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B
(no login)
74.179.15.71

Re: Then We Can Agree?

February 23 2013, 12:12 PM 

That's what Jesus told us to do. He mentioned THREE entities: Father, Son, Holy Ghost. He didn't say they were necessarily separate from each other, but He did mention THREE.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Then We Can Agree?

February 23 2013, 4:08 PM 

B,

NO ONE is arguing the number of entities or components in the long name. The argument is about the third entity: the Holy Spirit.

(a) Is the Holy Spirit -- the 3RD PERSON (or Person no. 3) in the Trinity Creed?

----------------- or ----------------

(b) Is the Holy Spirit Jesus Christ in his post-death/divine, resurrected nature -- the Comforter and Spirit of truth?

I dare say that: (a) is a man-concocted, papal/papacy-approved creed. The book of John (esp. chapters 14 and 16) explains (b) in detail -- if one is interested in learning the details.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Then We Can Agree?

February 23 2013, 12:47 PM 

Throughout the New Testament [and in the Old Testament as well], there is only ONE OCCURRENCE of the long NAME -- yet it is ONLY ONE name. Matt. 28:19-20 -- "Go ... teach ... baptizing them in the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost ... teaching them to...."

In Acts 2:38 -- "... be baptized every one of you in the NAME of Jesus Christ...."

In Acts 8:16 -- "... they were baptized in the NAME of the Lord Jesus."

In Acts 10:48 -- "... he commanded them to be baptized in the NAME of the Lord."

Other passages are too numerous to list here [you can search the "name of" and find out] that reference the "NAME of the Lord Jesus Christ."

That tells me that in both expressions ("in the NAME OF...") are synonymous and there is only one name (which is singular).

The central message is still that being baptized in ONE NAME is in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh; it was also the same Christ RESURRECTED who was the promised Comforter and the Spirit of truth (all this is in the context of John 14-16). The inclusion of the "Holy Spirit" in the LONG name was PRIOR to his death, burial and resurrection. AFTER that, there was no need to mention Christ the Spirit himself again. It is ALL "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 
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B
(no login)
74.240.208.17

Re: Then We Can Agree?

February 23 2013, 3:24 PM 

The one NAME has three components or entities: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Now if there were not three entities, I wonder why Jesus didn't phrase Matt. 28:19 as: "...baptizing them in the name of the Father WHO IS the Son and WHO IS the Holy Ghost," thus equating all three together. But Jesus didn't phrase it like that. He said, "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Three entities. Again, He didn't say they were separate and distinct from one another, but He did mention THREE nonetheless.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.166.148

Re: Then We Can Agree?

February 23 2013, 3:46 PM 

Father, Son and Spirit are NOT names CANNOT be names of people. The NAME singular of Father, Son and Spirit is Jesus Christ. There is NO OTHER NAME by which you might be saved. That is what Peter and everyone else understood and NEVER, EVER baptized in the NAME of the Father and the Name of the Son and the NAME of the Spirit which is the BREATH which connects the ONE GOD to the ONE MEDIATOR the MAN Jesus Christ.

Donnie may have to have another short course on name as SINGULAR.

[linked image]

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Let's Be More Specific

February 24 2013, 12:44 PM 

Serious,

So, the "ONE NAME" is no longer an issue. That's good. It's progress. It is clear that it is not PLURAL NAMES: (1) in the name of the Father, (2) in the name of Son, (3) in the name of the Holy Spirit.

So, the list of 3 entities is not an issue. That's good. No one has, to my knowledge, rejected the 3 entities.

The issue that remains, then, is what comprises or who the entity is. Let's narrow it all down to: (1) we know about the Father WHO is Spirit; (2) we know about the Son Jesus Christ, God manifest in the FLESH.

So far so good.

The question remains: the entity called the Holy Spirit.

Did Jesus Christ remain in the flesh after his resurrection? I believe that's the crux of the whole controversy. If Christ is not in the flesh now [he lived, died and was buried], what is his nature?

I think that the book of John explains that "mystery." Especially chapters 14-16.

