] allow us to go almost 2000 years without something that would profit us?"
How do you know that God didn't give us many other books, but man in his folly was too ignorant or stupid to recognize them as inspired? Man's attitude went something like this: "We like these particular 66 books, so they are inspired and belong in the canon. However, we don't like that other set of books over there, so they are not inspired and should be pitched out!"
2 Tim. 3:16-17 doesn't tell us that the complete biblical canon consists of 66 books. Keep trying.
As far as Enoch goes, if it is ever proven to be inspired, then I'll welcome it into the canon. Others undoubtedly would suffer a breakdown and go to pieces.
|January 22 2013, 11:04 PM |
The idea that there may be additions may be correct according to your logic. Maybe this is theoretical but not practical.
But it is not a very reassuring point of view, and many might walk away.
I'll doubt that you will be included on any heresy panel.
I can't endorse it, although I might understand it.
I'll leave it [for now].
|January 23 2013, 8:40 AM |
If people walk away, they walk away. After all, many people walk away when they hear the Gospel. They consider and say, "Naw, a life of obeying somebody upstairs and being goody-good just ain't for me!"
So be it.
|January 23 2013, 12:44 PM |
Could this be the problem with the change agents?
They had rather have people walk away than not to be able to get what they want.
Even to the destruction and depopulation of the church they feel entitled to get their way.
|January 23 2013, 1:12 PM |
Some had trouble equating real bread with the word of God; and real blood with the sacrifice on the cross. For this reason they no longer walked with Him.
John 6:66 Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, Would ye also go away? 68 Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69And we have believed and know that thou art the Holy One of God. ASV
Some will leave church for what appears to be the most frivolous reason--like they got shunned, or someone hurt their feelings, or in the extreme, that God let their father die, and so forth.
Others will stay regardless of most every situation--through persecution, lack of being respected, until the very end.
Re: Walking away
|January 23 2013, 1:57 PM |
Property is always collected with the PROMISE that WE want to do good work for the Lord. Before the change agents went to law to CHANGE the by laws or CONTRACT, church was a ONE ANOTHER event.
The purpose driven cult and Promise Keepers shows how to collect the property, change the by laws and then say WOW! I know that I made a promise to YOU but that was THEN and this is NOW. (Rick Atchley).
Then since YOU let YOUR property slip through your praying hands, then YOU have to get over it or GET OUT.
It is OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS that this is happening by people claiming to be Christians who learned their CRAFTY CRAFT at ACU etal.
The EMBODIMENT planned to DIVERT my monies collected FOR THE LOUR--DE-UH.
When we had our combined worship with the Christian church [to Pass Judgment] their pastor talked about great sayings from our heritage (we both come from the Restoration movement).
He included the saying we are silent where the Bible is silent. That might have surprised some of our folks. How could he use that phrase?
.....Wouldnt it mean he should give up the instrument?
.....He gave me a different understanding of the quote.
If the Bible is silent on something
.....we shouldnt take that issue and make it an essential doctrine.
.....Instead we should also be silent on it and not allow our opinions to divide us.
.........In other words, regardless of how you view silence,
...;;;..you shouldnt make it a matter of fellowship or salvation.
We shouldnt draw lines in the sand based on what God has not said.
.....If He didnt feel the need to comment on it then why do we?
.....I think the exact words were where the Bible speaks, we speak;
.....where the Bible is silent, we shut up.
I have noted that the evidence is clear that there are two races of people involved: those of the WORLD or Kosmos for whom Jesus refused to pray and the WISE or Sophists (speakers, singers, instrument players) FROM WHO GOD HIDES HIMSELF. John calls the speakers, singers and instrument SORCERERS and says they will (are) cast alive into the Lake of Fire.
The above Logic is the logic of the WORLD: they decide to IMPOSE something and YOU MUST KEEP SILENT. And they WILL enforce their LAW OF SILENCE.
Re: Walking away
|January 23 2013, 2:18 PM |
"B", son, you better circle the wagons! Set up a strawman! Do something! They are coming for you! I just don't see the logic in you being the fall guy!
Re: Walking away
|January 23 2013, 2:44 PM |
No need to play cowboys and Indians by circling wagons, setting up strawmen, calling for help from the Lone Ranger and Tonto, or singing "Home on the Range" and spittin' tobacco around the ole campfire. Neither those tactics nor haggling over the price of tea in China will ever prove that the biblical canon is complete with only 66 books.
Logic and the Fall Guy
|January 23 2013, 3:30 PM |
Concerning the mystery of the "fall guy."
Matthew 13:10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11And he answered and said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that which he hath. 13Therefore speak I to them in parables; because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Re: Logic and the Fall Guy
|January 23 2013, 6:01 PM |
Is Scripture trying to tell us that Matt. 13:10-13 has the words "66 books" hidden somewhere in it and all we have to do, if we have been "given to know," is to "see" it?
Well, keep trying!
Re: Walking Away
|January 23 2013, 6:08 PM |
Who knows? Maybe a lost book of Paul or Peter will be found!
Re: Logic and the Fall Guy
|January 23 2013, 6:13 PM |
Well, that didn't take long to figure out who "it" was leading this hatchet job!
What's your point, Rocky? Please explain.
|This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Jan 24, 2013 12:15 AM|
Re: Walking Away
|January 23 2013, 6:43 PM |
Ya never know. They may be found in excavations of ancient ruins or finally recognized as inspired from that pile of previously "rejected" books.
Let's hope that the "rejected" Apocryphal books [that are in Roman Catholic versions] are not included in non-Catholic translations/versions.
Please do not respond to this post.
"B" has the final word, alright?
|This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 18.104.22.168 on Jan 23, 2013 11:51 PM|
|January 24 2013, 12:07 AM |
I have an idea -- there may be words hidden somewhere in the Holy Scripture: "66 books may not be complete; in latter times some may excavate some more before the world ends and decide a few more books are to be canonized."
(Please do not respond to this nonsensical assertion.}
Who Might Volunteer?
|January 22 2013, 11:24 PM |
I'm sure that through several hundreds of years now, there have been several "writings" that committees and councils have strongly considered as canon-worthy.
Does anyone want to volunteer to do this research extensively?
Then, we form our own committee (headed by Dave Fields) and decide for ourselves [us ... earthlings] which existing books in the Bible have lost their canonized status and be removed and which books from our research should be canonized.
As we know it is not uncommon that some religious leaders, if given the choice, would remove certain chapters and verses, even certain books, from the Holy Scripture.
Of course, I was being facetious.
FYI, Dave, no one here is suggesting that the Book of Enoch should be canonized and added to the Bible. But QUOTING from Enoch is no different from quoting from the writings of the early church fathers to prove what the Bible has already said.
Re: Did They Need It?
|January 23 2013, 2:31 PM |
B said "Others undoubtedly would suffer a breakdown and go to pieces."
David Fields, Elder
|This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 22.214.171.124 on Jan 23, 2013 11:32 PM|