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Possessive Case: "HIS" Holy Spirit Is Not Another Divine Being

May 24 2013 at 3:27 AM
Donnie Cruz  (Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
from IP address 99.177.250.192

GRAMMAR 101a: Preposition "OF" Indicates Ownership By the Owner
At the outset (cf. "The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit"), I mentioned that:

There are innumerable references to the truth that the "holy spirit" is an entity or an attribute WHICH belongs to ______________:

  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord (26 references in O.T.; Luke 4:18; Acts 5:9; 8:39; II Cor. 3:17,18)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF God (14 references in O.T.; 12 references in N.T.)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF our God (I Cor. 6:11)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the living God (II Cor. 3:3)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Christ (Rom. 8:9; I Peter 1:11)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him (Rom. 8:11)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord God (Isa. 61:1)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF His Son (Gal. 4:6)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the holy Spirit OF God (Eph. 4:30)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Father (Matt. 10:20)

In case the reader is not convinced that "the Holy Spirit OF ________" grammatically proves ownership of the "Holy Spirit" by the Lord God, meaning that what is OWNED is NOT THE OWNER, we have another [but similar] grammar lesson (cf. the following):



GRAMMAR 101b: Possessive Case Pronouns Used to Show Ownership
The possessive case pronoun is used to show ownership. While a possessive adjective may modify a noun, a possessive pronoun replaces the adjective and the noun with a single word.

Possessive pronouns allow you to reduce repetition and wordiness in your sentences.

I'd lend you a car, but my brother borrowed my car. [possessive adjective + noun]
I'd lend you a car, but my brother borrowed mine. [possessive pronoun]

Possessive case pronouns include the following:


==========================================================
........... 1st Person ... 2nd Person..... 3rd Person ....
==========================================================
Singular: .... mine ........ yours ........ his, hers, its
----------------------------------------------------------
Plural:....... ours ........ yours ........ theirs .......
==========================================================


KEY POINT: When the Holy Scripture specifies or identifies the object of POSSESSION (Holy Spirit), the truth also reveals the POSSESSOR -- God the Father and/or His Son Jesus Christ. It is extremely important to KNOW that the same Holy Scripture clearly illustrates the relationship between: [1] God the Father and [2] His Son Jesus Christ the Lord. Where is the Holy Spirit in this relationship? Note the following passages:

  • Grace to you and peace from God our Father, AND the Lord Jesus Christ. (Rom. 1[7])
  • Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 1[3])
  • Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Cor 1[2])
  • Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ. (Eph. 1[2])
  • Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ. (Phil. 1[2])
  • Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ. (Col. 1[2])
  • ... in God the Father AND in the Lord Jesus Christ: (1 Thess. 1[1])
  • Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, AND the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 1[1])
  • ... in God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ: (2 Thess. 1[1])
  • Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Thess. 1[2])
  • Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father AND Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Tim. 1[2])
  • Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ. (Phlm. 1[3])

Where is the Holy Spirit in the relationship between the Father and His Son Jesus Christ? We've briefly asserted that the POSSESSION cannot be the POSSESSOR. The Trinitarian concept "that the Holy Spirit as the THIRD PERSON is God" is contradicting the truth "that the Holy Spirit belongs to God." In other words, the Trinitarians' translation of the expression "the Holy Spirit of God" would yield "the God of God." How did I come up with "the God of God"? I did not. The Nicene Creed self-destructed itself by identifying "the Holy Spirit" as "God." Let me explain further: simply substitute the word "God" for "Holy Spirit." A third grader can play this word game very well and come up with this substitution:

1. Trinity Creed: ------- "Holy Spirit" = "God"
2. Scripture: ----------- "The Holy Spirit of God" (Ephesians 4:30)
3. Smart 3rd Grader: ---- "The God of God [correct substitution happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif]

1. Trinity Creed: ------- "The Spirit" = "God"
2. Scripture: ----------- "The Spirit of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:10)
3. Smart 3rd Grader: ---- "God of Jesus Christ" [correct substitution happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif]


