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TRIBULATION and His Assembly: Romans 14 Jay Guin

March 12 2013 at 11:36 AM
Ken sublett  (Login Ken.Sublett)
from IP address

Jay Guin and ALL promoters of what they call "instrumental worship" appeal to Romans 14 to insist that EVERYONE gets the right to impose INSTRUMENTS and NO ONE gets the right to JUDGE. However, that is the result of having no ability or need to DEFINE THOSE WORDS.

BEHOLD, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment. Isa 32:1

And a man shall be as an hiding place from the wind, and a covert from the tempest; as rivers of water in a dry place, as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land. Isa 32:2

And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken. Isa 32:3

The heart also of the rash shall understand knowledge, and the tongue of the stammerers shall be ready to speak plainly. Isa 32:4

...;..That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David; Am.6:5

Chant is: Parat (h6527) paw-rat'; a prim. root; to scatter words, i. e. prate (or hum): - chant.

Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth:
and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. Ge.11:9

The vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful. Isa 32:5


...;..Nabal (h5036) naw-bawl'; from 5034; stupid; wicked (espec. impious): - fool (-ish, -ish man, -ish woman), vile person.

Nabel (h5034) to wilt; gen. to fall away, fail, faint; fig. to be foolish... make vile, wither..

Nebel (h5035) from 5034; a skin- bag for liquids (from collapsing when empty); hence a vase (as similar in shape when full); also a lyre (as having a body of like form): - bottle, pitcher, psaltery, vessel, viol

This has the same "wine skin" meaning of the Familiar Spirit of the Witch of Endor and the Sounding Brass Paul outlawed: these were echo chambers in the theater, tuned to certain tones and therefore WERE a form of pipe organ.

Here is the "praise" of David when he "made himself vile" trying to appease God:

...;..Halal (h1984) haw-lal'; a prim. root; to be clear (orig. of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show, to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causat. to celebrate; also to stultify: - (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (- ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.

A GOOD LIBERAL does not TAKE anything:
...;..Nadiyb (h5081) naw-deeb'; from 5068; prop. voluntary, i. e. generous; hence, magnanimous; as noun, a grandee (sometimes a tyrant): - free, liberal (things), noble, prince, willing ([hearted]).

For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity,
to practise hypocrisy,
and to utter error against the Lord,
to make empty the soul of the hungry,
and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail. Isaiah 32:6

The Pharisees were probably the best the non-Israelite Jews had to offer at the time of Jesus. But, they had UTTERED ERROR by using SCRIBES to write commentary, songs and sermons. Jesus said that they did this DELIBERATELY: so they would not have to teach the Words of God. They could not CORRUPT THE WORD or "sell learning at retail" without DEPRIVING the people of the WORD so they got HUNGRY for it.

Amos 5f and Isaiah 5 says that the religious festivals of WINE, WOMEN, SONG AND INSTRUMENTAL music worked so that the people STARVED to death and were taken CAPTIVE.

A LEGALISTS is in two sense: One, he FEEDS the law in small bits and pieces. Secondly, the word NOMOS identifies the MUSICAL purveying of the laws of Abaddon or Apollyon.

Therefore, the LEGALISTS can be easily identified as a Scribe, a Pharisee or a Hypocrite.

We have noted that the GREEK language and literature defines a hypocrite firstly as an ORATOR and ALL of the liberal arts. The DEMAGOGUE appeases people using the PERFORMING ARTS.

Jesus pointed to Isaiah and Ezekiel to identify ALL mouth religion as the work of HYPOCRITES. Ezekiel identifies performance speakers, singers and musicians: like all cases, the words speak of sex as the Purpose Driven Religion.

Villany is:
...;..Nebalah (h5039) neb-aw-law'; fem. of 5036; foolishness, i. e. (mor.) wickedness; concr. a crime; by extens. punishment: - folly, vile, villany.

Because they have committed villany in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbours wives, and

have spoken lying words in my name,
which I have NOT commanded them;
even I know, and am a witness, saith the Lord. Je.29:23

Hypocrisy here is corruption which was a mark of all performing arts. The word also identifies the mourners.
Both Amos 5-8 and Isaiah 5 show that the musical festivals starved the people for the Words of God.

