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B
(no login)
98.87.22.135

Re: The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit

April 12 2013, 5:18 PM 

"Godhead," "Father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit" are all good terms to remember.

 
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Donnie
(Premier Login madisonchurchofchrist)
Owner
99.177.250.192

Re: The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit

April 12 2013, 9:31 PM 

Needless to say. (Thing is that there are now 4 entities. Which ones are beings or persons? Which ones are not beings?)

What would be helpful is to start rehearsing these expressions. Before you know it, you will come to understand that the holy spirit of the living God has never been separated [surgically or by whatever means] from a set of triplets.

When you grammarians like "B" REALLY KNOW the significance of the preposition "OF" [which indicates "possession" or "ownership" or "being a part of" or "that which belongs to," the following expressions will register in the back of your mind:

  • the spirit .......... OF God
  • the spirit .......... OF our God
  • the spirit .......... OF the living God
  • the spirit .......... OF the Lord
  • the spirit .......... OF the Lord God
  • the spirit .......... OF the Father
  • the spirit .......... OF Christ
  • the spirit .......... OF Jesus Christ
  • the spirit .......... OF His Son
  • the spirit .......... OF Him
  • the holy spirit ..... OF God (Eph. 4:30)


__________________
Edited the long "handle." sad.gif


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Apr 18, 2013 10:27 PM


 
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B
(no login)
74.179.244.225

Re: The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit

April 12 2013, 10:41 PM 

Since the New Testament contains a number of phrases beginning with "the spirit of..." and ending with "God/Lord/Christ/Father/Son," etc., does that mean Jesus was incorrect when He explicitly mentioned Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Matt. 28:19? Some would go so far as to say so or at least to imply it by vehemently resisting any reference to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together in the same sentence.

The bottom line is that since "the spirit of...God/Lord/Christ/Father/Son," etc., as well as "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" are ALL terms or phrases found in the New Testament, then we may form our own opinions and perceptions of how they are arranged in the spiritual realm. Their spiritual function does not in any way depend on how we perceive them.


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit

April 13 2013, 12:19 AM 

Thanks for that recognition [finally] -- that the expression "the spirit of _________" is mentioned in the entire Scripture. It's overwhelming to me to count as many as 70 such references in the Bible [KJV].

I do not know of anyone "vehemently resisting any reference to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together in the same sentence." Even if it appears only once in the entire Bible.

All those references are in the Scripture. They are all true.

The key issue in the discussion is whether or not the third entity in Matt. 28:19, the "spirit" [modified by the adjective "holy"], is a common noun or a proper noun. (Let's not be misled for now that translators capitalized the words.)

That's why we keep bringing up other references to help clarify the confusion, such as those numerous, numerous passages that mention "the [holy] spirit OF _______" [about 70 verses]. Also, consider these references to "the holy spirit" that certainly indicate that it [such spirit] BELONGS:

  • "[10] Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. [11] Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me." (Psalm 51)

  • "[10] But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. [11] ... Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?" (Isaiah 63)

  • "[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph. 4)

  • [8] He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit. (I Thess. 4)

"The spirit of...God/Lord/Christ/Father/Son" [as you summarized it, thank you] is that one and only "holy spirit."

Christians must always remember: "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 
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B
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74.179.62.177

Re: The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit

April 13 2013, 3:05 AM 

By acknowledging that the phrases and terms "the spirit of...God/Lord/Christ/Father/Son," etc., as well as "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" are all found in the New Testament, I meant that there is nothing sinful if our concepts differ about their arrangement in the spiritual realm. For example, some people believe in the concept of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as such; therefore, they relate better to three spiritual identities. There is nothing sinful about that. Other people believe in the concept of the Father and Son as such, while recognizing "the spirit of...God/Lord/Christ/Father/Son," etc. There is nothing sinful about that. And still others believe in only the One Supreme God, Who manifests Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is nothing sinful about that.

