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Dave
(no login)
130.127.42.38

Here Kitty Kitty

August 30 2013, 8:44 AM 

Ken,
This discussion used to be about Vacation Bible School, right? See what I mean?
happy.gif

Have a great weekend Ken.

 
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You
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.11.46

Re: Here Kitty Kitty

August 30 2013, 10:31 AM 

You brought up the im?

 
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A-Won
(no login)
108.230.197.238

The Holy Spirit

August 31 2013, 11:31 AM 

Donnie, perhaps you wear blinders when studying about the Holy Spirit? Of course we all have an opinion. Chill a bit and read the article.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://getwellchurchofchrist.org/articles/article0003.html

"Perhaps the best way to understand the operation of the Holy Spirit is to consider the degree of His bestowal upon men. Preliminarily, however, we are reminded that the Holy Spirit is a person, the third member of the Godhead or Deity (II Cor. 13:14; Rom. 1:20)."

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: The Holy Spirit

August 31 2013, 2:46 PM 

A-Won,

I'm not wearing blinders. That's the reason why I made that MAJOR SHIFT:

(1) FROM: believing the invented Trinity Creed [invented by the Pope, the eventual Roman Catholic Church and the Roman Emperor with pagan background] ...

(2) TO: believing and trusting in what the Scripture teaches about GOD's holy Spirit. WHOSE [possessive] Spirit? Not the devil's spirit! Not man's spirit! But God's Spirit!

Preposition "OF":

That's what stated in the expression "the holy Spirit OF God" (EPHESIANS 4:30). God is the possessor. The "Holy Spirit" is His possession. The possessor is NOT the possession.

The Scripture has NEVER indicated the Trinity's version of "the Holy Spirit" as the third [why not first or second?] Person also called God.

The Restoration Movement, Alexander Campbell and others DID NOT endorse or propagate the man-invented Trinity Doctrine. Even the early hymn publishers and editors in the brotherhood chose "God overall and blest eternally" over "God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity" in the popular hymn "Holy, Holy, Holy."

Regardless of what Wayne Jackson and the Getwell church say about their acquired Trinity doctrine, Campbell and RM would not endorse the man-made creed -- even if it is that popular worldwide.

RM agrees with the Scripture and disagrees with the speculation [man's deductive reasoning].

The "Spirit of Jesus Christ" or "the Spirit of the Father" is "the Holy Spirit." One cannot separate "the Spirit" from Whom it belongs.

Now, let's see who is wearing those blinders?

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.248.159

Re: The Holy Spirit

August 31 2013, 3:09 PM 

Donnie continues to "recycle" the preposition "OF."

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: The Holy Spirit

August 31 2013, 3:46 PM 

Bill, as the resident grammar EXPERT, should be the one recycling "the preposition OF" as it certainly affects the SCOPE of the discussion regarding "the holy Spirit OF God."

I can only be led to believe that since the preposition "OF" negates his pre-conditioned stance on the Trinity Creed, he will not do it.

Since the grammar expert refuses to even explain why he is so opposed to teaching us "grammar," I am doing it to the best of my ability.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

VBS and Materials

August 31 2013, 1:40 AM 

Greetings, Dave!

No.

Yes, you're partly correct -- the discussion is/should be about VBS, but the initial post expressed concern about materials used especially those not published by our own brotherhood. It said: "... I know that Group Publishing has at least a very trinitarian tilt to their materials."

Bible students should really be concerned about doctrines and creeds that have been "acquired" especially those from the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church. The "Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed" is a great example of that. I'm not surprised that even "the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary" is in the Creed.

As a very serious student of the Bible, I find that out of the "evidences" for and against the invented Trinity Doctrine [authorized and approved in 325AD, 381AD] -- which had existed several centuries before the KJV of 1611 and other versions of the Bible -- the preposition "OF" in several expressions associated with "the Holy Spirit" really makes a strong case against the man-concocted Trinity Doctrine.