OK, let's get to the crux of the matter. Possessive Case Pronouns!!! we'll quote the following passages that show just WHO owns the Holy Spirit. [Beware!!! Let your own interpretation match the truth]:

  • But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son ... that we might receive the adoption of sons.... God hath sent forth the Spirit of HIS Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (Gal. 4:4-6)

  • But God hath revealed them unto us by HIS Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit WHICH is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (I Cor. 2:10-12)

  • No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of HIS Spirit. (John 4:12-13)

  • But they rebelled, and vexed HIS holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put HIS holy Spirit within him? (Isaiah 63:10,11)

  • For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us HIS holy Spirit. (I Thess. 4:7,8)

  • But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of HIM that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Rom. 8:9-11)

"The [unholy] spirit of man" in I cor. 2:10-12 is included above to contrast IT with "the holy Spirit of God." Is "the spirit of man" the person "man"? I think not. Is "the spirit of God" God"? I think not.

Finally, speaking of redemption, justification and sanctification:
1. We are redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ (I John 1:7; I Cor. 6:11).
2. We are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus (I Cor. 6:11).
3. We are sanctified by the spirit of our God (I Cor. 6:11; Rom. 15:16).

What's the difference between "the blood of Jesus Christ" which redeems and "the spirit of Jesus Christ" which sanctifies? Who authorizes one to teach that Christ's spirit is God, but that Christ's blood is not God? [Remember: Possessive Case Pronouns.] Trinitarians???

 
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Re: Possessive Case: "HIS" Holy Spirit Is Not Another Divine Being

May 25 2013, 5:47 PM 

I found this to be a good read. This is from the preacher files. Of course we do not expect all conservative brethren to agree on every doctrinal matter. More can be found at:

http://preachersfiles.com/what-the-bible-says-about-the-holy-spirit-1/


[linked image]


############################


What the Bible Says About The Holy Spirit #1

By Tom Moore


INTRODUCTION:

A. The study of the Holy Spirit is a very fascinating, fundamental and foundational study for the child of God.

B. The study of the Holy Spirit is both challenging and consoling, both interesting and intriguing, and both controversial and complex.

C. Minds brilliant and minds not so brilliant have given serious thought to the glorious being of the Holy Spirit.

DISCUSSION:

A. WHY STUDY THE HOLY SPIRIT?

1. It is a biblical theme

a. He was active in the creation Psalm 104:30

b. He was active in the work done by the judges, prophets and kings

1) 2 Peter 1:21

2) 2 Samuel 23:2

c. His work permeates the New Testament note two brief examples:

1) Luke 1:35

2) John 16:8

d. The Holy Spirit is very much a Biblical theme from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22 this should wet our spiritual appetite to study this subject.

2. To appreciate more fully His mission

a. God created man in his image Genesis 1:26-27

b. Yet, Gods crown of creation toppled into transgression

c. Heavens mission onward was mans redemption

1) The Father was the Divine Architect

2) The Son was the Divine Executor of pardons plan

3) The Spirit became the Divine Revealer

d. The less we know about the Godhead the less we know about the scheme of redemption

e. The Holy Spirit plays a part in the redemptive process, and we will show how in later lessons

3. To be able to speak correctly of Him

a. The language of Ashdod was not just a problem faced by Nehemiah (13:23-24). It is still very much with us today.

b. Sound doctrine must be couched in sound words

1) Titus 2:1, 8

2) 2 Timothy 1:13

c. The denominational world is very careless in this regard

d. This has been especially true in their emotionally directed terms relative to the Holy Spirit and to His person and mission.

e. Many of our own brethren have climbed on the bandwagon of Ashdod using unbiblical terms.

