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B
(no login)
74.179.14.120

Re: Did They Need It?

January 23 2013, 2:57 PM 

Well, here's really what I had in mind when I said others would suffer a breakdown and go to pieces if the biblical canon were expanded.

For Dave...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyD8kmWqiKE

___________________________


I'm reminded of Pavlov's stimulus-response theory. There's something about that competitive eagerness to have "the last word." One "y happy.gif utube" after another "y happy.gif utube"!!!

I have an idea -- Pope Benedict XVI (and all his directs, the Roman Catholic Church) would suffer a breakdown and go to pieces if the Apocryphal books were removed from their Bible.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Jan 24, 2013 12:59 AM


 
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Scripture
(no login)
74.179.43.82

Re: Did They Need It?

January 25 2013, 9:07 AM 

B still has to prove that there are more than 66 books in the Bible!

happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif

 
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B
(no login)
74.240.239.220

Re: Did They Need It?

January 25 2013, 3:00 PM 

I certainly cannot prove that the biblical canon is limited to 66 books, because I haven't found anything in the Bible that says so. But surely Scripture, being a much better scholar, can do that. So show us exactly where the Bible says the "complete" biblical canon consists ONLY of 66 books.

BTW, Rocky has grown weary and wants us to move on from this subject, but apparently Scripture wants us to keep going. happy.gif

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

More Research Needed

January 25 2013, 5:32 PM 

It's absurd to let the Holy Scripture show us explicitly and absolutely the total number of books in the biblical canon. As I recall, no one has asked you to find in the Scriptures where it says that there are more than 66 books in the Bible. We all know that we will never find it in Scripture where the number of books in the canon is specified or revealed -- NOT 66 books, NOT less than 66 books, NOT more than 66 books.

The discussion should focus more on evidences, one way or the other, OUTSIDE of the Bible. There's been much debating and documentation online where humankind is in favor of certain books that should or that should not be in the biblical canon.

Looking for a specific number of canonical books that should or should not be in the Bible in The Book itself is impossible. That must end. That should not even be a factor under consideration.

I propose that it would be more beneficial in our study to research what's available out there, pros and cons, and make that presentation here. We are all smart enough to be aware that there have been several, several "books" under canonical consideration through several centuries.

Following that format [as suggested in the preceding paragraph] may even provide an answer to Scripture's challenge: "B still has to prove that there are more than 66 books in the Bible!" [i.e., outside of the Bible specifying that number]

I'm afraid that's what's been lacking in the discussion of this issue."

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.247.8

Re: More Research Needed

January 25 2013, 6:49 PM 

It is certainly not absurd to ask, "Do the Scriptures specify exactly how many books comprise the biblical canon?" It is a simple, straightforward question that has a simple, straightforward answer: NO. It would have been great if the Scriptures did, but, alas, they do not. Now if it is absurd to expect or demand the Scriptures to specify a certain number of books in the canon, then it is just as absurd for anyone to say, "The canon is complete at 66 books, no more, no less." Since the Scriptures don't tell us the exact number of books in the canon, then we really don't know the exact number. It is possible that other books previously rejected could still become part of the canon, OR that books could still be discovered in ancient ruins at some future date.

The point is that, while we embrace the CURRENT canon of 66 books, we need to keep an open mind about what really is "complete."

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: More Research Needed

January 25 2013, 7:23 PM 

If the "simple, straightforward answer is: NO" (and that answer is coming from YOU), why do you keep bringing it up? Of course, the answer would be "NO" if the question were posed as: "Do the Scriptures specify...."

Actually, that was not your original question. You said: "... show us where the Scriptures explicitly state that 66 books (Genesis through Revelation) comprise THE COMPLETE biblical canon."

I believe that many here are interested in your presenting the pros and cons from your extensive research. You're an excellent "research" man -- we know. So, from your research, the readers may want to know what validation or good reasons are available that might convince the doubters that there could be more books to be included in the biblical canon.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.62.116

Re: More Research Needed

January 25 2013, 8:18 PM 

Dave, Rocky, and Scripture had either stated or implied with assurance that the canon was "complete" at 66 books. I simply kept challenging them to SHOW were the Scriptures emphatically stated that. Since they could not, and no one else can either, then such a statement is based not on absolute biblical fact but on conjecture; it is based on the opinions of men. We instead should say that 66 books comprise the CURRENT canon. Our minds still must be kept open to other books (either from the past or unearthed at some future date) that may eventually be proven to be inspired.