Because we are not commanded that we must embrace this or that concept about how God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are arranged in the spiritual realm, then we are at liberty to form our own personal concepts about that arrangement.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit

April 13 2013, 1:08 PM 

There is nothing sinful in my observation that you acknowledged for the first time (in spite of your "grammatical prowess") that the preposition "OF" is in the expression: "the spirit of...God/Lord/Christ/Father/Son."

Concerning "nothing is sinful about that," it is not for me or this board to assert that. I have not said it, and much of the researched data presented here points out that the historical triads of Babylon, Egypt and other nations are PAGAN. Is it a surprise that even the eventual Roman Catholic Church/papacy-driven triads [including the Father, Son and Mother of God triad] were of pagan origin?

There are also disagreements between: (1) that the body of Christ, the church, is comprised of those whose conversion process was completed when they were baptized in order to have sins remitted; and (2) that the body of Christ, the church, is comprised of all denominational religious groups.

Should you say "nothing is sinful about that" either way?

We should just let the Scripture make that call: "nothing is sinful about that."

It is certainly not sinful to present the scores and scores of passages that refer to: "the spirit of...God/Lord/Christ/Father/Son."

To me there's nothing confusing about the "arrangement" or hierarchical structure or the identities of the 3 entities. The thorough analysis of the significance of the preposition "OF" in some 70 scriptural references clearly defines relationships and identities.

Simply, let's take a look at: "the unholy mind [or "spirit"] OF man:

1. There is MAN.
2. There is the "unholy mind" of MAN.
3. Is the "mind" an entity? Yes.
4. What modifies the "mind" of MAN? The word: "unholy" does...
5. Does the "mind" which is "unholy" belong to MAN? Yes
6. Is the "mind" a separate being from MAN? Hopefully NOT.


Educate us, B. Tell us more about the preposition "OF" in our discussion. Your participation is important.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.203.215

Re: The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit

April 13 2013, 2:37 PM 

I neither worry about nor fixate on the preposition "of." That is sufficient unto itself.

You mentioned paganism. Is it a surprise that in the mythology of certain pagan cultures, certain gods were said to have been born of virgins? Jesus was also born of a virgin, yet despite the parallel, that certainly does not make Him pagan. Likewise, the pagan triads of gods in pagan cultures does not mean that the triad of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is pagan. If that triad were pagan, Jesus would not have mentioned it in Matt. 28:19. Therefore, that triad is scripturally legitimate and is not man-made. On the other hand, the Catholic church altered that triad by substituting in the Virgin Mary, the "mother of God," as a supposedly divine entity. We do not recognize that particular man-made triad.

"We should just let the Scripture make that call: 'nothing is sinful about that.'" I have already let the Scriptures make the call: there is no command about how we must focus our perceptions of the arrangement of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Because the New Testament assigns no penalty for differences of perceptions in that regard, then we should not become upset or disturbed or alarmed when those perceptions differ from person to person.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit

April 13 2013, 3:25 PM 

No, you made that call: "nothing is sinful about that"; the Scripture did not say that.

Educate us, B, concerning the preposition "OF" in those phrases, i.e., from a grammatical standpoint. This is important ... especially coming from a highly educated man like you. You see, B, you've given the impression that the preposition "of" is only there but that it is insignificant in establishing the "arrangement" [your terminology] or relationships among the 3 entities listed in Matt. 28:19.

While the 3 entities [including "the holy spirit"] are mentioned in the passage, why not consider of GREAT SIGNIFICANCE the 70 references that involve the same "holy spirit" [the spirit which is holy] in ITS relation to THE FATHER and ITS relation to THE SON?

You keep making generalizations that are COMMON KNOWLEDGE.

When we involve "parts of speech" in the discussion in order to help clarify nebulous generalizations, we are into the real depths of the discussion. This is where your participation plays an important role.

Of the choices of beliefs, where is your stance, anyway? "You can't have it both ways," as the saying goes.

 
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B
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74.179.246.56

Re: The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit

April 13 2013, 5:28 PM 

Do the Scriptures teach about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? YES.

Do the Scriptures call them the "Trinity" or "triad" explicitly? NO.

