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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.18.198

Re: Apollyon: Jim Hackney Heritage Church of Christ

June 22 2013, 11:33 AM 

Missed prepositions again?

IN the HEART is a PLACE: PAUL said sing AND make melody IN THE HEART. No one can HEAR you!

Paul and the Spirit were not STUPID as people claim. The passage even by simple simon would be

SING and make melody WITH your MOUTH.

Peter warned that people WRESTLE Paul to their own destruction because they cannot grasp that Paul ALWAYS writes to say what he WANTS to be understood and THEN defines the pagan antithesis.

[linked image]

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.243.189

Re: Apollyon: Jim Hackney Heritage Church of Christ

June 22 2013, 12:32 PM 

The singing of praise is made with the mouth; the actual melody is made in the heart. Neither you have told us, nor have I found, where the New Testament specifies that singing hymns is sinful. I gather that when you attend the worship assembly and the congregation begins to sing hymns, you keep quiet. Or perhaps you loudly SPEAK out in protest, telling the congregants that they are sinning if they sing those hymns instead of speaking them.

Perhaps you say something like, "STOP IT! STOP that sangin'! Don't you know you're supposed to SPEAK them hymns? Don't you know that Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 says to SPEAK in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs? Never mind about the part that says to SING and make melody in the heart. That don't count anyway! What don't you guys understand about SPEAK? It's SPEAK, SPEAK, SPEAK, S-P-E-A-K!! Here, lemme give you all the whole etymology of SPEAK! If you sang them hymns, you are SINNIN', oh wow, lemme tell you right now!!"

Now if you pulled that stuff or something like it, I'm sure the congregation would just cut to the chase and ask you to leave. happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.18.198

Re: Apollyon: Jim Hackney Heritage Church of Christ

June 22 2013, 12:47 PM 

Paul said SPEAK the BIBLICAL TEXT because the SING was called SORCERY

of the word epôidai The law against witches does not prove that there be any but it punishes the malice, etc. [Demosthenes]

You are correct as usual: there is no LAW which says 'Thou shalt NOT be a Sorcer.'

John said that they will be cast alive into the Lake of fire. There is no law which SAITH "thou shalt not be cast alive into the lake of fire."

There is NO musicating which is not a PREDESTINED and defacto-obvious attempt (and success) to keep Jesus SILENT in RESOURCE and PRESENTATION STYLE. He always guarded against gouging out the RATIONAL or SPIRITUAL giving heed to the WORDS of Christ as the ONE-PIECE-PATTERN for A Church of Christ from the wilderness onward.

You know of NO ONE nor have HEARD of anyone who SANGS hymns (theirs) who intends to obey the DIRECT COMMAND to "use one mind and one mouth to speak that which is written for our learning."

Music means "to keep the lambs dumb before the slaughter." It CERTAINLY works, doesn't it.



 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.243.189

Re: Apollyon: Jim Hackney Heritage Church of Christ

June 22 2013, 1:14 PM 

There is also no law that says, "Thou shalt only speak hymns, for it is sinful to sing them." If Paul thought that all singing was "sorcery," then he really contradicted himself in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 when he said to sing and make melody in the heart. Even if that latter phrase is taken metaphorically and the melodious "singing" is to be made only in the heart, it's still a monstrous contradiction because, according to Paul and you, ALL singing (literal and metaphorical) is "sorcery." To the rest of us, that does not compute.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

"Thou shalt only speak hymns...." -- WHERE is this?

June 22 2013, 4:02 PM 

Bill, there's no such law. Then, you have just created a NEW law (Bill's law) based on your lack of knowledge of the etymology of the word "hymned" -- a verb that may or may not require an object.

The definition of the word "hymned" (a verb) in "they hymned" should take into serious consideration what the word meant in the context of how it was used in the first century. If the verb requires an object, the question would be -- "they hymned" [a] WHAT? So, then, they hymned a psalm or hallel from the O.T.