4. To be able to refute errors taught relative to Him

a. We have a twofold obligations here:

1) To detect error

2) To refute error

b. False Pentecostal positions concerning the Holy Spirit are being accepted more and more by the masses. A few of examples:

1) That the Holy Spirit Baptism still exists today

2) That the Holy Spirit works on the heart separate and apart from the word of God

3) Present day miracles

5. To accept and appreciate the all-sufficiency of His inspired product

a. To have a false or warped view of the Holy Spirit is to depreciate Biblical inspiration

b. Many count themselves equal with the apostles saying they are miraculously inspired.

c. Many are claiming that the Bible is insufficient and that the indwelling of the Spirit does more for them thus, they weaken the Spirits ability in providing all truth

1) John 14:26

2) 2 Timothy 3:16-17

3) 2 Peter 1:3

B. SCRIPTURAL NAMES

1. The Old Testament the Spirit of God (Genesis 1:2), My spirit (Genesis 6:3), the Spirit of the Lord (Jdg. 6:34; 2 Samuel 23:2), the good spirit (Nehemiah 9:20), they holy spirit (Psalm 51:11), the Spirit of the Lord God (Isaiah 61:1), his holy Spirit (Isaiah 63:11) and the spirit (Ezekiel 2:2).

2. The New Testament

a. In the KJV he is called the Holy Ghost.

1) Ghost today does not mean what it did in 1611

2) In 1611 ghost meant guest

b. He is called Spirit of God (Matthew 3:16), the Spirit (Matthew 4:1), the Spirit of your Father (Matthew 10:20), my spirit (Matthew 12:18), the Spirit of the Lord (Luke 4:18), the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13), Comforter (John 14:16), the Spirit of truth (John 14:17), spirit of holiness (Romans 1:4), Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), Spirit of his Son (Gal. 4:6), the holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13), the holy Spirit of God (Ephesians 4:30), the eternal Spirit (Hebrews 9:14), and the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 3:1).

C. IS THE GODHEAD ONE OR THREE?

1. The Godhead is the divine family there are three that constitute the Godhead.

a. Manhood is what makes man a man.

b. Womanhood is what makes woman a woman.

c. The Godhead is what makes God God.

2. The case from the Old Testament

a. Genesis 1:1 Elohim a plural word

1) The second and third persons of the Godhead were involved in creation

2) John 1:1-3 Jesus involved

3) Job 26:13 The Holy Spirit involved

b. There is the use of plural pronouns:

1) Genesis 1:26

2) Genesis 3:22-23

3) Genesis 11:7

4) Isaiah 6:8

c. That unique us is a precious portrait of the active Godhead at work in caring for the creation and the caring out of their plans and purposes.

3. The case from the synoptics

a. In the initial chapter of Matthew all three of the Godhead are mentioned

b. Mark 1:9-11 all three present

c. Luke 1:32-35 all three mentioned

4. The case from Johns gospel record John 1:29-32 all three mentioned

5. The case in Acts Acts 10:38 all three mentioned

6. The case in the epistles Jude 20-21 all three mentioned

7. The case in Revelation Revelation 1:4-6 all three mentioned

8. Conclusions reached

a. Three divine persons compose the Godhead.

b. There is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

c. The Father is the Divine Architect, the Son is the Divine Executor, and the Holy Spirit is the Divine Revealer.

CONCLUSION:

A. There is much to learn concerning the Holy Spirit

B. Being uninformed or misinformed can weaken our faith

*Thoughts from The Bible Doctrine of the Holy Spirit by Robert R. Taylor

Filed under Sermon Outlines, Topical Sermon Outlines and also Bible, Genesis, Holy, Holy Spirit, Spirit, Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit.





 
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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Possessive Case: "HIS" Holy Spirit Is Not Another Divine Being

May 25 2013, 6:54 PM 

This is not new to me. Call it "from" conservative brethren or not, it is the view held by most Protestant and Catholic leaders.

