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ken sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.3.164

Re: Vacation Bible School

August 31 2013, 9:24 PM 

You keep ignoring the fact that the elders, bishops, pastor-teachers were gifted by CHRIST. Read slowly.

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the GIFT of CHRIST.
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When HE ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and [Christ] gave gifts unto men.
Ephesians 4:11 And HE gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;
and some, pastors and teachers; (Elders)


If you keep denying this clear fact I can't help you. In His glorified or spirit STATE to which we will attain, He is called The Holy Spirit 2 John 1

When the Spirit OF Christ gives a gift then Christ gives the gift but the Spirit OF Christ is not another being.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.248.159

Re: Vacation Bible School

August 31 2013, 3:07 PM 

Don't know where Ken keeps coming up with "antichrist," because no one here is denying that Jesus is the Christ or that God is Lord. Maybe Ken thinks that if our perception of the Holy Spirit is another distinct, non-person spiritual entity, just as God and Jesus are non-person spiritual entities, then we are "antichrists." That is merely Ken's personal opinion, but the New Testament says NOTHING to the effect that perceiving the Holy Spirit as another distinct, non-person spiritual entity makes us "antichrists."

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

The "Godhead"

August 31 2013, 4:42 PM 

The "Godhead" is precisely described in Colossians 2. "The Spirit" or "the Holy Spirit" is NOT involved here -- contrary to "the Godhead" being equated to "the Trinity."

Colossians 2 CLEARLY mentions: (1) God the Father and (2) the Lord Jesus Christ His Son. [By the way, just as those salutations from the book of Acts to Jude: (1) God the Father and (2) the Lord Jesus Christ His Son.]

The epistle summarizes it in Colossians 2:9 -- "For in him [the Lord Jesus Christ] dwelleth all the FULNESS of the Godhead bodily."

"Fulness" does not mean "partial" or "in part." It is between (1) the Father and (2) His Son Jesus Christ. No more, no less.

What's involved here is that in "the Godhead," II John 1:7 states that "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh." There is not another [third] Divine Being involved in the process.

I John 2:22 says -- "He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

While it is true that no Christian denies "the Father and the Son," is not our prerogative to add a third Divine Being [non-existent according to the Scripture] to the Godhead, as the Trinity Creed espouses.

Adding a Third Divine Being is going beyond the truth that the Godhead involves "the Father and the Son." That is the definition of "antichrist" ... anti-Christ, anti-Godhead as the Scripture clearly explains it.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.7.75

Re: The "Godhead"

August 31 2013, 6:15 PM 

The Spirit OF Christ does not leave any room for legalistic loopholes.

I John 2:22 says -- "He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

People who do not know how to read think they can drive a Mac Truck between Father and Son.

Father is God (theos): Son is Lord (Kurios). Only ONE is the GOD but God made the man Jesus of Nazareth TO BE both Lord and Christ. From reading we know that Jesus was NOT Lord and Christ before He was MADE TO BE.

The ONE GOD breathes (spirit) what the Son SPEAKS without "metron." That most often means "Without METER." Speak is the OPPOSITE of song which now includes METER.

There is ONE GOD the Father and ONE Mediator between Man and God, the Man Jesus Christ. As the Spirit Comforter in John 14 His name is Jesus Christ the Righteous.

Sixth grade reading and mininmal reverence should not DEMAND that a spirit entity be REQUIRED to intercede between Father and Son.

If you do not teach the Spirit God (Theos) and the human Lord (Kurios) then John says you are ANTICHRIST because you are so far gone that you do not think that Jesus of Nazareth was capable without a HANDLER.

When inspiration States Father-Son you despise the Spirit OF Christ for leaving a legalistic loophole.

Jesus now Holy Spirit still the head of His Church and High priest, is the FULLNESS OF DEITY God presents as the IMAGE of the invisible.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.211.250

Re: The "Godhead"

August 31 2013, 6:40 PM 

Who denies Father and Son here at CM? Just as Donnie recycles "the spirit OF...." Ken recycles "antichrist." Apparently there are no more fresh, original topics to discuss. Maybe it's time for Donnie to start yet another thread about the Holy Spirit. Maybe Dave would like to start another thread about instrumental music. happy.gif

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: The "Godhead"

August 31 2013, 10:02 PM 

Bill,

Whenever you are incapable of proving your RECYCLED stance on "the holy Spirit OF God" being God, you resort to comments like the ones above.

It is common knowledge that the Trinity Creed teaches that "the Holy Spirit" is a separate Divine Being, the Third Person also called God.

What you're doing is simply re-stating the premise of the Trinity Creed.