Does the absence of the words "Trinity" and "triad" in the Scriptures prove that we must not accept the concept of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as such? NO.

Do the Scriptures teach that we absolutely must embrace a certain arrangement of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? NO.

Do the Scriptures teach that we definitely sin if we do not embrace a certain arrangement of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? NO.

Does a person sin if he believes in three entities/beings/identites of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? The Scriptures do not explictly say so.

If a person rejects the concept of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three identities and instead believes in "the spirit of God/Father/Son/Lord/Christ, etc., do the Scriptures explictly give that person the right to imply that everyone who has a different perception about this matter is in error? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit

April 13 2013, 6:58 PM 

When you make the assertion that opposing doctrines or beliefs does not matter, there is really no point in you participating in the discussion. This board is about discussing doctrinal differences.

You're assuming too much. And you're still making assertions WITHOUT scriptural support.

Educate us on the preposition "OF" as that will clarify nebulous assertions concerning the relationship in the Godhead. The preposition "of" is not insignificant, B.

When you remove that [teaching us more about the preposition "of"] from the discussion, you are essentially drawing this conclusion that:


"the holy spirit OF the Lord God"

................ = .................

"the holy spirit IS the Lord God"


There is a difference. Don't you see it? If you don't see it, let me explain that:

(a) There are 70 references to the preposition "of" in these expressions in Scripture.

-------------- versus --------------

(b) Substituting "is" for "of" is what the Trinity Creed teaches.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.177.16

Re: The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit

April 13 2013, 7:00 PM 

3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

When god turned the Jews over to the starry host including the Babylonian trinity, there was no redemption.

[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.197.177.16 on Apr 13, 2013 7:06 PM


 
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B
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74.179.247.180

Re: The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit

April 13 2013, 9:22 PM 

I urge you to accept the fact that, regarding the arrangement of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the New Testament neither commands nor condemns how we must perceive that arrangement. The New Testament does not list every conceivable yea or nay about all possible issues. That is FAR different from the stand the New Testament takes on such issues as baptism, vocal music, the Lord's Supper, and others. There, we have explicit commands about how to proceed; deviation from those instructions is sin. But where the New Testament does not issue any explicit instructions, commands, or condemnations about issues, then man is at liberty to formulate his own perceptions about those issues.

We have Matt. 28:19, in which Jesus commands us to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; there, Jesus mentions not just one but THREE spiritual identities. Then we have other passages that mention "the spirit of God/Lord/Father/Son/Christ," etc. Are we to ignore that one passage in favor of the many? Of course not! Some people's perceptions will identify more with Matt. 28:19, whereas other people will identify more with "the spirit of..." passages. The point is that, because the New Testament lacks a command or condemnation regarding what perception we must adopt about this matter, then how we perceive it is a matter of CHOICE.

Even though Jesus explicitly mentions Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you reject any grouping of them as three separate beings/entities/identities, because the Catholics decided to group them as the "Trinity." Moreover, as far as the Holy Spirit is concerned, you subscribe to "the spirit of God/Christ/Lord/Father/Son," etc. There's certainly nothing wrong about how you've chosen to perceive this matter. You relate more to "the spirit of..." than to a three-part grouping of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However, I sense that if people's perceptions about this matter are different from your own, then you believe they are dead wrong, after which you go off on a tangent about the preposition "of."

You would have sufficient justification to say that those who differ with you are wrong ONLY if the New Testament explicitly commanded that "the spirit of..." concept was the only scriptural concept about this matter. Since the New Testament DOES NOT carry any such command, and given the fact that we have mention of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together to boot, then your conclusion is not scripturally justified.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit

April 14 2013, 2:43 AM 

The "arrangement" of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" is your own idea. You just listed a number of issues including baptism, vocal music, the Lord's Supper, etc. Excepting the Trinity issue from such a list is also your own idea. Now, making that exception is nonsensical. By the way, vocal music is not a command. That, too, is your idea.