The instruments also of the churl are evil: he deviseth wicked DEVICES to destroy the poor with LYING words, even when the needy speaketh right. Isa 32:7

Zechariah prophesies of Messiah: his name is Jehovah- Saves. After He comes anyone who PROPHESIES in the sense of singing, playing and dancing will be EXECUTED by his own parents. The "prophesying" children after Pentecost was a MARK: anyone who did this charismatic practice AFTER that would be MARKED as a pagan. Paul identifies the MAD WOMEN in 1 Cor 11f

...;..And the Lord said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish (vile) shepherd. Zech 11:15

...;..Instruments (h3627) kel-ee'; from 3615; something prepared, i. e. any apparatus (as an implement, utensil, dress, vessel or weapon): - armour ([-bearee]), artillery, bag, carriage, / furnish, furniture, instrument, jewel, that is made of, one from another, that which pertaineth, pot, / psaltery, sack, stuff, thing, tool, vessel, ware, weapon, / whatsoever.

For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land,
which shall not visit those that be cut off,
neither shall seek the young one,
nor heal that that is broken,
nor feed that that standeth still:

but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws [cloven hooves] in pieces. Zech 11:16

Woe to the IDOL SHEPHERD that leaveth the flock the sword shall be upon his arm,
and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened. Zech 11:17

BUT, Jesus MARKS the true from the Hireling who LETS the wolves (homosexuals) into the church:
...;..I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. John 10:11
But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not,
seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth:
and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. John 10:12

The word scatter, TO PENETRATE, to dissipate, put to flight from is from Skopos and meaning to pierce); a scorpion (from its sting): scorpion. Conceal, a mark.

He deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poor with lying words, even when the needy speaketh right.

...;..For I know your manifold transgressions and your mighty sins: they afflict the just, they take a bribe, and they turn aside the poor in the gate from their right. Am.5:12
Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols. Amos 5:23
That we may buy the poor for silver, and the needy for a pair of shoes; yea, and sell the refuse of the wheat? Am.8:6
And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day. Amos 8:10
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: Amos 8:11

Because the palaces [set on a HILL] shall be forsaken;
the multitude of the city shall be left;
the forts and towers shall be for dens for ever,
a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; Isa 32:14

Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest. Isa 32:15

John Calvin denied the clergy which was defended on the basis of the LAW OF MOSES, asks with feeling:

"Why should the plowing oxen STARVE and the lazy ASSES be fed?"

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Apr 6, 2013 2:20 PM

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Christ in the Prophets defines this TRIBULATION and His Assembly: inclusively and Exclusiv

March 12 2013, 9:56 PM 

Christ for all times defined the Purpose Driven Cult who give themselves permission to do what Christ OUTLAWS because they hear "spirits." That's what happens when you let the musicians get control of all of your pleasure centers: This cannot happen to rational or soper disciples.

Ezek 22:1 MOREOVER the word [Dabar or LOGOS] of the Lord came unto me, saying,

Ezek 22:2 Now, thou son of man, wilt thou judge, wilt thou judge the bloody city? yea, thou shalt shew her all her abominations.

Ezek 22:3 Then say thou, Thus saith the Lord God, The city sheddeth blood in the midst of it, that her time may come, and maketh idols against herself to defile herself.

Ezek 22:4 Thou art become guilty in thy blood that thou hast shed; and hast defiled thyself in thine idols which thou hast made; and thou hast caused thy days to draw near, and art come even unto thy years: therefore have I made thee a reproach unto the heathen, and a mocking to all countries.
cherphach (h2781) kher-paw'; from 2778; contumely, disgrace, the pudenda: - rebuke, reproach (-fully), shame.

Charaph (h2778) khaw-raf'; a prim. root; to pull off, i. e. (by impl.) to expose (as by stripping); spec. to betroth (as if a surrender); fig. to carp at, i. e. defame; denom. (from 2779) to spend the winter: - betroth, blaspheme, defy, jeopard, rail, reproach, upbraid.
Ezek 22:5 Those that be near, and those that be far from thee, shall mock thee, which art infamous and much vexed.
Mehuwmah (h4103) meh-hoo-ma'; from 1949; confusion or uproar: - destruction, discomfiture, trouble, tumult, vexation, vexed.

Publish in the palaces at Ashdod, and in the palaces in the land of Egypt, and say, Assemble yourselves upon the mountains of Samaria, and behold the great tumults in the midst thereof, and the oppressed in the midst thereof. Am.3:9

Huwm (h1949) hoom; a prim. root [comp. 2000]; to make an uproar, or agitate greatly: - destroy, move, make a noise, put, ring again.

H2000 hamam haw-mam' A primitive root (compare H1949 , H1993 ); properly to put in commotion; by implication to disturb, drive, destroy: break, consume, crush, destroy, discomfit, trouble, vex.