Now, you tell us HOW they "hymned" during the time of Christ and the apostles. Certainly, not in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir or Baptist Choir format. So, "they hymned" ... how? Then, the synagogue assembly (not to be confused with "temple worship" where IM was acceptable) would be a good basis for that type of "hymning." This is where you are failing to understand -- and end up with absurd searches for where do you find: "Thou shalt only speak hymns, for it is sinful to sing them."

You have majored in MUSIC in your attempt [I often wonder if you're even making an attempt] to truly and honestly understand what Paul's MAJOR thrust was when he addressed his epistles to the Colossian and Ephesian churches. Here's the MAJOR thrust: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly...." That [letting the word of Christ dwell in] is the command and is to be accomplished so that in the assembly of saints, the "TEACHING and ADMONISHING ONE ANOTHER" occurs.

"SPEAKING IN psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" will accomplish that goal in the teaching and adominishing one another. "SINGING and making melody IN YOUR HEART" -- that's not forbidden [and that should answer your doubt] -- but how do you do so? It says "IN YOUR HEART." Should that be CCM (contemporary "Christian music") style? Mormon Choir style? Praise Team style? Singing style where the "word of Christ" is not lost in the crowd?

There's the preposition dilemma again -- IN. Things to consider, then:

(a) "SPEAKING IN ... hymns ..." [using the "mouth"?] ------------- to one another;
(b) "SINGING IN ... your heart[s]" ------------ to the Lord.

The New Testament will not allow anyone to MAJOR in vocal music in order to conform to its teachings. On the other hand, the New Testament will continue to command "to let the word of Christ DWELL in you richly." "Vocal music," which is only a type of music, is not the command. In your argument, you have drowned out "the word of Christ" with your musical emphasis.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.244.120

Re: "Thou shalt only speak hymns...." -- WHERE is this?

June 22 2013, 6:08 PM 

As I said earlier, there is no law in the New Testament that states, "Thou shalt only speak hymns, for it is sinful to sing them." However, that is the basic idea that Donnie and Ken are pitching. Because they have become so enamored with the etymology of "hymned," they would have us drop all singing of hymns and have them spoken instead.

Earlier, Ken told us that Paul said singing is "sorcery." That is really amazing; however, since I do not find Paul stating anything of the kind in the KJV New Testament, then we must conclude that Ken alone concocted that idea, unless he found it in one of the Catholic Bibles. happy.gif

OK, let's just suppose, for the moment, that all singing is sorcery as Ken says. That means the "singing and making melody in your hearts" from Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 is sorcery. Even if we take that passage and turn it into a metaphor in which the melodious singing is done only in the heart, and if we apply Ken's reasoning, that form of metaphorical "singing" would also be sorcery. If we believe Ken, then any and all forms of singing, literal and metaphorical, are sorcery, whereupon we would have to dispense with the latter half of Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 altogether. Of course, that would be ridiculous.

I think we know where to file Ken's idea that singing is "sorcery." Of course, there's nothing wrong with "speaking" hymns, if that's what a congregation prefers, but if Ken or Donnie try to tell us that singing hymns is in some way sinful, we know where to file that, too. happy.gif

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: "Thou shalt only speak hymns...." -- WHERE is this?

June 22 2013, 7:33 PM 

Bill,

One should not have a habit of using the word "only" or "all" riskily -- that's what you are doing to distort and mislead.

Hopefully, you are a very happy man now as you continue to reject the significance of the etymology of words and expressions. Evidently to you, hymning in the first century (chanting or simple, monotonic singing as in recitation) is of the same meaning and context as hymning today (including contemporary "Christian" music). But I really think you know so much better than that.

You can redeem yourself by researching it; let us know. Why? Because you are boring when you put words in someone else's mouth.

Musicology does not equate with what the New Testament commands.