Just because God's holy spirit [possessive case pronoun "His" for "God's"] is able to do all of the above doesn't mean that you should assign or designate a masculine gender to the holy spirit of Jesus Christ. The translators, wherever it occurs, needed to assign a gender which should have been an "it" instead of "he" -- we've dealt with this several times already.

Key point: Don't underestimate the capability of THE HOLY SPIRIT OF CHRIST OUR LORD or GOD THE FATHER to do all these things. In other words, you cannot separate the "spirit" or "mind" or "power" from its possessor and then designate "IT" as a divine being.

I know it takes some time for some folks to understand grammatical rules.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Possessive Case: "HIS" Holy Spirit Is Not Another Divine Being

May 25 2013, 9:18 PM 

If you refer to the Holy Spirit as "it" because the Holy Spirit has no gender, then you might as well refer to God as "it," because God in heaven also has no gender. Although while on earth Jesus was a man and was referred to has "he," you might as well refer to Jesus in heaven as "it," because Jesus now also has no gender. While the Bible consistently assigns a masculine-authority role to God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit by referring to each one as "he," it makes no sense to go off on a tangent and suddenly assign the neutral pronoun "it" only to the Holy Spirit. If you assign "it" to one, then assign "it" to all.

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Re: Possessive Case: "HIS" Holy Spirit Is Not Another Divine Being

May 26 2013, 12:08 PM 

There is a valid reason for God to be of masculine gender. Remember the dozen passages I quoted at the outset that SPECIFICALLY addressed God as "God the Father"? If not, please review and study those passages. I would not address "the Father" as a "she" or as an "it."

I would not address Jesus Christ our Lord as a "she" or as an "it," either.

Please look up the definition of the word "spirit." The Holy Scripture speaks of "the spirit of man." The Scripture speaks of "the spirit of God." Quite a contrast!!! On that basis, would you classify "man's spirit" as "man"? I think not. Would I classify "God's spirit" as "God"? I think not. There goes the preposition "of," as well as the contraction [grammatical, not muscular happy.gif ] -- both to show possession or ownership. We've already discussed this -- that what is owned is not the owner; what is possessed is not the possessor.

The word "spirit" is defined scripturally as "wind" or "power" or "mind" or "breath," etc. It is a common or an improper noun, of neuter gender. In the Scripture, God's spirit (not man's spirit) is modified by the adjective "holy"; thus "the holy spirit OF God" or "the holy spirit OF the Lord Jesus Christ."

The point is that "the holy spirit" of God our Lord is that WHICH belongs to the Lord God. Only man (the Nicene Creed, the Roman Catholic Church, the papacy) has invented the doctrine that "the holy spirit of God" is God.

Keep in mind, too, that in all instances, the definite article "the" PRECEDES the expression "spirit" or "holy spirit." What's that supposed to mean? "The spirit of" is hardly an expression for a proper noun. "The holy spirit OF" is not an expression for a proper noun.


  • 1. "God the Father" is unequivocally masculine -- the Holy Scripture mentions that at least a dozen times. Thanks to the Scripture: it does not mention "God the Mother." Of course, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that the Virgin Mary is the Mother of God.

  • 2. The Lord "Jesus Christ" is undoubtedly masculine.

  • 3. "The holy spirit" WHICH BELONGS to the Father or the Lord Jesus Christ is not masculine; it is not feminine, either. What other gender could be assigned to that which is owned by the Lord God?


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on May 26, 2013 12:21 PM


 
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Anonymous
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Re: Possessive Case: "HIS" Holy Spirit Is Not Another Divine Being

May 26 2013, 2:58 PM 

I agree with the Bible in referring to the Father and Son as "He." I also agree with the Bible in referring to the Holy Spirit as "He." I know of no mainstream translation that refers to the Holy Spirit as "it"; instead, translations call the Holy Spirit "He," regardless of the fact that the Holy Spirit is not a "third person." Since we know that neither the Father nor the Son are persons, yet each is referred to as "He" in the Bible, then it is only proper and consistent to keep referring to the Holy Spirit as "He."