Do I absolutely KNOW that other books are inspired? NO. But since the Scriptures do not tell us one way or the other, then if we really want to be honest, we CANNOT definitively say the canon is "complete" at 66 books.


 
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B
(no login)
74.179.62.116

Re: More Research Needed

January 25 2013, 9:10 PM 

Here's what I'll do: I'll see if I can fit researching other books for the canon into my already busy schedule. I can't guarantee it, but if I can, I'll let you know. happy.gif

 
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Scripture
(no login)
74.179.43.82

Re: More Research Needed

January 25 2013, 11:15 PM 

We already know.

I like your Spirit. happy.gif

 
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Rocky
(no login)
98.81.68.193

Clear Case

January 25 2013, 5:52 PM 

of "God did say not to". Right "B"?

 
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Scripture
(no login)
74.179.43.82

Supporting Scripture from non-Canonical Literature

January 25 2013, 9:42 PM 

Originally, Ken was quoting from antiquity, including probably Assyrian, Babylonian, Chaldean/Persian, and Greek literature. I don't think he was trying to prove anything with those passages alone, but was using them to clarify and support the meaning in the Biblical texts.

We still today use extra-Biblical literature to support, clarify, and amplify Scripture. We also use history, and various social, human, and psychological sciences.

This topic (entitled "Did they need it?") begins in discussing instrumental music and the miracle of turning water into wine. Then it evolved quickly into this extended session on basis for accepting into canon, and even the number of books in the canon. We certainly do look much more seriously at the 66 books when answering a religious question, but there are many passages that are very difficult to understand without also using the secular literature.

The ancients had a different mind-set compared to our scientific method of logic, measurement, and proof. They appealed to signs (Jews), power (Romans), and wisdom (Greeks), quite apart from our logic today. As such, knowing the literature of antiquity is invaluable.

This discussion has been helpful.

 
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Rocky
(no login)
98.81.68.193

Sequence of Events = Moderator Discretion

January 24 2013, 11:25 PM 

Donnie, I've been known to "tweak it" sometimes. It's all good. Let's move on. happy.gif

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Re: Did They Need It?

January 26 2013, 10:34 AM 

B said "I simply kept challenging them to SHOW were the Scriptures emphatically stated that. Since they could not, and no one else can either, then such a statement is based not on absolute biblical fact but on conjecture; it is based on the opinions of men."

I, anonymous (Annie Mouse for Donnie's relief and humor), have posted several times the following (for which B or William Crump has never responded...ignoring is not a response but only childishness)

Additionally, James 1:25 states, But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. The word perfect in this passage is translated from the Greek word, teleios which signifies having reached its end (telos), finished, complete, perfect. In James 1:25, the word is referring to the complete revelation of Gods will and ways, whether in the completed Scriptures or in the hearafter (Vines, 1996, p. 466).

I left out a few paragraphs from Mr. Riley because I had already posted the whole file PLUS B (William Crump) and everyone else had seen the whole file too.

TELOS B....(William Crump) remember TELEOS if you never remember another word in your life.

With PROVING the completeness of the Word here, does this mean that even with ignoring my poofs, that men here have deliberately ignored the truth and lied? Just wondering.

=====================
Posted by:
David Fields, Elder [a.k.a. "Anonymous" pronounced "Annie Mouse"]
Clemson, SC


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Jan 26, 2013 3:21 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.14.5

Re: Did They Need It?

January 26 2013, 12:01 PM 

The Septuagint or LXX was supposed to have been translated about the year 250. Even if that cannot be proved absolutely we know that an Isaiah Scroll was found at the Dead Sea and was maybe 100 BC.

The Bible consists of many books including Court records and information about the nations connected to Israel. However, the CHURCH is built upon or Educated by the Prophets and Apostles. Paul commanded the types of literature in the BOOK of Psalms to TEACH and ADMONISH.