 
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Anonymous
(no login)
64.234.85.61

Re: Apollyon: Jim Hackney Heritage Church of Christ

June 22 2013, 3:11 PM 

Ken said "Complex harmony is a Legalistic end-run around the NO MACHINES ALLOWED."

Ken, nice dance. For one minute, NO singing or music is allowed, but now "COMPLEX" harmony is no good. So....chanting or singing without harmony is good, but not four-part. Yeaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh..ok.

You a democrat? Sound like it. It sounds like this, but could be that. It all depends on what is is.

 
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ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.18.198

Re: Apollyon: Jim Hackney Heritage Church of Christ

June 22 2013, 3:36 PM 

A cappella is that of the Pope's Castrated Worship team: they sang ORGANUM which was an early form of harmony meaning 'ala pipe organ.'

The Pope (and a clergy near you) thought that the LITERALLY CASTRATED singers gave more bang for the BUCKS than the FALSETTOS: you will remember that religious musicians must be MALES but they must perform the ROLL for DOLE as females. David did that.

[linked image]

Cybele had early become identified with the Cretan divinity Rhea (ZOE), the Mother of the Gods, and to some extent with Demeter, the search of Cyhele for Attis being compared with that of Demeter for Persephone.

The especial worship of Cybele was conducted by emasculated priests called Galli (or, as in vv. 12 and 34, with reference to their physical condition, Gallæ)

The worship of the Magna Mater, or Mater Idæa, as she was often called (perhaps from identification with Rhea of the Cretan Mt. Ida rather than from the Trojan Mt. Ida), was introduced into Rome in 205 B.C. in accordance with a Sibylline oracle which foretold thatonly so could `a foreign enemy' (i.e. Hannibal) be driven from Italy.

The early connection of Attis with the Mother of the Gods seems to point to the association of

an original male element with an original female element as the parents of all things. But in the age of tradition Attis appears as a servant instead of an equal,

and the subordination of the male to the female element is further emphasized by the representation of Attis, like the Galli of historic times, as an emasculated priest.


The Babylon Mother of harlots (Revelation 17) uses "lusted after fruits" (same as in Amos 8) as speakers, singers, instrument player or ANY pretend "god operator" including the grinders (prostitutes selling ANY of your body skins for a god). John calls the SORCERERS and the will be cast alive into the Lake of Fire. I believe they are getting an early start by being consumed or burned up by the breath (spirit) of their own lips.

PAUL OUTLAWED THEM Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. Galatians 5:11

As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! Galatians 5:12


If you are "Afflicted with the female disease then we can understand."

The Goddess Cybele (The Sophia - Zoe Usurpation)

"Here, devote to me thy manhood and become one of my faithful dogs! (Philippians 3 emasculated priests howl out songs) I shall be quick, and the cut will be clean!!!" Catullus:

"Oh, Great Goddess, Goddess Cybele, Goddess and Lady of Dindymus! May all your fury be far from my house! Incite others, go! DRIVE OTHER MEN MAD!!!"

http://www.piney.com/MuCyprActor.html

Cyprian demands: 2. Nor let any one excuse himself that he himself has given up the theatre, while he is still teaching the art to others. For he cannot appear to have given it up who substitutes others in his place,

and who, instead of himself alone, supplies many in his stead; against God's appointment, instructing and teaching in what way a man may be broken down into a woman, and his sex changed by art


The internet just ROARS with derision about the Feminine Worship Leader: but, I hear, the Devil cannot blush.

Just CANNOT grasp that A Church of Christ is a School (only) of the Word (only) defined inclusively and exclusively as the Church in the Wilderness which OUTLALWED vocal or instrumental rejoicing: this was a LAW to threaten HARM to any simpleton who made NOISE pretending to replace the Word.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.210.18.198 on Jun 22, 2013 3:42 PM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Apollyon: Jim Hackney Heritage Church of Christ

June 22 2013, 4:08 PM 

I've included the following in my message to Bill above (earlier):

The New Testament will not allow anyone to MAJOR in vocal music in order to conform to its teachings. On the other hand, the New Testament will continue to command "to let the word of Christ DWELL in you richly." "Vocal music," which is only a type of music, is not the command. In your argument, you have drowned out "the word of Christ" with your musical emphasis.

