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Letter and Spirit: David Young Holy Spirit REVIVALISM Part B

January 23 2013 at 2:35 PM
Ken  (Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
from IP address 70.193.1.106

If you want to follow this it will be without dogs chasing tails. We have said that God gives us A holy spirit or BAPTISM NOW SAVES US when we request A good conscience, consciousness or a CO-perception of the World. Jesus refused to speak to the Scribes and Pharisees (speakers, singers, players, writers as hypocrites) without a parable. Jesus HIDES the mysteries or the SPIRIT in plain TEXT. Since 'doctors of the Law take away the key to knowledge' there is no way that anyone "seeing godliness as a means of financial gain" or just occupation can grasp evening the meaning of SPIRIT. Since the once-Christian BIBLE colleges have switched to THEOLOGY (right up there with Phrenology and Astrology) there has been a BRUTAL attack on anyone who will not take the MARK and either Confirm or Conform to the heresy (sectarianism) of making A School of Christ into "a theater for holy entertainment" as its Purpose Driven abandonment.

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This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.107.21 on Dec 6, 2013 11:05 AM


 
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Scripture
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74.179.43.82

Letter and Spirit: The MEAT of the Word. Part A

January 23 2013, 3:59 PM 

A Bible Scholar is one that knows the 66 books in detail.

A Theologian is one who is "above" the 66 books, and thinks to command them. These are what are commonly called the "destructive" "Biblical critics." The theologians in the seminaries and divinity houses are dependent on research in Biblical criticism to "improve" their resumes and advancement. The fallout from this is that confidence in Bible scholarship suffers, with some loss of faith in the Word.

Of course, loss of confidence in the Word depopulates the church, to where the members in the aisles think that those who quote scriptures are "Bible thumpers", and so life in the Word is totally lost. Just talk with some of the Disciples of Christ members who bemoan the ignorance of their congregants face-to-face with the Written Word.

Holy Entertainment may tend to lead in the same direction. With emphasis on music, less attention is paid to the written word. Even as the notes of songs disappear with the printed songbooks (do-re-mi), so do the scriptures disappear from the screen. You will see Jesus instead hanging from the cross, creating grief and intense emotion, to the extent we worry that the younger and unstable will not be able to digest and confront the scene.

Interpretation turns from the logos or word to the vision. 10,000 words are not generated by these images, but feelings and emotions may be. But feelings and emotions to not lead one to applying the wisdom, or Logos, of scripture.

So Jesus said,"Because the secrets of the kingdom of heaven have been given for you to know, but it has been given to them (Matthes 13:11). That wisdom is expressed in words and not in images.


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.5.77

Letter (text) and Spirit (understanding) Part B.

January 23 2013, 11:20 PM 

I don't think that theologians (doctors of the law who take away the key to knowledge) can possibly know how ridiculous they sound. The pattern is to quote the books of scholars you would like to quote yours (someday) or to think of you as a future employe (merchants). If you want to get your Phd you are going to have to nod your head and blather all over blogville how superior old prof is.

This is Intellectual Incest and the breeding pool gets wilder and wilder with lots of two-headed laughing "stocks."

It is hard to open the New Testament with seeing the PATTERN defined inclusively and exclusively: shut down all of the performing arts and crafts to ENABLE speaking that which is written for our learning. The WORD of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles is the ONLY Purpose Driving the writers. And yet, the theologians say Christ is silent and told ME that I could impose whatever and YOU should just sit down and shut up: doesn't that mark them as part of the Crooked Race we are supposed to SAVE OURSELVES FROM?

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This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.210.3.157 on Aug 14, 2013 10:21 AM


 
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Scripture
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Letter (text) and Spirit (understandinb) Part B.