There is a colossal difference between:

(1) The TRUTH: "The holy Spirit OF God" [Ephesians 4:30]
----------------------------- and -----------------------------
(2) The TRINITY CREED: The 3rd Person, separate Being "Holy Spirit IS God"


Yes, Dave, the "Trinitarian tilt" is just one of those doctrinal matters we ought to consider, research, study, learn -- not just instrumental music.

The Restoration principle is still applicable today -- the REAL Law of Silence: "We speak where the Bible speaks, and we are silent where the Bible is silent."


 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.12.221

Re: VBS and Materials

August 31 2013, 9:50 AM 

Donnie has complained about those who "recycle" arguments (especially the arguments he rejects), yet he continues to "recycle" his arguments about the preposition "OF" in thread after thread. Therefore, it is only fair to recall again those previously cited verses that more than indicate the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity. Not God, but a distinct entity nonetheless.

For example, in Acts 20:28, the Holy Spirit makes us overseers of the Church. In Romans 8:26, the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us. Of course, there are other verses.

People can close their minds and fixate on those verses with the preposition "OF" from now until Judgment Day, but we must consider the WHOLE Word of God, which ultimately does show us that the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity. Not a physical "person," but a distinct entity nonetheless.

And it is also fair to mention yet again that the New Testament gives absolutely NO indication that our eternal salvation depends on how we perceive the Holy Spirit. Therefore, those who subscribe to "the spirit OF..." are just as entitled to that perception as those who subscribe to the perception that the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity.

As long as we believe that the Holy Spirit EXISTS and functions, the rest is all a matter of personal perception.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: VBS and Materials

August 31 2013, 3:37 PM 

No, Bill, Acts 20:28 does not prove that "the Holy Ghost" is a separate Divine Being or Third Person that the Trinity Creed espouses.

1. The expression "the holy spirit" [capitalized by Trinity-influenced translators] is a descriptive element (improper noun "spirit" is modified by an adjective "holy"); it is not a proper name; it is not a Divine Being's name. [As a grammar specialist, you should know that ... should know better than that!]

2. Both "the Spirit of Jesus Christ" and "the Spirit of the Father," as well as numerous other expressions with the preposition "OF," refer to "the Holy Spirit."

Even Trinitarians know and believe that "the Spirit of God" IS "THE HOLY SPIRIT" or simply "THE SPIRIT." They're just ignoring the preposition "of" -- just like you do.

3. On that basis, it is "the holy Spirit OF God" (Eph. 4:30) that has made the elders overseers.

4. The message "the Holy Spirit hath made you overseers" was directed to the elders -- not to just any Christian. That you, Bill, were/are an elder, I have no way of knowing. I can only assume that you were/are an elder as stated in the second paragraph of your post.

Again, NO, Bill, Romans 8:26 does not indicate that "the holy spirit is a separate Divine Being or Third Person that the Trinity Creed espouses for the same reasons as already mentioned above. In fact, YOU MISSED the expression "but the Spirit ITSELF maketh intercession..." And here's the supporting cast: "[v. 16] The Spirit ITSELF beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God...."

The passages you presented contradict your own tenet that "the Spirit of God" be ASSIGNED a MASCULINE gender. "The Spirit ITSELF" shows the translators' inconsistencies and confusion when ASSIGNING the gender of God's holy spirit.

As a grammarian, Bill, how would you assign the gender to "itself"?

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.210.189

Re: VBS and Materials

August 31 2013, 4:27 PM 

Of course Acts 20:28 doesn't prove anything to YOU, Donnie, because you've fixated on and recycled the preposition "OF" so much and for so long that you're incapable of perceiving the Holy Spirit any other way. Although many of us have different perceptions of Holy Spirit from your own, we don't begrudge your particular perception. To those of us who are just as discerning but far less narrow-minded, however, Acts 20:28 and other verses are proof enough that the Holy Spirit is a distinct, non-person entity who is neither God nor Jesus.

Donnie, you certainly have the right to your personal perception of the Holy Spirit based solely on the proposition "OF," and you have the right to deny all other perceptions. But as I said earlier, it's all a matter of personal perception, even if you will not or cannot accept that.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: VBS and Materials

August 31 2013, 5:02 PM 

It is really unfortunate that "OF" is insignificant to you.