You've been making assertions that do not deal specifically with the issue of the Roman Catholic Church/papacy-invented, pagan-rooted Trinity Creed. The Trinity Creed declares that the Holy Spirit is the third PERSON, masculine-gendered God [which man-made creed unfortunately influenced versions including the KJV to capitalize the word "spirit" [[which is NOT masculine]], and capitalize as well its modifier "holy" [[which is an adjective]] -- and then refer to the phrase "Holy Spirit" as a proper name]. As a grammarian, did it even cross your mind to examine how an improper noun ("spirit") preceded by an adjective ("holy") suddenly became the proper name of a supreme being?

Your dissertation (philosophical excuses and reasoning) has been noted. But I did not find any scriptural evidences to support whatever your belief system is. I don't even know what it is because you've only made generalizations and offered advice to be accepting and be open to options.

You are afraid to be explicit about what you really believe concerning God's holy spirit. Oh, I just mentioned "God's holy spirit." I imagine you are still clueless as to how impacting that expression truly is, considering your expertise in grammar. Well, let me help you -- I think you need it this time. When you carefully analyze the structure of the expression "God's holy spirit," the first question that should come to mind is: "WHOSE spirit?" Doesn't that suggest possession or ownership? OK, I'll leave everything else about grammar to you. Just consider the proper noun, the adjective that precedes the improper noun.

I am not afraid to present what the Scripture says unequivocally:

I do not reject Matt. 28:19 where it mentions "the holy spirit" along with the Father and the Son. I am here to prove that some 70 scriptural references that mention the expression "the spirit OF __________" [and you finally learned to fill in the blank properly] do provide clarification of the misconception of what "the holy spirit" is.

There is no contradiction whatsoever between: (1) the 70 references from the rest of the Holy Scripture and (2) Matt. 28:19. Why not? It's because all the other references to "the [holy] spirit of" are followed by the SOURCE -- the Lord. What else is there to explain other than to point out that "the holy spirit" BELONGS TO WHOM? Christians should be aware that the holy spirit belongs to the Lord [source], that it does not belong to the devil [source].

Therefore, I have no problem with "the holy spirit" being mentioned in Matt. 28:19. There is no contradiction for I know to whom the spirit belongs. And I'm scriptually comfortable in averring that the spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ is HOLY or that "the spirit of Christ the Lord IS the holy spirit."

I urge you to get involved in discussing specifics. I have no problem in understanding Matt. 28:19 and other passages, all of which deal with baptism "in the name of." Do you?

  • Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (Matt. 28:19

  • ---------------------------------------

  • Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

  • (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) [Acts 8:16]

  • And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. (Acts 10:48)

  • When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19:5)
When we "rightly divide the word of truth," there is no contradiction.

The spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ is HOLY.

The title of this thread: "The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit."

 
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B
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74.179.245.39

Re: The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit

April 14 2013, 9:03 AM 

Such a tirade from you! All simply because we are free to form our own perceptions about the "arrangement" of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Remember, the New Testament provides no explicit command about how we are to perceive that arrangement.

So everyone must agree with the perception that you have personally chosen, or they are dead wrong--right? Now could it be that those who disagree with your personal choice are in danger of hell? Is that kinda lurking somewhere near the surface and just itching to break loose? Oh, I hope you're not that medieval.

Let's just say that you have chosen the biblical perception "the spirit of..." and will stick with that, whereas I have chosen the equally biblical perception "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" and will stick with that.

OK, I'll give you the last word [for now], seeing that's what you most earnestly desire. happy.gif

=====================

Again, this post of yours is a continuation of the same excuses. No solid argument for what you really believe (of which I still have no idea and about which I have no choice but to assume you're aligned with the Trinity creed). You keep quoting "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" which is fine, but you're not presenting anything to prove that the "Holy Ghost" is the Trinity's 3rd PERSON God. If you really believe in the Trinity Creed, that's just fine and acceptable. Just be honest about it.

ConcernedMembers never forces anyone to accept its views. All it's doing is present scriptural references and documented historical evidences.