 
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ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.18.1

Re: Apollyon: Jim Hackney Heritage Church of Christ

June 22 2013, 4:32 PM 

The presbyterians continue with responsive reading: that is a traditional thing that churches of Christ are not good at because it has little practice. The Presbyterians then and now at some level call "lining out" where the leader reads a part and the congregation repeats this. Without song books I will bet that people would actually learn something: I have been "sanging" about 78 years and I cannot repeat a single line to a single song in any COLOR song book.

Because singing or chanting was based on a number of syllables, someone with talent could set the Text to some kind of rhythmic prose so you can TEACH and ADMONISH. Singing metrical psalms would help since they were never used for "congregational worship" but were TEACHING songs: If you sing about bashing out the heads of infants as worship rather than LEARNING the poetic history that would not be a good thing.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.7.41

Re: Apollyon: Jim Hackney Heritage Church of Christ

June 22 2013, 7:23 PM 

After the local congregation got virtually destroyed, I have written for not these 16 years that:

The Spirit OF Christ defined the Qahal, synagogue, ekklesia or Church of Christ (the Rock) in the wilderness as

INCLUSIVE of Rest, Reading and Rehearsing the Word of God
EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing or self-speak preaching.

http://www.piney.com/Synagogue1.html

And Calvin's version when he proposed RESTORING THE CHURCH OF CHRIST:

http://www.piney.com/Calvin.Numbers.10.html

That was never violated by the godly Jews nor Jesus nor anyone for about 400 years when SINGING as an ACT was discordingly imposed.

Thomas Campbell defined the MEANING of Restoration

http://www.piney.com/RMTCWorship.html

"let us, with an open bible before us, distinguish and contemplate that religion which it enjoins and exhibits--I mean the religion of christianity, for it also exhibits the religion of Judaism;
but with this, in the mean time,
we christians have nothing directly to do--
we derive our religion immediately from the New Testament. TC

"The author and ultimate object of our holy religion, is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, by his Spirit, speaking in Christ and his holy apostles."The principle of this holy religion within us, is faith, a correspondent faith; that is, a belief, or inwrought persuasion by, and according to, the word of truth,

in all points corresponding to the revelation which God has made of himself through Jesus Christ by the Spirit.

1. Hence, being rooted and grounded in the truth of this revelation, by faith in the divine testimony,

2. we contemplate and worship God inwardly;
that is, adore and reverence him in our souls, according to the characters and attributes under which he has revealed himself to us.

Thus we have the internal religion, the habitual worship of the real believer, the sincere bible-taught christian with its principle; which is the faith above described. See Rom. x. 12-15.

"But that this may be the case, the next immediate ordinance of the christian religion, namely,

the reading, I mean the musing upon, or studying the Holy Scriptures;
taking them up in their connexion, and meditating upon the subjects they propose to our consideration, with a fixed contemplation of the various and important objects which they present.

This dutiful and religious use of the bible, (that most precious, sacred record of the wonderful works of God, the only authentic source of all religious information,) is inseparably connected with, and indispensably necessary to, the blissful and all-important exercises of prayer and praise.


After these 16 years I know of NO recently-spawned and diverted preacher who can confess that: they have all bought into the Shelly etal folly that "the only role of Church is to worship" meaning THEY perform and YOU pay.

Those who PRAY TOGETHER as legal ritual STRAY TOGETHER. That is why the DIRECT COMMAND for PRAYER as a major RITUAL is outlawed by Jesus:

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites (actors perform acts) are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. Matthew 6:5

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. Matthew 6:6


 
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Scripture
(no login)
98.87.29.183

Daniel Sommer

June 22 2013, 10:18 PM 

One of the reasons for not having instrumental music according to Daniel Sommer was that the words to the song were not understandable. I think another reason was that it violated the simplicity of the worship.