Howleluwth (g1948) ho-lay-looth'; from act. part. of 1984; folly: - madness.

The beginning of the words of his mouth is foolishness: and the end of his talk is mischievous madness. Ec.10:13
Ezek 22:6 Behold, the princes of Israel, every one were in thee to their power to shed blood.

Nasiy (h5387) naw-see'; or nasiĀ· naw-see'; from 5375; prop. an exalted one, i. e. a king or sheik; also a rising mist: - captain, chief, cloud, governor, prince, ruler, vapour

H8269 sar From H8323 ; a head person (of any rank or class): captain (that had rule), chief (captain), general, governor, keeper, lord, ([-task-]) master, prince (-ipal), ruler, steward.
Ezek 22:7 In thee have they set light by father and mother: in the midst of thee have they dealt by oppression with the stranger: in thee have they vexed the fatherless and the widow.
Qalal (h7043) kaw-lal'; a prim. root; to be (caus. make) light, lit. (swift, small, sharp, etc.) or fig. (easy, trifling, vile, etc.): - abate, make bright, bring into contempt, (ac-) curse, despise, (be) ease (- y, -ier), (be a, make, make somewhat, move, seem a, set) light (- en, - er, -ly, - ly afflict, -ly esteem, thing), * slight [-ly], be swift (- er), (be, be more, make, re-) vile, whet.


Osheq (h6233) o'-shek; from 6231; injury, fraud, (subj.) distress, (concr.) unjust gain: - cruelly, extortion, oppression, thing [deceitfully gotten].

Ashaq (h6231) aw-shak'; a prim. root (comp. 6229); to press upon, i. e. oppress, defraud, violate, overflow: - get deceitfully, deceive, defraud, drink up, (use) oppress ([-ion], -or), to violence (wrong).
The Scribes and Pharisees fulfilled this: Jesus called them HYPOCRITES and the example of Christ in Ezekiel 33 identifies self-speakers, singers and instrument players. The long prayers they made to DRINK UP or EAT UP the living of the widows are called HYMNS.

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Ken Sublett
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Isaiah part B

March 13 2013, 11:38 AM 

Lucian is used as the PATTERN to prove that PSALLO could include instruments. Therefore, if Alexander the Oracle Monger could play the flute and spin the top and CHEAT the FAT HEADS, they think that is still their PATTERN. Tom Burgess and all of the NACC teachers and a few dupes thinks that this TRUMPS all of the Bible and recorded history.

Madison seems to fit the Lucifer-Pattern being lifted up with pride only to be dashed down and from being a PATTERN to being a LAUGHINGSTOCK (same as at Mount Sinai)

People seemed to have missed the fall from grace because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. They also use the Levites who were SOOTHSAYERS making instrumental noise as their spirit-guided PATTER to be imposed to deliberately sow discord and DRIVE OUT people from their own 'synagogue.' That is so that they can COLLECT people who had rather worship the not-so-talent praise team boys and girls marking themselves. This is THE message of John speaking of the LOCUSTS: in the classics the Locusts were the MUSES who were sent "underground" because they failed to give great honor to the Mother Goddess as harlot with her muses.

The prophecy was that they would be unleashed: John identifies the "fruity" speakers, singers and instrument players, calls the sorcerers who HAD deceived the whole world (old evil spirits?) and they SIGNAL that Jesus has removed the LAMPS and WILL cast them while still alive into the LAKE OF FIRE. PERHAPS they are already CONSUMING their spirits by the BREATH (spirit of their lips). Not to worry: most are not supposed to believe it. If I am wrong maybe if God saved David because his musical performances were to convince God and others that he was MADE, maybe there is a place for crazy people. The MESSAGE from the Garden of Eden onward is that there is no redemption for people's whose spirit can be SHAKEN into worshiping people and talent.

[linked image]

DON'T miss the point that the Spirit OF Christ spoke only in the Prophets and Apostles: they are not students of the prophets and they REPUDIATE the Apostles who claim to be guided by Jesus Christ The Holy Spirit into all truth.

Therefore, when they climb the totem pole of the rich and famous and claim there is no CENI they make their dream come true by REPUDIATING both the Prophets and Apostles.

The PATTERN which they love to IGNORE is to PREACH the word by READING the Word.

1Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to [public] reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

That was ordained for the Church in the Wilderness and EXCLUDED vocal or instrumental rejoicing or high-sounding rhetoric. For heaven's sake: Jesus called them HYPOCRITES and widow-fleecers by Quoting the Spirit OF Christ in Isaiah and Ezekiel.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Mar 13, 2013 11:47 AM

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Isaiah 32 Churl Part C

March 13 2013, 2:54 PM 

Worship in the New Testament (other than falling on your face) was GIVING ATTENDANCE to the Reading of the Word of God in Christ. Without reason for debate you are FORCED to watch the performance singers, their instruments and how well they PERFORM their worship which YOU pay only to WATCH and admire.

That is the sign for God to send strong delusions: the Lying Wonder as the MARK of being delusional caused by music can be watched on Facebook where the Youth Minister and others are PROUD to act out. Real men or godly women cannot do that.

[linked image]

The word lelein is fundamentally an onomatopoetic one, meaning, as Thayers Lexicon puts it, to go la-la. The Greeks shouted alala both in worship and in war, and personified Alala as a deity (Pindar, Fr. 208 [78]; Plutarch 2.3496). It was this same repetitive and meaningless syllabification in pagan prayers which Jesus described: for they think they shall be heard for their much speaking (Matthew 6:7)

This has the same meaning as Halal (the root for the Lucifer word) where making yourself vile was thought to force the gods to take pity on you.

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Re: Christ in the Prophets defines this TRIBULATION and His Assembly: inclusively and Exclusiv

March 13 2013, 3:37 PM 

Paul warned about the MAD WOMEN OF CORINTH and to guarantee that they do not take over your mind and body (watch facebook) Christ defined the Assembly as a School (only) of His Words (only) aready COMPOSED for us in the Prophets and Apostles (only).

If there is a godly elder he is to "teach that which has been taught" and HAVE holy palms to turn up (as if reading). This prevents an outbreak of wrath or ORGY if The Women are sedentary and silent. Otherwise, you simply CANNOT be a Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ ordained inclusively and exclusively in the wilderness and EMPOWERED by the death of Jesus Christ which UTTERLY DISABLES those ACTING OUT in a true assembly. The kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU and you are warned (CENI) not to go out where evil men CLAIM that they have the kingdom OUTSIDE of you and you must pay them for the free water of the Word.

Watch out for the MAD WOMEN OF CORINTH who cannot usurp if the elders just teach that which has been taught and not try to make themselves a minature Pope or Band Leader.

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History is Absolute: real males CANNOT be forced into this ritual. In the Greek religions and in Catholicism the roles were played by males dressed in clergy garb. History is also absolute that the Jewish clothing of the clergy who were abandoned to worship the starry host, naked dances such as David engaged in began with the STOLA and went to the EPHOD and then to what Micah called NAKEDNESS was "men performing the roles of women."

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PSALLO points to the modern INSTRUMENTAL KIRKE not Christ

April 6 2013, 2:25 PM 

Romans 14 is used to justify imposing what they call "musical worship" in YOUR church and you have no right to PASS judgment. We have noted that Paul OUTLAWS all diversities which do not EDIFY which in the church means EDUCATE by speaking that which is written for our learning.

The psallo word is translated as ""sing" because it was used as a metaphor for SHOOTING FORTH hymns in contrast to shoothing forth LOVE ARROWS while plucking your lyre.

[linked image]
[linked image]

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Romans 14

April 7 2013, 12:46 AM 

It is interesting that Guinn and others always completely ignore the other side of the coin: not to put in a stumbling block. Clearly by inserting pagan practices into the assembly they insert stumbling blocks and disunity. I do believe that Romans 14 is both figurative and literal in its meaning.

This passage reminds me of the milk vs meat discussion, too, and some threads that have passed. For instance, not too much, really, is said about singing, and there have been discussions on this site regarding congregational singing. Accepting congregational singing using Italian renaissance notation in four part harmony, we have some members in the congregation that I attend that clearly look to "get in the spirit" according to the song -- hand clapping, extemporizing, rhythmic motions, etc. I consider those members needing milk, and even though some of our attendees, and I suspect the maintainers of this blog, are at least somewhat put-off, I usually try to accommodate them at least once on the rare occasions when I am song leader. We just had a record attendance on what many call "Easter Sunday", including several first time visitors. Our preacher called it "resurrection Sunday", but that was obviously a euphemism. We made them all welcome. Hopefully, we fed them a little meat along with some milk.

But did we put a stumbling block in front of anybody? I hope not. We have had former members leave our assembly. accusng us of celebrating Christmas and Easter, and they now attend with Christians who are much less open on such matters.

None the less, we must somewhere recognize there are lines, which in part is what Romans 14 is partly about. If we are happy we ought to sing happy, but substituting that which is lifeless for what ought to be lively is a perversion.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

"Substituting that which is lifeless for...."

