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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

The Entities of the Godhead

February 24 2013, 12:16 PM 

It's all in the book of John.

Since you refuse to consider or study the details regarding the Godhead as outlined earlier, I'd like to simplify the outline in the order of entities:

  1. In the beginning was God [the Father] with the Word. The author explains that worship goes to the Father WHO is a SPIRIT and WHOM we worship in spirit and in truth. (John 1:1,2)

  2. The Son Jesus Christ was God manifest in the FLESH (John 1:14). He DWELT WITH his disciples; he was their COMFORTER [literally]; he was not only the way and the life but also THE TRUTH.

  3. The RESURRECTED Jesus Christ, NO LONGER IN THE FLESH, is that HOLY SPIRIT -- the COMFORTER and THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH. As promised to his disciples: "I will not leave you COMFORTLESS" and "I shall DWELL IN you." {Please study carefully John chapters 14-16. The narrative is plenary -- so long as you don't SPEED-READ it.)


In essence, (1) in the beginning was God the FATHER (SPIRIT); (2) the WORD became FLESH {JESUS in human form -- He died and was buried; (3) the RESURRECTED JESUS is now that HOLY SPIRIT -- no longer in the FLESH.

How significant it is to study that timeline. Jesus Christ is no longer in the flesh. Honestly, there's a colossal difference between: (a) FLESH and (b) SPIRIT. If Jesus Christ is no longer in the flesh, what other conclusion can you have of his nature?

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.14.136

Re: The Entities of the Godhead

February 24 2013, 12:48 PM 

It would be an entirely different matter if someone said s/he didn't believe in the Godhead at all. But to the person who believes that the Godhead exists, that the Godhead IS, then it is a moot point if that person's concept of the Godhead is a three-in-one entity (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) or three separate, distinct entities (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

Of course in Matt. 28:19, when Jesus mentioned the Godhead in reference to our being baptized, He explicictly named the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Now did He REALLY mean a three-in-one Godhead or a Godhead of three separate entities? Moot. For purposes of what the Godhead is in the universe and how the Godhead functions in the universe, it doesn't matter a hill of beans how we perceive the Godhead. It only matters that we believe the Godhead EXISTS. It only matters that we believe the Godhead is comprised of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, be they three-in-one OR three separate entities.

Beyond believing that the Godhead simply exists, debating the Godhead further is akin to debating how large heaven is or how many angels reside in heaven. It is interesting to speculate if you have lots of time on your hands, but it is futile in the long run.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Making an Endless Discussion End

February 24 2013, 1:53 PM 

With your participation, the discussion of the Trinity is akin to your discussion of instrumental music -- endless. In other words, you are bothered by the endless discussion of the Trinity Creed that Protestant Churches ACQUIRED on INHERITED from the Roman Catholic Church/papacy. But you are not bothered by discussing instrumental music in the assembly -- also endless. In the long run, you will be "reminded" by IM lovers that: with or without instruments, there is still singing.

You might as well believe in the other Triad system that the Roman Catholic Church teaches -- "Father, Son and the Mother of God" -- an excellent view of a true familial relationship.

Let's be specific if you continue to participate in the discussion of this subject. Which passages in John 14-16 do you not understand or discuss further?

You continue to participate as evidenced by your constant response to the posts. Your desire is to end the seemingly endless discussion of the Trinity. Why can't you end your part of it? And let others continue the discussion?

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.247.104

Re: Making an Endless Discussion End

February 24 2013, 2:57 PM 

It is important to discuss instrumental music, because the New Testament specifies only vocal music. To have instrumental music is to add to God's command for vocal music. Thus the subject of IM is far from moot, because it is a salvation issue.

It is also necessary to believe in the existence of the Godhead, because the New Testament mentions the components of the Godhead. Yet God did not make a salvation issue of how we perceive the ARRANGEMENT of the components of the Godhead: whether we see the Godhead arranged as one entity with components of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, OR whether we see the Godhead arranged as three separate components of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The line is so fine that it's almost like splitting hairs; hence, the futility of debate.