These were not the reasons that most people gave after that time--that it was wrong because there was no mention of it in the New Testament (that is from Acts 2 through Jude).

If Sommer were to enter this discussion, he might reason from understandability and simplicity. Any change that made the words less understandable would be objected by him. Any attempt to make changes that were complex would be a step toward vanity.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.242.54

Re: Apollyon: Jim Hackney Heritage Church of Christ

June 22 2013, 9:34 PM 

Donnie, I guess you've already talked with the "worship leader" (song leader) at Madison about the necessity of speaking the hymns instead of singing them. I'm sure he agreed to replace all the hymnals with text-only versions.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Apollyon: Jim Hackney Heritage Church of Christ

July 2 2013, 1:39 AM 

Haven't I read somewhere that Alexander Campbell's compiled songbook did not have musical notes? [Know the history of modern music notation?] It appears that hymn recitation was beneficial to the RM Christians in that era.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.204.54

Re: Apollyon: Jim Hackney Heritage Church of Christ

July 2 2013, 8:01 AM 

The hymnals didn't have musical notes, because hardly anyone except professional musicians could even READ music at the time.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.5.118

Re: Apollyon: Jim Hackney Heritage Church of Christ

July 2 2013, 12:09 PM 

That's true: Watt's Psalter and others had notes but if you look up the MIDI versions you will see that even though there might be a dozen versions they all sounded alike.

Campbell would have probably grown up reading and using musical notations: However, he omitted lots of the lyrics which contained false teaching and had no notations. They were usually sung with one of about 5 melodies.

Nashville at the time was a center of music, music publishers and opra houses where major performers were happy to visit.

If you visit 21Century Book Store you can see one of Alexander's personal Living Oracles and his song book.

The Standard Publishing claims that Campbell gave the book to him but others claim that they stole it. They published it WITH notations and the shape-versus-round warfare began. Standard worked so hard subverting Churches of Christ because JOINING the Organ and Society Party meant that you bought your "approved" song book and Sunday School material from them and the Sunday School was not controlled by the Elders anymore.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.7.41

Re: Apollyon: Jim Hackney Heritage Church of Christ

June 22 2013, 10:30 PM 

We have shown over and over that the direct command is to speak that which is written for our learning. A Disciple of Christ is a STUDENT of Christ by the Spirit of Christ in the Prophets (only) and the prophecies made more certain by Jesus of Nazareth and left for our memory as the eye-- and ear-- witnesses wrote their PART of the PERFECT.

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon [Educatled] the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

HERE IS THE INCLUSIVE AND EXCLUSIVE COMMAND FROM THE CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS ONWARD.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


A sorcer lies about the CENI because they will NOT obey this direct command for ANY person who has a role to play. If Jesus commanded what to TEACH, which is judged by the SCHOOL FOR DISCIPLES, only a fool would say "but HE didn't tell me NOT to steal your property and make it into a Theater for Holy Entertainment. If you look for angels of LIGHT or BLIGHT where else would you find them other than a confiscated pulpit: they think that YOU cannot see them and they are MOSTLY right.

However one twists the "singing" concept, as Donnie noted, the PURPOSE is to Teach and COMFORT and Rebuke:

Colossians 3:16

1.Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; [Logos is opposite to poetry or music]

2. teaching [instructing] and admonishing [warn, rebuke] one another [No professional usurper]
in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,

3. singing with grace IN your hearts TO the Lord.


FACT:
I know of no one who either uses the WORD of Christ (what He commanded to be taught) nor anyone who engages in SINGING the Psalms: Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs are ALL types of songs in the BOOK of psalms. Today HYMNS are considered self-composed ditties.

Psalms teach and WARN us what not to do.

I know of no one who does not use human compositions out of their own imagination: most are limp wristed and sentimental junk.