It is unfortunate that you ignored "itself" in reference to "the Spirit itself."

I'm not going to ask you to diagram the 70 passages that use the preposition "OF" in those instances.

You can at least diagram Ephesians 4:30 --

"And grieve not the holy Spirit OF God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

English professor?

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.247.103

Re: VBS and Materials

August 31 2013, 10:10 PM 

I never said "OF" is "insignificant." YOU, on the other hand, seem to DENY that there is more than one biblical way to perceive the Holy Spirit. YOUR one-and-only way is "the spirit OF..." Another way is to perceive the Holy Spirit as a distinct entity who is neither God nor Christ. BOTH ways have biblical support, as we have previously noted. I regret that profound narrow-mindedness prevents you from accepting BOTH ways, because in the long run, it really doesn't matter which way we lean in our perception of the Holy Spirit. Our perception would be vitally important IF and only IF our eternal destiny were contingent upon that perception. However, we have NO evidence to that effect in the New Testament. Therefore, bashing believers' personal perceptions of the Holy Spirit is pure arrogance.

Both of us can keep recycling our arguments until Judgment Day, if that's what you want.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: VBS and Materials

August 31 2013, 10:38 PM 

Bill,

I used to believe [BLINDLY!!!] what you now believe.

"Not a salvation issue" is not an argument.

Just prove your "perception" or imagination by Scripture. Then, I'll change my mind again.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.7.75

Re: Vacation Bible School

August 31 2013, 11:40 AM 

William responds:Therefore, it is only fair to recall again those previously cited verses that more than indicate the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity. Not God, but a distinct entity nonetheless.

That's true: His name is Jesus Christ the Righteous as the "another" Comforter 2 John 1.

For example, in Acts 20:28, the Holy Spirit makes us overseers of the Church.

Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock,
.....over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,
.....to FEED the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


That's True: His name is Jesus Christ: It is called The Church of Christ who shed his own blood. Since God did not shed His blood, this says that the HOLY GHOST is HE that purchased the Church with HIS own blood. In His glorified state Jesus is not flesh and blood but He is SPIRIT which has never and can never define an entity other than demons. When Jesus gave the SOP (Psallo) Mark, Satan ENTERED INTO Judas.

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the GIFT of CHRIST.
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When HE ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and [Christ] gave gifts unto men.
Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens,
..... that he might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:11 And HE gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;
.....and some, pastors and teachers;


Elders are the only Pastor-Teachers in a congregation: If they are gifted by Christ they will as a MARK "teach that which HAS BEEN taught." Jesus said that His Words which had been taught ARE SPIRIT (John 6:63). Words speak: they are not divine entities.

Christ Who inspired Apostles to record His witness as WORD and God gave Him the role as Holy (wholly) Spirit. Inspiration says that CHRIST gave gifts to OVERSEERS. Their gift was to preach the WORD by that Holy Spirit Sent back at Pentecost.

He did not give men to write ANTI-BIBLICAL sermons: He did not gift a single singer or instrument player. In fact, in Ezekiel 33 these HYPOCRITES are named as self-speakers, singers and instrument players. In addition the Greeks and Paul said that selling the word at retail is called ADULTERY and the Greeks knew them as PROSTITUTES.

TEACHING is the CENI which people CLAIM they cannot find.. Their task was to CAST OUT all of the cunning craftsmen (speakers, singerss, instrument players) SO THAT they could PREACH the Word by READING the Word.

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Edification means EDUCATION: Christians are Disciples of Christ and they go to A SCHOOL OF CHRIST and not a pagan "worship ritual" working really hard to try to prop up Jesus.

John says that if you deny the ONE God the Father and ONE Jesus made to be both Lord and Christ and Spirit then you are an ANTICHRIST.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.240.208.157

Re: Vacation Bible School

August 31 2013, 12:00 PM 

I do believe if Jesus made us overseers of the Church instead of the Holy Spirit, then the New Testament would have said so. But NO, the New Testament says that it is the HOLY SPIRIT who makes us overseers of the Church.