April 7 2013, 6:10 PM 

Excellent observations!!!

I gather that by "lifeless" you were referring to "instrumental music." As you know, I have the "habit" of defining musical instruments as inanimate and lifeless, as well as controversial or divisive and totally unnecessary.

A comprehensive study of the entire New Testament reveals very little about "worship." The New Testament worship by Christians in a collective sense is not defined, although we can certainly deduce from certain references that there was an assembly of the saints in order to break bread [commemorate the Lord's death] on the first day of the week, as well as to make convenient "the collection for the saints" so that "there be no gatherings when I come." The early Christians gathered as a Bible school in order to "let the word of Christ dwell in richly ... to teach and admonish one another."

I believe that contemporary worship has gone way beyond "the call of duty." So much of it is now highly programmed and rehearsed -- and spontaneity is much less impacting. Then, that process negates the sincerity of a supposedly unrehearsed joy." If a church's objective is to "sing happy" (instead of "SPEAKING to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs" [Eph. 5:19]), that wouldn't fulfill the objective of "come learn of me" while in the assembly.

There's the excuse of hand clapping as an expression of joy. Really? But there's a difference between: (a) handclapping to applaud a performer or "happy singing" [which is usually rhythmic and programmed] and (b) handclapping because of unrehearsed joy.

Are clappers refrained from exercising such an activity? Of course, not. Therefore, there's no stumbling block that exists. But it doesn't make sense that the clappers accuse the rest of the congregants of causing the stumbling block. (In Madison's case, only a handful of folks perform rhythmic clapping while singing, and it's usually triggered by the "Worship Leader" or by the "Praise Team.") O.K. most of the "praise" songs written by "Christian Music" artists were written with instrumental music in mind. Maybe, handclapping, extemporizing, and those howling noises simply simulate musical instruments.

Record attendance during "Easter Sunday" is not unusual. I believe it has always been that way, even prior to progressive congregations beginning to celebrate "Easter Sunday" as Catholic and Protestant Churches do.

The best that can be done and expected on these occasions (Easter and Christmas) is to remind folks that we commemorate the Lord's death on the first day of the week throughout the year -- not just on "Easter Sunday" -- and that we do not neglect the truth that Christ was born to become the Savior of mankind.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: "Substituting that which is lifeless for...."

April 7 2013, 7:06 PM 

I heard a preacher call them "Twicers."

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Unnecessary sarcasm

April 8 2013, 1:42 AM 

Yes, "twicers." I have heard it myself. I heard a man once say that he wanted to say hello to all the folks that he would not see for another year. I have also heard a lot of comment about twicers -- getting married and getting buried. Always seemed unnecessarily sarcastic to me.

As for the other --

James 5:13 (KJV) Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? Let him sing psalms.
Many versions use happy.
Romans 12:15 Rejoice with those who rejoice.
Singing can be and effusion of rejoicing. Occasionally we sing more of a dirge. But it is correct that many have gone way beyond much is rehearsed and it has become mostly entertainment, and the purpose of the whole service is muddled.

If we can have a choir sing for us, although I think in the early church it was common to sing solo, or if we can have instruments sing for us, why not have a prayer wheel? Just spin the wheel and shout out "prayer 15." I guess to do that timing would be important.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

To Sing Solo

April 8 2013, 12:05 PM 

There are very few passages in the New Testament that deal with the word "sing" or "singing."

I gather that in most of these few instances where singing is involved, it is a matter of an individual Christian singing:

-- Jas. 5:13 -- "Is any merry? let him sing psalms."
-- I Cor. 14:15 -- "I will sing with the spirit, and ... understanding."
-- Rom. 15:9 -- "I will confess to thee ... and sing unto thy name."
-- Heb. 2:12 -- "in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee"

According to the last verse, even though "in the midst of the church" is mentioned, "I will sing" is still the key. It does not say: "I will perform a solo for and before the congregation."

Another reference to singing is what occurred when: "... at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them." Oh, a duet!?! That's fine. Were they in the assembly?

Singing in the assembly as "a congregation" is implied when the Scripture says: "speaking to yourselves in ... songs" for the purpose of teaching and admonishing one another."

Of course, I'm for singing. "I sing because I'm happy," as one song says. Perhaps, the congregation can be happy as well, but then that may involve the entire congregation singing -- not one individual performer singing "happy" for the congregation.

happy.gif I haven't heard of the expression "twicers" before. Now I know. I'll add that to my list of new expressions.

Thanks for your post, William.

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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

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