If, however, you feel strongly that the Holy Spirit is an "it," then perhaps you could persuade one of the more progressive Bible publishers, like Zondervan, to publish a Bible that refers to the Holy Spirit as "it."

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Re: Possessive Case: "HIS" Holy Spirit Is Not Another Divine Being

May 26 2013, 3:30 PM 

I really appreciate your dialogue.

You have a point if we leave and/or accept translations alone as they are or if we have no concerns about proper or improper translations.

Please review my response to another message you posted -- it is regarding translations of the Greek New Testament. ((I have made a research/study a few years ago in which I listed:

(1) passages which used "he" or "him" in reference to "God's holy spirit" [oops! there's that ownership again]; also,

(2) passages which used "it" or "itself" or "which" in reference to "the holy spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ" [oops! there's that "owned" vs. "owner" again].

Somehow I misplaced my study notes.))

 
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Ken Sublett
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Re: Possessive Case: "HIS" Holy Spirit Is Not Another Divine Being

May 25 2013, 9:20 PM 

What a SHAME that there are THREE persons (people) in the THEOS and the BREATH of God don't do nothing. Godhead is not a word: the word is THEOS. Jesus was MADE TO BE both LORD KURIOS and MESSIAH. Jesus is always KURIOS and never THEOS. Messiah is of the SEED of Abraham: he and we are the SONS OF GOD after we are baptized: the VOICE did not say that IT was pleased BEFORE Jesus was baptized. Therefore, Jesus was never THEOS. The FALL was in worshiping the Egyptian TRINITY: Jesus always reveals the ANTITHESIS. Here is what Jesus has to REPUDIATE but most people can't read because they might have been DIPPED (so I can eat that bread) but do not have A holy spirit. Here is that fluttering Isis ready to bring forth a son: Horus

[linked image]

Mark 1:9-11 all three present

This person cannot read CONTEXT either.

Mark 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water,
.....he saw the heavens opened,
.....and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven,
.....saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


The DOVE was a symbol of the DAUGHTER of a MOTHER goddess. The parables are to fool the foolish who do nothing but collect isolated verses.

Jesus said that THE FATHER IS WITHIN ME: "Father" is NEVER the name of a person.

The Holy Spirit LOOKS like a dove or it FLUTTERED like a dove: in Geneses it was the WIND that fluttered over the waters
A SYMBOL is not the THING.
There is no mention of a FATHER but a VOICE confessing that Jesus is the SON and not co-equal with the ONE GOD. The ONE JEHOVAH gave Jesus of Nazareth (the Holy Spirit Comforter) the AUTHORITY: he was not Lord (Kurios) until Jehovah MADE Him Lord or gave Him rulership.

John 12:29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it,
.....said that it thundered:
.....others said, An angel spake to him.


Jesus didn't say that it was JEHOVAH but:

John 12:30 Jesus answered and said,
.....This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world:
.....now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth,
.....will draw all men unto me.


It is pretty easy to despise the Word meaning to blaspheme by CLAIMING that Jesus wasn't smart enough at these events to say "Jehovah sent the Holy Spirit person to tell you that I TOO am a God. He interpreted it as a SIGN.

The Babylon Mother of Harlots in Revelation 17 uses SORCERERS: this is a word identifying the original Babylonian sorceress. Those who have denied that Jesus represented the GODHEAD BODILY in one person have added the "lusted after fruits" same as in Amos and the worship teams. Allof this is proof of the worship of the MOTHER GODDESS which is NECESSARY if you say that the Spirit OF God was another person: the MOTHER GODDESS in person.

[linked image]




    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.193.3.187 on May 25, 2013 9:56 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
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Re: Possessive Case: "HIS" Holy Spirit Is Not Another Divine Being

May 26 2013, 1:01 PM 

Tom MooreLuke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

The Glorified Jesus was given the PROMISE (evangel office) of The Holy Spirit. When a SPIRIT Being speaks WORDS (sons) the words ARE Spirit.