1. Since NO one sings to TEACH the Word or WARN with the message of the Psalms.

2. Since, everyone rushed to procure them a worship leader skilled in dramatic presentation to ATTRACT the world.

3. The defacto use of rhetoric, singing, playing or drama (the hypocritic arts and crafts) is proven by the Biblical text to be SORCERY or ENCHANTMENT: that is trying to SAVE MORE SOULS through external means of manipulating their fickle sentiments.

4. Therefore, all recorded history defines ANY and ALL human means beyond the command to the elders to TEACH THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT as SORCERY: that Pharmacy word because complex music keeps ALL of the brain cells diverted trying to keep track of each overtone. It is a scholarly fact that the falling over to the next measure MASKS the HURT with a delusional mass of overtones so that what HURTS you can be sold as PLEASURE or even the SPIRIT'S influence and that is spelled BLASPHEMY.

Those whom the musicators EXCLUDE including many youth feel DAMAGED and barely able to face the work world on Monday after Sunday as the most WORKS-INTENSIVE and anxiety-producing day. Satan loves it.




 
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Anonymous won
(no login)
108.230.197.238

The Truth

June 23 2013, 10:41 AM 

The churches of Christ will all be singing this morning. It is their doctrine.

The cracks between Concerned Members and the church of Christ grow larger.

Perhaps, it is time to go your own way.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.9.100

Re: The Truth

June 23 2013, 11:44 AM 

Could you supply the NAMES of the Cracks?

Very FEW will be doing CCM or Rock and Roll or having people claiming to be MEDIATORS standing in the"holy places."

The Spirit OF (preposition: not your SENIOR king set over us) Christ defined the INCLUSIVE and EXCLUSVE PATTERN for an Ekkleaia or Synagogue.

Even though Alexander Campbell select a song book (he was a publisher and not a parasite),

PSALMS, hymns, and spiritual songs, embrace the praises of christians. Psalms are historic compositions, or poetic NARRATIVES. Hymns are odes of praise directly addressing the object of worship, and declaring his excellencies and glorious works. Spiritual songs are such compositions as declare the sentiments derived from the revelations of God, and such as are adapted to communicate to others the views and feelings which God's revelations suggest. Thus we define them. The reasons of this distribution are not obvious to all, nor is it needful to go into a labored criticism to establish them, as the end will be gained much better by an attention to the classification we have made in this new selection of psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, than by any critique independent of such a specimen.

Our hymn books are, in general, a collection of everything under the sun in the form of religious rhyme


The Campbells speak of a local SOCIETY which was not a 'church' but Worship was defined as the UNIVERSAL pattern:

Church is A School of Christ (missed that in Phduh, Huh?)
Worship is READING and MUSING the Word.

The Campbells were out of PSALMODY ONLY and the pattern for faithful Presbyterians was called lINING OUT: you know in the MISSED factoid "teach and correct" ONE ANOTHER--the Levites as your Staff-infection PATTERNS were called soothsayers which also meant SORCERERS. So the PROGRESSIVES(all the way back to Babylon) are NOT remotely related to the Biblical and historic Church of Christ: An ASSEMBLY of Christ will be teaching WHAT JESUS commanded to be taught: Peter made that include the PROPHETS and APOSTLES. Now, if you plan to BUILD or EDUCATED on the profits and apostates you WILL BE (have) cast alive into the Lake of fire.

SO, it is logically illogical that you plan to spit in the fact of Jesus who died (not) for your sins:

Romans 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Romans 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.


So, Paul said that THE WAY to glorify or praise is to MUTUALLY CONFESS Jesus by speaking HIS Word. I would say that it is PROPHESIED that you would FLAUNT that deliberate divisiveness. Elders are NOT elders if they are "more APT to chase a coon than APT to teach the Word (only) as it HAS BEEN taught. NOW, you know why Paul warned about people who cannot read BLACK text on WHITE paper.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.210.9.100 on Jun 23, 2013 11:49 AM


 
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This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!

...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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