If you only had the Isaiah scroll (the eunuch had one) you would have the essentials of the Ekklesia which Jesus led by the same Spirit OF Christ defined inclusively and exclusively. All of those repudiating baptism and imposing self-speak songs and sermons have the recorded EVIDENCE that there is NO light in them. When they use the "Law of Silence" to go beyond the document which we have as tested for these 2,000 years, they may be religious institutions but they CANNOT be A Church of Christ as A School (only) of the Word of Christ (only) in the Prophets and Apostles.

Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

Paul said that those who had not turned (converted or baptized) to Christ could NOT READ this record not HEAR it when it was read.

[linked image]

Isn't it amazing that we have so many "scholars" rejecting or being ignorant of the record becoming rich and famous by saying When God is silent then WE have the right to speak and YOU must sit down and shut up.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.246.236

Re: Did They Need It?

January 26 2013, 1:42 PM 

Dave, nothing you have ever quoted from the Bible has ever stated that "the canon is complete at 66 books." I said I had challenged you, Rocky, and Scripture to show where the Bible said that, which is what I've been driving at all along. You have proven NOTHING except to work yourself into a hysterical lather...as usual. The passage from James means that the Gospel, the perfect law of liberty, is perfect as opposed to the imperfect Mosaic Law. Had the Mosaic Law been perfect, there would have been no need for the Gospel to come. The Gospel is "perfect," meaning that it is flawless, without error. However, neither James nor any other book in the Bible says that God gave only 66 inspired books. YOU and other mortals may believe that, but the Bible does not specify an exact number. Some of the books of old that men have rejected may still be inspired, but man was either too ignorant or too stupid to realize it. We've been all through that before. God's Word, the Gospel, is complete TO HIM. He just hasn't told us exactly how many books contain His inspired Word.

You might ask, "In that case, why would God make it all so mysterious?" God Himself is a mystery, is He not? Who of mortal men knows even a fraction about God? Why did Jesus teach in parables, which were mysteries to many in His audiences, instead of just coming right out and telling them what He meant? Let's just say that the exact number of books in God's Word is also a mystery for us to consider.


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.14.5

Re: Did They Need It?

January 26 2013, 1:46 PM 

Another example of reading the Word as the way to bring us into a life of Discipleship:

[linked image]

 
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Scripture
(no login)
74.179.43.82

Completed Canon versuse Silence on Instruments

January 26 2013, 3:33 PM 

This argument that the canon is not complete does neutralize the arguments of those who base opposition to SOLELY on the "silence" of the scriptures. If more scriptures are to come, then we can't be sure, about what is authorized, since newer books must be considered, and they are now unavailable. So, I would think that B, should not base his opposition to instruments on the silence of the pattern on the basis of our 66 books ALONE. That is, if he wants to be consistent, he should not.

But if he wants to step outside the New Testament (or for others outside Acts 2 through Jude), then he must base opposition on TIMELESS (nondispensational) statements AGAINST instruments, not on silence alone. This would bring him into Ken's world of arguing from Old Testament and Greek sources. I don't know if he is trying to defend Ken about using outside sources, but Ken I think rejects that he places these Greek sources on the same level as the 66 books. This discussion started on January 5, 2013, if you will notice early in the topic. Rocky is the big instigator of this. I think he supports instruments, where he says Ken should not be using sources outside the 66.

Rejecting instruments on the basis of silence argument may be the weakest argument, and B has previously argued against instruments bases solely on silence, at least I think so. I think that he has said something like "there is no authorization for intruments in the scriptures." This may place him with some inconsistencies, since if new scriptures are to come, he doesn't now know there is silence.

All in all, if you can't argue from the 66, then surrender. Would a person who opens up the scripture to more than 66 books be a "change agent, par excellence."

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.15.147

Re: Completed Canon versuse Silence on Instruments

January 26 2013, 6:17 PM 

You are correct. At one level one could argue against instruments simply by understanding a Qahal, Synagogue, Ekklesia or Church in the Bible and early history: it is defined as a Word Of God Only assembly. The commands in the New Testament prove it.

At another level Jesus commanded that we should command others to believe and obey what HE commanded to be taught. That would eliminate instruments.

At another level, we learn from just reading the Old Testament that it was because of instrumental idolatry that God turned the Israelites over to the worship of the STARS under various names; that He gave The Book of The Law because of this idolatry. That the Israelites were to be blind and deaf until ANOTHER PROPHET like Moses arose; and that all of the instrumental passages relate to the CAUSE or PRACTICE of Canaanite (etal) Baalism and that the sounds of wind, string and percussion instruments are to alert us to God driving His enemies into "hell."