John 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
John 6:63 It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are life.

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you,
.....doeth he it by the works of the law,
.....or by the hearing of faith?

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ
.....by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace,
.....from God [Theos] our Father,
.....and from the Lord [Kurios] Jesus Christ.


Jesus was of the SPERM of Abraham: He was not a GOD [Theos]person even though HIS Spirit and ours always existed.
Jesus was not a [Theos] but a [Kurios]

Jesus was not [Kurios] until the ONE GOD made Him to Be: God also gave Jesus to PROVE that the always-pagan trinity is NOT father, mother (spirit, dove) and sex-generated son impregnated by the DOVE mother

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
.....that God [Theos] hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified,
.....both Lord and Christ. [Kurios]

Ephesians 1:17 That the God [Theos]
.....of our Lord [Kurios] Jesus Christ, the Father of glory,
.....may give unto you the spirit OF wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:


WHICH IS DEFINED FOR THOSE WITH A HOLY SPIRIT AS:

Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.193.13.60 on May 26, 2013 10:52 PM


 
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CAUTION: NEXT PICTURE IS EXPLICIT

May 26 2013, 2:22 PM 

[linked image]

=============================

Well, Big Fish, some people need a vivid illustration to help them clearly understand the substance of a fallacious doctrinal argument. (A picture is worth a thousand words -- isn't that what they say?)

I think it took a while to search and find that illustration online. Someone must have thought, understandably so, that designating a masculine gender to an improper noun "spirit" can be illustrated in that manner. happy.gif


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on May 26, 2013 2:33 PM


 
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Re: CAUTION: NEXT PICTURE IS EXPLICIT

May 27 2013, 1:57 PM 

Donnie, Mr. Sublett is very adamant and diligent in his work. Likely he poured over countless websites in his quest. I am sure he searched long and hard to find the perfect ..... illustration. Mr. Sublett enjoys his passions. happy.gif

ps: Ken, I hope you take it in a spirit that it was given. happy.gif



[linked image]

 
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Donnie
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Re: CAUTION: NEXT PICTURE IS EXPLICIT

May 27 2013, 2:41 PM 

Ken Sublett is very resourceful -- a religious encyclopedia specialist -- and I am very, very impressed. He's got all his references handy.

Ken (an engineer) and Donnie (an IT programmer/analyst) have much in common. In engineering and in computer programming and analysis, logic should be thoroughly tested for all conditions, failures and anomalies.

The same is true with man-made doctrines and creeds. They all should pass the test when matched against what the Holy Scripture teaches.

 
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Re: Possessive Case: "HIS" Holy Spirit Is Not Another Divine Being

May 26 2013, 2:38 PM 

Anonymous
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Re: Possessive Case: "HIS" Holy Spirit Is Not Another Divine Being
May 25 2013, 9:28 PM


Just remember that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not bound by man-made "grammatical rules." They are who they are, regardless of man's vain and feeble attempts to categorize and cage them grammatically.

 
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Donnie Cruz
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Caging "The Trinity" Grammatically

May 26 2013, 3:07 PM 

Even translations of the Greek New Testament should be bound by "grammatical rules." There are many instances in which the gender must be assigned as the subject of a clause in order to complete the meaning of a statement, such as by any of the following pronouns (he, she, it, etc.).

A good example (among many) is found in John 1:32. "And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and [___________] abode upon him."

Inconsistent as translators and translations may be, that passage is translated correctly in that the pronoun "it" preceding the word completes the meaning of the passage. Oops!!! The translator referred to "the Spirit" as an "it."

Inconsistent as translators and translations may be, here's another passage that is translated correctly in Romans 8:16. "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."

There are other passages with the same grammatical structure.