It would really help the discussion, if you were specific about your questions. A good example would be a statement such as: "I do not agree that the resurrected Jesus Christ is the Comforter and Spirit of truth." Then, we can go from there. We do not disagree on general statements and premises. Therefore, we need specific questions and specific answers.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Sequence of Events to Consider Regarding: "In the Name of"

February 23 2013, 3:47 PM 

The book of John [thanks to the apostle] for explaining it all in the book. Throughout the narrative, it was always about the relationship between the Father and the Son, the communication between the Father and the Son. (Please read the entire book for clarity.) The Trinity creed designates the "Holy Spirit" as the third person in the Godhead. But upon careful study of the book, it is revealed that such "PERSON NO. 3" does not exist -- is not mentioned in that relationship and communication.
  1. God, the Father, was in the beginning with the Word (John 1:1,2). Jesus (later in 4:21-24) said: "... worship the Father ... God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

  2. Jesus Christ, the Son of God: "... the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and TRUTH.' With his disciples, Jesus was their "physical" Comforter while he also declared being "the way, the TRUTH, and the life." He promised his disciples of the "Holy Ghost" described as "another" [not an additional PERSON, but someone different in manifestation, nature and role]. He dwelt WITH them and promised them to not leave them "COMFORTLESS" [knowing he was their "comfort" literally]. He was to COME TO them and DWELL IN them -- this time as a Spirit.

    He was still living with his disciples when he commissioned them to go, teach, baptize (oh, in the [one] NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost), and teach some more.

  3. After his resurrection, as promised to his disciples, Jesus Christ was that Holy Spirit -- "the [another, meaning 'different' but not an addition] COMFORTER" as well as "the Spirit of truth."

NOTE: Jesus Christ as the Comforter and the Spirit of truth is NOT AN ADDITION AS ANOTHER PERSON in the man-concocted Trinity creed.

All later references after His resurrection (even during and after the establishment of the church) point to the truth that all is "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" -- Jesus Christ whose central message is the embodiment of God in the flesh and the Spirit in His divine nature.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.209.93

Re: Sequence of Events to Consider Regarding: "In the Name of"

February 23 2013, 4:32 PM 

Too much dissection of spiritual matters. Father, Son, Holy Ghost. Jesus mentions three. Three entities. Are they distinct and separate from each other? Does it really matter one way or the other? They exist, therefore they are. Enough said.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.166.148

Re: Sequence of Events to Consider Regarding: "In the Name of"

February 23 2013, 4:56 PM 

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Matthew 13:15 For this peoples heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Matthew 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

 
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Serious
(no login)
98.81.72.33

I Will Stand With The Words Of Jesus

February 23 2013, 5:13 PM 

Matthew 28:18-20

American Standard Version (ASV)


18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

After all the discussion about long names, short names, non names, grammatical article twisting, singular names, plural names, adding the spirit, removing the spirit, baptismal formula, implicitly blaspheme, and other smoke screens, I have decided to stick with the Words of Jesus.

Jesus commanded us to "Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". It's not that complicated and the Word will never change or expire. BTW, it also answers the question "how can God be three and yet one?". The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are "ONE".

JMHO

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.166.148

Re: I Will Stand With The Words Of Jesus

February 23 2013, 5:34 PM 

Where do you think the father people and the spirit people are? Jesus said I AM: not we are. Did the father person and the spirit person NOT teach anything at all?

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo,
I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Standing with the Word of Jesus

February 24 2013, 2:48 PM 

Serious,

Your participation is appreciated.

I agree; it is not that complicated.

Being ONE simply means UNITY or in agreement.

"In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost" is mentioned ONLY ONCE in the entire Bible -- and that was when Christ was still living with His disciples. The "Holy Spirit" as an entity in the NAME is identified as such because Christ at the time was not yet the Comforter and Spirit of truth.

After His resurrection, Christ was the Comforter and Spirit of truth -- as PROMISED to His disciples.

(1) THEN -- baptism was "in the name of the Father, Son and [Christ as] Spirit".

(2) NOW -- baptism is "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ."