There is nothing either affirmed or refuted which is not perfectly covered in the BOUND VOLUME. Because the PROGRESSIVES have never read and cannot read the text because they tamper with God's Words, it is important to go OUTSIDE of that which Moses and Paul and Jesus defining parables proves that they CANNOT READ, to prove to those not already subverted that all recorded evidence in Babylonian clay tablets, contemporaneous writers, the Greek Classics, all of the "Church Fathers" and the FOUNDERS of all denominations affirm.

By reading the text you have to hallucinate instruments (machines for doing hard work) as AIDES in the assembly. Anyone who cannot "define" words as they were used in the texts Paul and others, are marked as deceivers and liars when they SELL their opinions.

A good lexicon or dictionary lists ALL of the most important ways in which a word is used in the Greek or Latin texts: they do not DEFINE the word just because it CAN be used to fit the deceivers thinking. If in this list of uses and THE TEXT in which it is used do not, never ever, use that word to support the deceiver then HE-SHE-IS is just puffing smoke [brimstone]

The PSALLO Word as THE foundation of the imposers of musical performance at no time or place in recorded history had even the SLIGHTEST of musical content: it means to pluck or smite a hair or rope or string with your FINGERS and NEVER with a plectrum.

If they find that someone PLUCKED the Harp trying to seduce a young male whose hairs had been PLUCKED (most of the NACC's list of proofs), then it makes a SOUND. You have to define PLUCK, tell us what we are to PLUCK, if it is a harp string you MUST define a melody which might consist of ONE note:

pluck, pluck, pluck, pause

Because dictionaries and other information collected these 3 thousand or more years are the ONLY way to define the FIRST word, you have to go OUTSIDE of the Bound Book to understand.

Most of the sermons I look at or listen to simply read parts of a chapter and then FILL IN with examples which violates ALL of the ways in with SPEAK in the LOGOS sense is used.

I am going to review a sermon by David Skidmore one of the featured speakers at winterfest 2013: the others are being SUPPORTED to subvert Churches of Christ about worship, women and instrumental music. They BOAST that they have been teaching the youth to LEAVE OUR MOVEMENT. That would be fine if they could read the instructions for the EXIT sign.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Re: Did They Need It?

January 26 2013, 2:32 PM 

Telos...COMPLETE.

B said "However, neither James nor any other book in the Bible says that God gave only 66 inspired books."

William Crump (B), for you to respond to my message within a few hours or so means that, possibly, it really isn't me being hysterical, as you claim (you think making people wait on answers or not answering at all... makes you superior).

Telos means COMPLETE....whatever your explanation. Yes, the NT is completed from the Mosaic Law. As I have said, and your restated, the Gospel, is flawless....and Complete. I, nor any other man, needs to state how many books it took for that completion. That is irrelevant. It is COMPLETE because if our Lord were to come back today He, YOU and the whole world would have had EVERTYHING needed, in those 66 books, for their salvation to be COMPLETE. No one would have ANY excuses for saying that they needed more, from ANY other source or scrolls from the dead sea to make a difference in where their souls would ultimately be found in the end. The Word IS COMPLETE.

Praise God!!!

Posted by:
David Fields, Elder
Clemson, SC


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Jan 26, 2013 3:14 PM


 
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B
(no login)
74.179.203.228

Re: Did They Need It?

January 26 2013, 4:17 PM 

The Word is complete only to God, yet Dave just can't fathom that God has never told us exactly how many books make up His entire Word.

Dave, however, equates a set of books chosen by a bunch of men with "complete." We have no evidence, neither in the Scriptures nor in the history books, that God sent an angel to those guys to announce, "Ye men have chosen the correct number of 66 books, and there can never be any more books in the canon."

So what are you really afraid of, Dave? The idea absolutely terrifies you that we could still possibly canonize some of those other, ancient books someday. Face it, dude, if any of those books were newly canonized, you would suffer that proverbial breakdown, and if Enoch were ever canonized, you would suffer a double breakdown (screaming and shaking hysterically like that person on YouTube) and then lose your faith. happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif

 
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