Translations beginning in the 1500s have been influenced by the Trinity Doctrine made official by the Nicene Creed (Roman Catholic Church, the emperor and the papacy) in the 4th century. Translators identified the 3rd PERSON HOLY SPIRIT as God based on the Trinity Creed -- and used, in a number of instances, the pronoun "HE" to assign a masculine gender to the spirit of God which is holy.

I have researched that there are times when translators forget about God's holy spirit being masculine. This is not a complete list of passages, but they certainly validate (without the influence of the Trinity Creed) that God's holy spirit is not another Divine Being:

  • (But this spake he of the Spirit, WHICH they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) [John 7:39]

  • Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit WHICH is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (I Cor. 2:12)

  • For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, WHICH ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. (II Cor. 11:4)

  • And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit WHICH he hath given us. (I John 3:24)

If God's holy spirit were a separate Divine Being, these and other passages would not have used the word "which," but rather "Who" or "Whom." Trinitarians would erroneously identify as follows:

  • ... the Spirit, WHOM they that believe on him should receive
  • ... the spirit WHO is of God
  • ... spirit, WHOM ye have not received
  • ... the Spirit WHOM he hath given us

Thanks to grammatical rules. There are times when passages dealing with "the spirit of the Lord" are correctly translated; there are times when they are not. "WHICH" and "IT" and "ITSELF" are correct.

 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Re: Caging "The Trinity" Grammatically

May 26 2013, 3:51 PM 

Tom Moore and Fish Spirit OF fishinessJob 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Job 26:1 But Job answered and said,
Job 26:2 How hast thou helped him that is without power? how savest thou the arm that hath no strength?
Job 26:3 How hast thou counselled him that hath no wisdom? and how hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is?
Job 26:4 To whom hast thou uttered words?
and WHOSE spirit came from thee?

Job 26:5 Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.
Job 26:6 Hell is naked before HIM, and destruction hath no covering.
Job 26:7 HE stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
Job 26:8 HE bindeth up the waters in HIS thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.
Job 26:9 HE holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth HIS cloud upon it.
Job 26:10 HE hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
Job 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at HIS reproof.
Job 26:12 HE divideth the sea with HIS power, and by HIS understanding HE smiteth through the proud.
Job 26:13 HIS SPIRIT HE hath garnished the heavens; HIS HAND hath formed the crooked serpent.
Job 26:14 Lo, these are parts of HIS ways: but how little a portion is heard of HIM? but the thunder of HIS power who can understand?

Job 27:1 Moreover Job continued HIS parable, and said,

Notice that the HAND is to God what our hand is to us and that God's Spirit has the same relationship to God as God's Spirit. His Spirit takes the gender of the person. He has the SPIRIT of nastiness is a real PERSON only in the case of posters who are locked up in "father, spirit (mother) and spirit".

HIS is another one of those "spirit OF grammer wickedness" to fool the foolish.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.193.13.60 on May 26, 2013 10:55 PM


 
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Anonymous
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Re: Caging "The Trinity" Grammatically

May 26 2013, 4:24 PM 

We need to trust the ancient translators to be correct; otherwise, why trust ANYTHING in the Bible they translated? If we say one passage is translated correctly whereas another passage is translated incorrectly, then we give the impression that we accept or reject different passages of translation based only on our personal preferences and biases. That's selective theology. Since the Bible translators gave a masculine pronoun to the Holy Spirit, then to contradict them with "it" says that all the translators were wrong and only the few people today who call the Holy Spirit "it" are right. That line of reasoning is similar to the person who suffers from the delusion that s/he is the only sane person in the world and everybody else is crazy. Therefore, the I-alone-am-right-and-all-the-rest-of-you-are-wrong tactic just doesn't cut the mustard.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Caging "The Trinity" Grammatically

May 26 2013, 6:27 PM 

Speaking of allegedly "wrong" translations or "spurious" translations, some folks assert that the last 12 verses of Mark are "spurious" and should not even be in the New Testament. Of course, they happen not be believe that baptism is essential for salvation, so they "conveniently" find a way to scratch the final 12 verses of Mark to suit their own preferences. And then some Bible commentaries by denominationalists assert that Acts 2:38 was either "wrongly" translated or that Peter didn't really teach that baptism was a requirement for the forgiveness of sins. Such people assert that, upon accepting Christ as your personal Savior, you are forgiven first, and baptism comes later.