But if Ken wants to stick with "the spirit OF...." that's fine. Again, he is just as entitled to his personal perception of the Holy Spirit as others are equally entitled to perceive the Holy Spirit as a distinct, non-person entity who is neither God nor Christ.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Vacation Bible School

August 31 2013, 4:11 PM 

Bill, were/are you an elder? I'm just wondering because of your statement: "made us overseers." May I remind you that the message in Acts was directed to the elders and not just to any Christian?

The mention of "the HOLY SPIRIT" in Acts 20:28 does not prove what you and the Trinitarians espouse -- the Third Person, separate Divine Being also called "God." Not any more than man's "UNHOLY SPIRIT" becoming another human being.

"The Spirit OF Jesus Christ" is a.k.a. "the Holy Spirit."

"The Spirit OF the Father" is a.k.a. "the Holy Spirit."

"The Spirit OF the living God" is a.k.a. "the Holy Spirit."

How important is the understanding of the preposition "OF" in some 70 passages in both OT and OT!!!!!

Teach us grammar, Bill.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.210.189

Re: Vacation Bible School

August 31 2013, 4:37 PM 

Donnie, the preposition "OF" is so STUCK in your mind that you really cannot see any other verses in the Bible as leading to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity who is neither God nor Jesus. Your narrow-mindedness has indeed blinded you to the fact that people's different perceptions of the Holy Spirit, based on other verses, are just as valid as yours.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Vacation Bible School

August 31 2013, 4:55 PM 

No, Bill, covering the significance of the preposition "OF" is not being narrow-minded. It is ignoring its significance that is despicable.

I'm convinced now that the preposition "OF" negates your stance on the Trinity Doctrine. You will never accept the truth in Ephesians 4:30 -- "the holy Spirit OF God." Bill, that expression does NOT say: "the holy Spirit IS God." I've given up on you for not even having the capability to see the colossal difference. Even if given another simple example that "the unholy spirit OF man" is not the same as "the unholy spirit IS man."

You have NEVER cited a single scripture that identifies or proves the Third Person, Divine Being "Holy Spirit" as "God."

Start diagramming Ephesians 4:30 --

"And grieve not the holy Spirit OF God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.211.250

Re: Vacation Bible School

August 31 2013, 6:33 PM 

Donnie, you shouldn't be disturbed so much that some folks just perceive the Holy Spirit differently than you do. Your perception, based on "the spirit OF...," is just as valid as others, who base their perception on passages such as Acts 20:28 and Romans 8:26. Your denial of those other passages indicates that you think your perception is the ONLY correct one. That is arrogance.

A person is not narrow-minded if he can accept passages that mention "the spirit OF..." On the other hand, that same person IS hopelessly narrow-minded if he flatly denies that the example passages previously mentioned show the Holy spirit to be a distinct, non-person entity who is neither God nor Jesus. So how can the Holy Spirit to some be "the spirit OF God" AND to others be a distinct, non-person entity? Some would scoff and say, "Impossible!!" Oh ye of little faith! Remember that with God, all things are possible.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Acts 20:28 and Romans 8:26

August 31 2013, 10:29 PM 

Bill,

Open your eyes really wide.

There is no denial on my part of the 2 passages (Acts 20:28; Romans 8:26)). They simply DO NOT PROVE that there is a Third Person, separate Divine Being identified in those verses.

How many times have I explained this?????

You don't even have an explanation for:

(1) "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God" (Romans 8:16).

(2) "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." (Rom. 8:26)


By the way, Bill, I'm quoting the same passage you're quoting -- Romans 8:26.

"The Spirit" that you and the Trinitarians believe to be the Third Person God is mentioned in Romans 8:26. Correct and true!!!!

But NOTE, Bill, please, please, please.

In both verses, the ever-inconsistent-and-confused translators translated the expression "the Spirit ITSELF" correctly.

Why "the Spirit ITSELF" -- and not "the Spirit HIMSELF"????????????? Sounds like "the Spirit" has been transgendered [from masculine to neuter] by the earthlings.

 
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