All I do is reiterate how important it is that we believe in the Godhead and that we go no further. You are certainly entitled to your personal beliefs about how the components of the Godhead are arranged, but apparently you feel compelled to keep hammering at this, as if you are trying to win everyone to your side. I hope you're not trying to make the arrangement of the components of the Godhead into a salvation issue, because then the implications would be that anyone who disagrees with your personal perception of it is in danger of hell.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.247.104

Re: Making an Endless Discussion End

February 24 2013, 3:45 PM 

So now it has come down to our debating the futility of debating about the Godhead. And smiling with amusement, those who resided in the heavens just sighed and slowly shook their heads. happy.gif

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Making an Endless Discussion End

February 24 2013, 4:35 PM 

Actually, your iteration in part makes the discussion of this particular Catholic Creed endless. You contribute to the endless discussion, and you're complaining about it? The discussion should continue for others.

Generalizations are not necessarily lessons to learn -- therefore, they serve no real intent or purpose for a discussion. That's akin to a compilation of quotations or sayings -- read them; memorize them; quote them to others. (Maybe, when you get a chance to compile broad and general doctrinal assertions, do so and let's publish here.) happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif

On the other hand, there are specifications that need to be dealt with in discussing certain doctrinal topics. The nature of God is a mystery. We all know that. But that should not keep a discussion board from exploring and studying the issues to the best of our knowledge. That means you cannot dictate to the rest of those interested in learning that the discussion should end.

Instrumental music is mentioned here only: (1) to show it as an example of how a discussion can be endless and (2) to let it be known that a discussion board can be expected to allow the discussion to continue so long as there are willing participants.

Thing is: it appears that you are interested in continuing the discussion endlessly. Correct? Not correct?

 
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B
(no login)
98.87.24.92

Re: Making an Endless Discussion End

February 24 2013, 6:44 PM 

Not "complaining" at all. Just stating an obvious fact that debating this subject is futile, if not amusing. It goes nowhere, just like many religious discussions do. However, if people enjoy engaging in exercises in futility as an avocation, then lay on, Macduff.

You object to the "Trinity" concept (three distinct, separate entities) primarily because that's what the Catholics believe. Of course, Catholics and Protestants alike believe in the Lord God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It's just the particular ARRANGEMENT of these entities that poses a "problem" for some, when it really shouldn't.

Are Catholics absolutely "wrong" and going to hell for believing in the Trinity concept? Not necessarily. (Other facets of Catholic doctrine doom them, however.) Are you and other Protestants absolutely "right" for not believing in the Trinity concept? Not necessarily. It's only important to believe the Godhead exists without further conjectures about its arrangement. Since the arrangement of the Godhead is definitely not a salvation issue, debating it is futile, although seeing the debates continue is amusing, nonetheless. happy.gif

 
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Donnie
(Premier Login madisonchurchofchrist)
Owner
99.177.250.192

Putting Words in Someone Else's Mouth

February 24 2013, 7:16 PM 

At this juncture, this is no longer a debate concerning the Trinity Creed.

It has turned into a battle of who says "the last word."

You have "the last word," Pal.



 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.162.203

Always Pagan Triads

February 24 2013, 12:32 PM 

Note that the Jews had been ABANDONED to worship the starry hosts. These were always triads or families of God. To think of a star, planet, sun or moon as a god worshipped the CREATURE and not the Creator. While the Israelites called a bull calf representing their godS as in CalveS their JEHOVAH, the record is clear that they always tried to make the gods about their size and probably a bit more wicked.

The long dissertation of Jesus and all of the New Testament is to prove that the MAN Jesus, singular, was to debunk the trinities: Thomas wanted to SEE the Father.

Ezekiel in Chapter 8 describes the trinitarian worship by the women IN the Temple and the men bowing to the SUN by having to turn their backs on the temple.

A Lipscomb professor wrote a small booklet: his thesis was that ALL PAGANS believed in a trinity, therefore, it was only right that Christians have their own trinity. That was the Catholic's rationale (?) which they also applied to music in the School of Christ.

http://www.piney.com/MuTammuz.html

[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.197.162.203 on Feb 24, 2013 3:41 PM


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

The Two Pagan-Influenced Triads of the Roman Catholic Church

February 24 2013, 2:14 PM 

Let's not make the Trinitarians mad and confused. They seem to have chosen to believe in only one of them:

(1) Father ... Son ... Holy Ghost (Spirit-Mother)
(2) Jehovah ... Jesus ... Virgin Mary ("Mother of God")

The Godhead has always been about the Spirit, the Holy Spirit -- continuously. There was somewhat an "interruption" (but not really, since God is a Spirit for eternity) when God was manifest in the flesh in Jesus Christ -- but that was a necessity as the world needed a Redeemer. After the resurrection of Christ, he was no longer in his physical form. He is, indeed, now our Comforter and the Spirit of truth.