Likewise, people show their personal preferences by asserting that all the Bible translators were "wrong" to refer to the Holy Spirit as "he" instead of "it," despite the fact that those translators consistently referred to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit alike as "he."

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Re: Caging "The Trinity" Grammatically

May 26 2013, 7:05 PM 

I essentially agree with your first paragraph. There are also other alleged "additions" [a set of verses] to another book in the New Testament. We can discuss that at some other time -- it is really a different issue.

For now, we are dealing with another issue where the text is already there -- it is not an added text, but it has to do with the definition of the word "spirit"; how it is modified by the adjective "holy"; how "the holy spirit" is "masculine-genderized" by the translator.

I think what would really help in the study of "God's holy spirit" is getting rid of [even temporarily] our preconceived notion that the Trinity Doctrine is scriptural. (In other words, "pretend" that the man-conconcted creed ever existed.) We need to refresh the mind; be open to the study of the passages in context.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Caging "The Trinity" Grammatically

May 26 2013, 8:51 PM 

If we must necessarily put away "Trinity" because that term does not exist in Scripture, then we must also put away the terms "Bible" and "Holy Bible," because those terms also do not exist in Scripture. Those two latter terms are man-made, yet we would never think of deleting them from our vocabularies, because they are well-accepted terms that do not violate any Scriptural principles. No, we can't use the it-ain't-in-Scripture bit against the "Trinity" unless we want to follow a double standard.

I do not believe calling Father, Son, and Holy Spirit the "Trinity" violates any Scriptural principles, given that we know they are not three physical persons. I also believe that it is unreasonable to reject the term "Trinity" just because the Catholics coined it. Early (Catholic) Church fathers like Chrysostom in the fourth century first referred to the Scriptures as ta biblia (the books) which evolved to "Bible" in English. So, if we reject "Trinity" because of the Catholic influence, then we must also reject "Bible" because of the SAME influence.

 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
70.193.13.60

Re: Caging "The Trinity" Grammatically

May 26 2013, 10:09 PM 

When you use human imagination, you get self-inflicted wounds as usual. Historic scholars used TRIAS but they never defined three separated "persons" and described that as HERESY: they would burn such people back them.

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

[17] et traditus est illi liber prophetae Esaiae et ut revolvit librum invenit locum ubi SCRIPTUM erat

Luke 4:17 kai epedoth aut biblion tou prophtou saiou, kai anoixas to BIBLIONheuren ton topon hou n gegrammenon

biblion or bublion , to,
A.strip of bublos, Thphr.HP4.8.4: hence, paper, document, Hdt.1.123, 3.128, Ar.Av.974, etc.; to b. tou psphismatos IG22.1.61; b. apostasiou notice of divorce, Ev.Matt.19.7.
2. = biblidion, petition to the Government, = Lat. libellus, BGU422 (ii A. D.), POxy.86.16 (iv A. D.), etc.
3. = deltos, tablet, LXX To.7.14.
II. book, Eup.304, Theognet.1.8, Pl.Ap.26d, etc.; mega b. ison t megal kak Call.Fr.359.
2. book as the division of a work, en t prt b. Dsc.2 Praef., Ph.1.329, etc.
3. ta b. place in which books are kept, library, anethkate eis ta b. D.Chr.37.8.
4. ta b. ta hagia the sacred books or Scriptures, LXX 1 Ma.12.9; ta b. tou nomou ib.1.56.


 
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