My last post was an attempt to prove that "the Holy Spirit" as an entity mentioned in Matt. 28:19 is actually "the Spirit of the Lord God" that the 70 passages mention. There's no contradiction in all of those passages.

All you needed to say is you either disagree or disagree. And either way would have been fine with me.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Apr 14, 2013 7:52 PM


 
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B
(no login)
98.87.23.168

Re: The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit

April 14 2013, 9:02 PM 

I've already told you several times what I believe and provided the biblical reference. I gather you reject that answer and the biblical reference, because they do not exactly agree with your concept of this subject. Either that, or you've allowed your preoccupation with the preposition "of" to cloud your ability to recognize my answer and my biblical reference, in which case they would only appear to you as "excuses."

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.177.16

Re: The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit

April 13 2013, 7:43 PM 

Jesus mentioned Father, Son and Spirit to REPUDIATE the always pagan triads or families of God. People who boast of not reading have no right to know:

Father, Spirit (mother, Dove) and Son are ALWAYS the Pagan THESIS of polytheism. God presents the ANTITHESIS almost always.

Jesus made it clear as ABC that God purposed to show that there was only ONE Divine Being (there cannot be three Almighties). He did this by endorsing Jesus as having ALL of the power or authority of the ALWAYS-Pagan "Father, Spirit(mother) and Son. God pronounced the man Jesus of Nazareth to be a SON whereas in Judasim where they worshipped the Queen of Heaven and in Babylon to which they were abandoned BECAUSE of their polytheism.

The ONE Almighty is FATHER or creator of all material things and the spirits of mankind: His WORD and WISDOM (Sophia or Spirit according to the Jews) were WITH GOD because they WERE GOD. God's spirit and Word are His "breath" (to fool the foolish materialists) and His ARTICULATED or projected Power.

The ONE Father MADE TO BE both Lord and Christ, Jesus of Nazareth: that REFUTES the eternal blasphemy of the ALWAYS-PAGAN trinities.

QUOTING: God is not a sexual being, either male or female--something that was considered to be true in ancient Near Eastern religion. He even speaks specifically against such a view in

Numbers 23:19 God is NOT a man, that he should lie; neither the SON of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

where the text has God saying he is not a man [ish], and in in which he warns against creating a graven image of himself in "the likeness of male and female." But though he is not a male, the "formless" deity (Deut 4:15) has chosen to reveal himself largely in masculine ways

Deuteronomy 4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves;
.....for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb
.....>out of the midst of the fire:
Deuteronomy 4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image,
.....the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
Deuteronomy 4:17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth,
.....the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
Deuteronomy 4:18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground,
.....the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Deuteronomy 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven,
.....and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars,
.....even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them,
.....and serve them, which the LORD thy God
.....hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.


When in art a human material form is used to represent the Holy Spirit, that form is usually that of the male human body, without meaning to attribute such physical features to the reality represented. For example, in the rare cases of depiction of the Trinity

The DOVE, for readers of clay tablets was the MOTHER goddess. God used the dove or "carrier pigeon" as the image of the Holy Spirit along with BREATH because that is what carries the MIND of the one God to the MOUTH of the Son as personified WORD.

as three identical persons [entities], the Holy Spirit is represented as male, in line with the depictions of the Father and the Son.

And that violates the direct commands of the ONE LORD among many "gods" or Elohim. You CANNOT ignore the clear message of Jesus and think of father, son and spirit as separate entities without GENERATING an image or IDOL of God.

There are some Christian groups who teach that the Holy Spirit is feminine or has feminine aspects. Most are based on the grammatical gender of the words in the original Bible languages where the Holy Spirit is the subject. In Hebrew the word for spirit (ruach) is feminine. In Aramaic also, the language generally considered to have been spoken by Jesus, the word is feminine. However, in Greek the word (pneuma) is neuter. This is not thought by most linguists to have significance for the sex of the person given that name.



 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.197.176.151

Re: The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit

April 14 2013, 10:13 PM 

[linked image]
-------------------

An excellent illustration: "the spirit of man" vs. "the spirit of God"


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Apr 16, 2013 1:30 AM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Prepositions Can Be Such a Pain!!!