 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.162.203

Trinity as Graven Image

February 24 2013, 3:24 PM 

[linked image]

 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.162.203

Re: Trinity as Graven Image

February 24 2013, 3:51 PM 

I have updated the table. Anyone who can read clear text can grasp why God working through Jesus Christ as the SINGULAR image of God spent so much time denying the Jewish etal pagan gods they worshipped because of Musical Idolatry of the Egyptian etal Trinity.

God is SPIRIT or exists on a level of MIND.
Jesus said that He was not SPIRIT but His Words were Spirit because he spoke ONLY what God breathed into him: inspired means BREATHED and the breath of God is NOT a people.

Trinitarians pretend that they are giving honor to the Spirit (the Mother goddess) but they deny that the fullness of Deity dwelled in the MAN Jesus of Nazareth. They may intentionally be denying glory to Jesus Christ because they say that they have moved BEYOND the Biblical dispensation and some kind of "spirit" guides them beyond the sacred pages.

John says that they are ANTICHRIST. Not even Judas knew that the spirit guiding him was the devil until Jesus flashed the SOP symbol which has the same root meaning as PSALLO.

 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.162.203

Re: Trinity as Graven Image

February 24 2013, 3:55 PM 

P.S. I am not debating anyone. To debate you need some scribbled notes. When you debate with Scripture you might as well do the Judas maneuver.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.247.104

Re: Trinity as Graven Image

February 24 2013, 3:53 PM 

Actually, there are FOUR elements or entities in that "Trinity" diagram: God, Father, Son, Spirit. Maybe that should be called the "Quaternity." Uh oh! More futile "debates"? happy.gif

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Trinity as Graven Image

February 24 2013, 8:09 PM 

An excellent diagram of the "Trinity."

How can the word "IS" be shown so that it is "Son IS God" and not "God IS Son"?

... so that it is "Spirit IS God" rather than "God IS Spirit"?

In summary, the Trinity Creed states:

1. The Father [person] IS God.
2. The Son [person] IS God.
3. The Holy Ghost [person] IS God

Need a favor, Ken.

Is there a diagram of the other Catholic Triad showing the familial relationship among:

1. The Father
2. The Son
3. The "Mother of God" [the Virgin Mary]?

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.209.4

Re: Trinity as Graven Image

February 24 2013, 9:29 PM 

All this hammering about the Trinity reminds me of that song by Ray Stevens in the 1960s, called "A-hab the A-rab." Surely you remember it. Part of the lyrics are: "Round and around and around and around and around and around and around." That's just what folks do when they continue to agonize over and debate about the Trinity--going round and around and around and around and around and around and around.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Trinity as Graven Image

February 24 2013, 9:36 PM 

Thank you for being an active participant in the "round and around and around..." debate. Is that too agonizing for you that you continue to interject your non-substantive, derisive remarks?

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.209.4

Re: Trinity as Graven Image

February 24 2013, 9:55 PM 

Not agonizing for me at all, but apparently you continue to agonize over the Trinity, because you sure keep going round and around and around and around and around and around and around (BTW, I included so many "arounds" because the number of them matches the Ray Stevens song). But if that's your thing and if it gives you peace of mind, then proceed.

Now don't pout and get your feathers all ruffled because someone comments on the utter and absolute futility of debating about the Godhead. We do futile things all the time because we have some underlying compulsion to do them, even when we accomplish nothing by doing them. That's what makes life (especially on this board) quite interesting.

 
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Donnie
(Premier Login madisonchurchofchrist)
Owner
99.177.250.192

Re: Trinity as Graven Image

February 24 2013, 10:03 PM 

You're agonizing. It shows.

You're not learning from the discussion -- that's your problem.

I am learning from the discussion as I continue to search and study the Scripture.

And I don't waste my time pouting.

 
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B
(no login)
98.87.22.98

Re: Trinity as Graven Image

February 25 2013, 12:01 PM 

The Scriptures say Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You won't admit it, but you really do agonize over whether they are one and the same or three separate entites. You seem to think they are all one and the same, and that's fine if you choose to cast away the Trinity concept of three separate entities. But then you get testy and imply people are being "derisive" if they differ a bit with you and suggest that the Godhead just might be arranged differently from your personal concept. I find all this amusing, because it really is a waste of time to worry about it. The Godhead will continue to function just fine, whether we see it as the three-part Trinity or as a three-in-ONE entity.

And yes, I can see you pouting over it all. happy.gif

 
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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


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