January 24 2013, 12:13 AM 

If I can digest any of this at all:

"It is hard to open the New Testament with seeing the PATTERN defined inclusively and exclusively: shut down all of the performing arts and crafts to ENABLE speaking that which is written for our learning. The WORD of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles is the ONLY Purpose Driving the writers. And yet, the theologians say Christ is silent and told ME that I could impose whatever and YOU should just sit down and shut up: doesn't that mark them as part of the Crooked Race we are supposed to SAVE OURSELVES FROM."

The pattern includes emphasis on the Written Word; it excludes everything else, which are irrelevant since emphasis must be on the "spirit" (understanding the Word). Emphasis on external symbols and substance is a return to Law, which is opposite to grace and truth. The Law comes by Moses but grace and truth by Jesus Christ. The elevation of the physical above the spiritual is referred to in Romans 12:1 where Paul says:

Romans 12:1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service. 2And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

The denial of substance leads to the elevation of grace and truth. Spiritual worship (KJV, "reasonable service") proceeds from the purely spiritual which is not rooted in noise nor vision, but in meaning such as can be transmitted through Word or Logos. Many left Jesus and discontinued walking with Him, when He rejected that substantive bread and blood, not accepting understanding that his teaching was the true or spiritual bread and that his blood was not physical the truly spiritual gift of his sacrifice on the cross (John 6). It is through His sacrifice that we have eternal life.

The transferrence of worship from the mental to sound and vision departs from speech and wisdom, which are contained in Words (the essence of the Logos).

The Law was supported by carnal elements such as substances of altar and vestments, where in the new covenant these are transferred to cross and universal priesthood. Grace was nonexistent in that all fell short of keeping the Law, but grace in the new covenant is received from the gift of Jesus Christ which is quite different from candle-burning ceremonies and modern laying-on-of-hands as practiced by modern day clergy systems. Each person in the new ekklesia is ordained through the blood of Christ to share in the glories of heaven. Truth is the acceptance that Jesus in the center of the Christian system, where acceptance of Him supplants the earthly, and substantial.

All of these facts seriously challenge modern emphases toward outward show, through audio and visual support. The teaching of Jesus is His bread, and the sacrifice of Christ is His blood. Bread is not feeling good about a church "performance" nor is the enjoyment of a church "choreography" really true sacrifice.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.16.176

Letter and Spirit Part C

January 24 2013, 10:39 PM 

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Scripture
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98.87.35.4

Letter and Spirit

August 13 2013, 9:37 AM 

Grace can be received, but that in itself does not assure salvation. It depends on what type of grace is received. God gives us a message of the cross, and that is early grace or initial grace. We receive that when we hear the message of the cross. Receiving the message puts us on a higher plain of grace, the possibility of saving grace, with the full acceptance of his gifts to us through the Word and through the Church, such as Confession of Faith, and Baptism. Upon receiving saving grace, then we are ushered onto a higher plain--that of assurance and confidence through our obedience and the application of faith. Such is seen clearly in the Lord's Supper and prayer. "The Sinner's Prayer" may be working prayer in too early, in that prayer alone without the full acceptance though the Word and Church.

Consider the following:

2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: 4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; 6By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, 7By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.163.155

Re: Letter and Spirit

August 13 2013, 12:21 PM 

John Calvin said that it is impossible to be saved without a direct operation of the Holy Spirit. Lots of people just lift that from a list of quotations and lead people into evil.

The two supernatural gifts, says Calvin is;

God gave us the Scriptures without which we could not save ourselves.
And God sent out preachers to make the Scriptures known to everyone.

So GRACE hath appeared TEACHING us how to be saved.
Is there any better example of how God remits our sins than simply obeying and submitting our bodies to be baptized?

God gave us grace to produce a tomato which seems kindy miraculous: but I have saved tomato seed from 3 years back and I never see them producing tomatos.

Ecclesiastes 3:13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.

Ecclesiastes 5:19 Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Peter says that BAPTISM SAVES US: end of argument. How does Baptism SAVE US: Peter says that baptism is the WAY that we ASK FOR A good conscience or a holy spirit.