April 15 2013, 1:47 AM 

Ken,

One of my messages above (but not the initial post) was titled: "Prepositions Can Be Such a Pain!!!"

I have used examples to illustrate the significance of the preposition "OF"; I have done searches from the entire Holy Scripture [used the KJV] to provide counts where either "the spirit OF" or "the holy spirit OF" is referenced. Well, as accurate stats do not lie, there are at least 70 references to either expression, in addition to passages that refer to "His spirit" or "the spirit OF Him." (By the way, I provided these stats in my initial post.)

I even cautioned: "Hopefully, you've paid careful attention to reading and studying [NOT speed-reading] all the passages above."

It is so simple that one does not have to be as educated as our "resident English professor" in order to comprehend the significance of the two-letter word; how that it indicates "possession" or "ownership" or even the "source." Strangely, for example, the Trinity preachers proclaim about "the Spirit OF God" and are clueless as to its implication. They interpret "the holy Spirit OF God" as "the Holy Spirit IS God." Funny, that even though the preposition "OF" and the verb "IS" have something in common, i.e., they're both two-letter words, they have colossal differences in meaning.

The parallel or contrast you showed illustrates the point: "the spirit OF man" vs. "the spirit OF God." Better yet: "the unholy spirit OF man" vs. "the holy spirit OF God."

Here's another example that's humorous (I think I've mentioned this before) is about THE NOSE.

a. The nose OF Durante, a human being.
b. Durante has a nose [hope so]
c. The big nose OF Durante.
d. Durante owns that big nose.
e. Trinitarians would argue that the nose is a separate being
f. Trinitarians would declare that the Big Nose IS Durante.


I know ... I know that studying the preposition "OF" is very boring.

And certain people will continue to be uncomfortable in believing that "the Holy Spirit" [capitalized by translators] in the expression "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19) is identified in those 70 references as "the holy spirit OF the Lord God/the Father/His Son Jesus Christ."

 
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B
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74.179.15.214

Make It Simple

April 15 2013, 9:10 AM 

Just make it simple. You want to believe in the concept of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as non- persons, non-physical beings? Fine. They're mentioned together in the New Testament, so no problem. We don't even need to call them "Trinity" if that term causes anxiety.

You feel more comfortable instead with the concept of "the spirit of..."? Fine. That concept is also mentioned in the New Testament, so no problem.

The New Testament does not stipulate that one concept is acceptable and the other is not; therefore, BOTH are acceptable.

Simple.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Make It Simple: It Is "the Holy Spirit OF God"

April 15 2013, 10:32 PM 

I NEVER see the expression "in the name of the Father, Son and the holy spirit" as a problem. You DO ... when the preposition in "the spirit OF" is in the picture.

You are the one creating the problem by pitting Matt. 28:19 against the 70 references that clearly define and identify "the holy spirit."

I have said numerous times already that there is no contradiction between Matt. 28:19 and the 70 scriptural references. So, here's the big question for you. Please be honest. Do you believe that "the holy spirit" in Matt. 28:19 is DIFFERENT from "the holy spirit" (with the preposition "OF") identified by/in those 70 passages?

(1) Do you rely on the Trinitarian creed that there is a separate THIRD PERSON HOLY SPIRIT = GOD?
---------------------- OR --------------------
(2) Do you trust the scores and scores of passages that clearly identify "the holy spirit" as "the spirit of God"?

BOTH are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

And you cannot have it both ways, B.

Again, the Scripture (some 70 passages) explain that:

"In the name of the Father, the Son and the holy Spirit"
--------------- is the same as -----------------
"In the name of the Father, the Son and the holy Spirit OF God"


Do you recall the very well-known passage in Eph. 4:30? It says: "And grieve not the holy Spirit OF God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

So explicit: that there is only one "HOLY SPIRIT." WHOSE spirit, B? God's Spirit which is HOLY. Thank our Lord God that it is HIS spirit which is holy, instead of a spirit that is evil.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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