"In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" -- this expression is sufficient throughout the rest of NT references [numerous]. There is no reason or wonder as to why it is NO LONGER the LONG NAME. When God [a Spirit] was manifest in the flesh and after the resurrection of Christ as the promised Comforter and Spirit of truth, the mystery of the Godhead has been revealed.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.14.70

Re: I Will Stand With The Words Of Jesus

February 23 2013, 6:30 PM 

Whether Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are ONE or separate and distinct from each other does not matter. All that matters is that they exist, just as Jesus mentioned them; therefore, they ARE. Yet the debates and arguments about them will continue until Doom's Day.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

"debates and arguments ... will continue until Doom's Day

February 24 2013, 11:14 AM 

Sorry to tell you, but you are one of the participants. You're in. It appears that you will continue to be in until Doom's Day.

Your endless participation in the discussion of instrumental music in the assembly has been evident also.

This is a discussion board. There's no restriction as to whether or not discussion of a doctrinal issue is lengthy.


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.166.148

Re: Some HISTORIC views of the Trinity: never three PEOPLE

February 23 2013, 8:41 PM 

John said that if you deny the unique One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ then you are an ANTI-Christ. I would not have you ignorant brethren. Athenagoras one of the UNIVERSAL scholars at

http://www.piney.com/HsTrinityAthen.html

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.166.148

Re: Some HISTORIC views of the Trinity: never three PEOPLE

February 23 2013, 9:18 PM 

What you think about the Godhead is a SALVATION ISSUE. When God through Christ taught is almost always the ANTITHESIS of pagan beliefs. ALL pagans believed their gods were much like them and came in families. The musical idolatry of the Egyptian etal trinity was a sin BEYOND REDEMPTION since through the plagues God had discredited all of the Egyptian gods.

The golden Calf(s) representing Apis was connected to Osiris, Isis and Horus. The SUN WAFER marked IHS makes it Isis, Horus and Set.

[linked image]

Jesus made it as CLEAR as can be that whatever you think about the god families, the true God made Himself know as ONE IMAGE which included all of the pagan families.

John says that if you deny the FATHER- SON relationship you are an ANTICHRIST. Never believe anyone who wants to capitulate by saying "it is not important."

[linked image]


 
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B
(no login)
74.179.210.27

Re: Some HISTORIC views of the Trinity: never three PEOPLE

February 23 2013, 11:22 PM 

Jesus never said, "He that believeth that God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, and is baptized shall be saved..."

Jesus never said, "He that believeth that God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each distinct and separate entities, and is baptized shall be saved..."

Whether we believe that God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same or whether they are distinct and separate entities is NOT a salvation issue. How could it be? Regarding the Godhead, Jesus never commanded us to believe in one entity or three separate entities. It IS important, however, that we believe that they all EXIST, just as Jesus mentioned them, and therefore ARE.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Some HISTORIC views of the Trinity: never three PEOPLE

February 24 2013, 11:24 AM 

NEVER SAID: When did you start agreeing with instrumental music lovers' argument: "God DID NOT say 'NOT TO' use musical instruments in the assembly"?

How do you respond to: "Instrumental music in the assembly IS NOT A SALVATION ISSUE"?

 
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B
(no login)
98.87.22.146

Re: Some HISTORIC views of the Trinity: never three PEOPLE

March 2 2013, 9:13 AM 

"God didn't say not to have instrumental music" is a double negative, which leads to a fallacious assumption: If God didn't say not to do something, then it is assumed that it is OK to do it. But such an assumption is not based on fact.

"He that believeth that God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each distinct and separate entities, and is baptized shall be saved..." It is a FACT that Jesus NEVER SAID that in the New Testament. There is no fallacious assumption about it.

To compare "God didn't say not to" with "Jesus never said" is to compare apples with oranges. Their meanings are completely different.

 
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B
(no login)
74.240.208.108

Re: Some HISTORIC views of the Trinity: never three PEOPLE

February 23 2013, 11:49 PM 

Just as God said, "I am that I am," the Godhead IS. As far as the composition of the Godhead is concerned, it matters not if we believe they are three-in-one or three distinct, separate entities.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

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Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

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The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
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Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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