Can there be any kind of grace for those who make a profession out of mocking baptism?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.4.205

Rubel Shelly Trinity

August 13 2013, 6:42 PM 

Rubel Shelly and Max Lucado are said by John Mark Hicks to have taught a neo-trinity.

http://www.piney.com/Tritheism-Rubel-Shelly.html

"In our image, &c." Interpreters do not agree concerning the meaning of these words. The greater part, and nearly all, conceive that the word image is to be distinguished from likeness. And the common distinction is, that image exists in the substance, likeness in the accidents of anything. They who would define the subject briefly,

say that in the image are contained those endowments which God has conferred on human nature at large, while they expound likeness to mean gratuitous gifts.

But Augustine, beyond all others, speculates with excessive refinement, for the purpose of fabricating a Trinity in man. For in laying hold of the three faculties of the soul enumerated by Aristotle, the intellect, the memory, and the will, he afterwards out of one Trinity derives many.

But Paul liken's the Holy Spirit to OUR Spirit and we are defined as body, soul and spirit and yet one.

According to John Calvin

http://www.piney.com/HSCalvin.html

The Jews make themselves altogether ridiculous, in pretending that God held communication with the earth or with angels. The earth, forsooth, was a most excellent adviser! And to ascribe the least portion of a work so exquisite to angels, is a sacrilege to be held in abhorrence. Where, indeed, will they find that we were created after the image of the earth, or of angels?

Does not Moses directly exclude all creatures in express terms, when he declares that Adam was created after the image of God?

Others who deem themselves more acute, but are doubly infatuated, say that God spoke of himself in the plural number, according to the custom of princes.

As if, in truth, that barbarous style of speaking, which has grown into use within a few past centuries, had, even then, prevailed in the world. But it is well that their canine wickedness has been joined with a stupidity so great, that they betray their folly to children.

Christians, therefore, properly contend, from this testimony, that there exists a plurality of Persons (personae in the church Fathers) in the Godhead.

God summons no foreign counsellor; hence we infer that
he finds within 1) himself something distinct; as, in truth,
his eternal (2) wisdom and (3) power reside within him.




    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.210.5.100 on Aug 15, 2013 10:29 AM


 
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Bill
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74.179.244.180

Re: Rubel Shelly Trinity

August 13 2013, 7:12 PM 

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are doing just fine whether we worry about a "Trinity" or not.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Rubel Shelly Trinity

August 14 2013, 12:22 AM 

You are correct -- why should Trinitarians worry about the man-invented Trinity doctrine approved in the Nicene Creed by the evolving Roman Catholic Church and the Emperor?

Let's just contrast the man-made "Trinity" with the Scripture-based "the Godhead":

"... to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and [1] of the Father, and [2] of Christ... As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him... Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:2-9)

 
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Bill
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74.179.13.211

Re: Rubel Shelly Trinity

August 14 2013, 12:35 AM 

Do you worry about the Trinity? I don't. If people want to believe that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute the Trinity, that's fine. I see nothing wrong with that belief. Furthermore, I don't believe our eternal salvation hangs on the issue. THAT'S why I don't worry about it.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Rubel Shelly Trinity

August 14 2013, 2:04 AM 

Good question.

No, I don't worry about the Trinity. The Bible doesn't teach it. It is man-concocted, and I cannot change man's invention. It's fine with me, too, if people want to believe in the "Three Persons."

If your prerogative is to address God's [HIS] holy Spirit as Lord, Master, God, Savior, Almighty, King, Redeemer or as one to SERVE and OBEY and WORSHIP, I can't stop you.

"[E]ternal salvation hangs on ________" is your own expression [not mine]; it is not even an argument, and it has nothing to do with the discussion. (I think "Eternal Salvation Hangs on" would make a good thread, however.)



 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.4.205

Re: Rubel Shelly Trinity

August 13 2013, 8:35 PM 

God creaded Adam (mankind) in His own image:

GEN 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the DUST of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the BREATH of life; and man became a living SOUL. (KJV) dust = body,
breath = spirit,
and soul = soul.

1Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God [Theos] of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God
your whole spirit
and soul
and body
be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord [Kurios] Jesus Christ.

If your spirit is another little person inside of your carnal body then get Obama-Cares-Not quickly.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.3.157

Re: Rubel Shelly Trinity

August 14 2013, 10:04 PM 


 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.245.249

Re: Rubel Shelly Trinity

August 14 2013, 11:16 PM 

Yes, there is only ONE Lord God--not multiple Gods--with a Son, Jesus, along with the Holy Spirit.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Rubel Shelly Trinity

August 15 2013, 12:21 AM 

Bill,

I may have missed it; would you show a single Scripture reference to God's holy Spirit as "LORD"?

Better yet, there are 32 references to "the Spirit of the Lord" throughout the Bible. Who is the real "Lord" between:

(1) the Lord [Himself]
-------- and --------------
(2) the Spirit OF the Lord?

The best ever -- in Ephesians 4:30 where it says, "... grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" ... Who is God between:

(1) God [Himself]
-------- and --------------
(2) the holy Spirit of God?

 
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Bill
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74.179.205.13

Re: Rubel Shelly Trinity

August 15 2013, 9:18 AM 

Just be satisfied that the grouping is ONE Father and ONE Son and ONE Holy Spirit. Whether they are three-in-one, one-in-three, or some other combination DOES NOT MATTER, because the New Testament gives NO indication that our eternal salvation hangs on how we perceive THEM. I guess I need to keep telling you that to reassure you and ease your mind.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Rubel Shelly Trinity

August 15 2013, 10:47 PM 

Bill,

Please stop stating the Trinity Creed and using the Creed's statement to validate the Creed itself. We all know that, and that's what we are discussing.

Your pattern of logical defense has been to quote the Creed whenever you are VERY incapable of answering numerous questions I have posed.

So far, you have not presented one iota of evidence or proof from the Bible that the Creed is scriptural. It is man-made.

So, here's another chance. Please answer the three (3) questions I asked you in the preceding post. SPECIFIC ANSWERS, please.

Not: "eternal salvation hangs on...." NOT: "DOES NOT MATTER." As that would be a response from a Scripture-illiterate. Otherwise, let us think that you are biblical scholar.


 
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Bill
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74.179.248.52

Re: Rubel Shelly Trinity

August 16 2013, 11:29 AM 

Donnie, when Christians see "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" written simply as such, it is natural for them to manifest a positive reaction with thoughts of heaven, trust, holiness, goodness, etc. Yet when YOU see Father, Son, and Holy Spirit written as such, your reaction is ironically NEGATIVE. Your attitude runs like this: "No, no, that's the TRINITY! Foul! Pagan! Catholic!"

If you believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as you say you do, then I advise you to STOP reacting negatively whenever you see Father, Son, and Holy Spirit written back-to-back like that, for they are written in the New Testament that way and in that order. As I said before, if "Trinity" is an abominable term for you, then don't use it and cast if from your mind. Therefore, don't let your bias give others the wrong impression by reacting negatively to that which you otherwise profess to believe.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

In the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ

August 17 2013, 1:42 AM 

Bill,

There is nothing wrong with the NAME "Father-Son-Holy Spirit."

The [singular] NAME ("Father, Son, Holy Spirit"), mentioned only once collectively, relative to BAPTISM, in Matt. 28:19, when Jesus was still living with His disciples,

.............. (is the same as [equates to])................

The NAME of Jesus mentioned, also relative to BAPTISM, after His resurrection [no longer living with His disciples], in these and other passages:

  • Acts.2[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

  • Acts.8[16] (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

  • Acts.10[48] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

  • Acts.19[5] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
This is not about bias, negativity or positivity. It is about inventing a man-made Trinity Creed out of that passage. The Trinity Dogma that you are espousing, Bill.

 
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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

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At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

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The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
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120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
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