In a normal debate (religion, politics, education, etc.), the audience and the opponent will deride the debater who simply announces the premise (e.g., "the Holy Spirit is the Third Person in the Trinity Creed"). Why not present real evidence or proof that is difficult to dismantle?

Of course, no one here at CM (nor any Christian/believer worldwide) denies "the Father and the Son." Mathematically, that's "one plus one = two." That's the scriptural count regarding "the Godhead" detailed in Colossians 2. In Christ "dwells the FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD." STOP, Bill, please try to let that absorb for a while. Jesus Christ is the begotten Son of God the Father. You would not want to make that into a human familial situation by adding a separate Divine Being to produce "a son." In your case and of the Trinitarian ... by adding "the Holy Spirit" Third Person.

The Roman Catholic Church has already attempted that, in addition to another attempt by the RCC to add a third "divine" being called "Mary, the Mother of God."

Even in the 3 passages that mention the word "antichrist," the "FULNESS" does not include God's holy Spirit, important as ITS [the Spirit's] role is. When you add another "Divine Being" in the equation, mathematically, the "formula" changes to "one + one + one = three." The Scripture teaches neither "two minus one = one" nor "1 + 1 + 1 = 3" in "the FULNESS of the Godhead."

"The Godhead" is sufficiently explained in Colossians 2. It's "1 + 1 = 2" to represent "the Father and the Son." The Trinity Creed and its followers choose to change the scriptural formula by adding one more.

That's why we don't mess with the scriptural formula regarding "the Godhead."

Based on your constant re-statement of the Trinity Creed, you're not expected to understand or even try to understand I John 2:22 -- "He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

When you do a "PLUS ONE MORE--the Holy Spirit," you are changing the truth regarding "the Father and the Son." Now, that is antichrist.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.247.103

Re: The "Godhead"

August 31 2013, 10:12 PM 

The three R's of topics that have been beaten to death: Recycle, Recycle, Recycle...


========================

That may be the best argument you've ever presented -- lacking in depth.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Aug 31, 2013 10:32 PM


 
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ken sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.3.164

Re: The "Godhead"

August 31 2013, 11:39 PM 

I believe that it was little Johnny Wesley's mom who was aksed? Why do you tell Johnny something 20 times? Mom responded: "Because Johnny did not understand when I told him 19 times."

The Church of Christ in the wilderness and the entire Bible assembly had two functions.

To Speak or read the same things from the Word (only)
And REHEARSE it. So, the Purpose Driven Pattern is to REHEARSE over and over and over so get over it.

Singing and making melody IN the heart is rehearsing or meditating without which no one learns anything.

It is 'dealer's choice' about what needs to be recycled, recycled, recycled and the readers choice to understand the quoted Biblical and historical FACTS or keep on whining. Since I provide a link, I am speaking to a specific question or some new instrumental attack taking place. If the attack is on MUSIC then old Ken is smart enough to do a quick study of MUSIC. Don't bother to understand that sentence.

As long as the ONLY real issues being RECYCLED in all of the workshops and papers is about the SPIRIT who told me to lie about instruments or using all of the RACA words against those who SOW DISCORD by refusing to bow down when they pipe.

My look at Stark Warlick which was the lick that proved that non-instrumental churches cannot do business with instrumentalists had Stark saying something like this:

Billy Bob Butthead has fallen in love with Joe's wife. He says that he is going to move into Joe's bedroom and the wife agrees.

So, Joe says that he is moving out and taking his paycheck with him.

Billy Bob holds meetings and writes letters to everyone in the county saying that Joe is SOWING DISCORD and breaking up his family. And about a hundred bloggers tell everyone that Joe is a legalistic, sectarian, hypocrite sorehead patternist for breaking up his family.


My wife and I listened to a bit of news and she also decided that the Massed Multitudes are OF the World and honest logic no longer exists. To wit, a recent election and "first we gonna pass the bill then we gonna read it." The Mayans were correct: the moral and logical poles have reversed.



 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.62.99

Re: The "Godhead"

August 31 2013, 11:52 PM 

You've done quite a bit of recycling yourself, Donnie. In fact, that's ALL you've done lately, and in multiple threads to boot, so don't you ever complain and moan again about recycling until you can find a completely NEW topic to discuss.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.12.231

Lacking in Depth

September 1 2013, 12:31 AM 

It is apparent that Donnie applies the phrase "lacking in depth" to those fully biblical arguments that he fully rejects.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Lacking in Depth

September 1 2013, 1:23 AM 

No, "lacking in depth" was in reference to your rebuttal: "The three R's of topics that have been beaten to death: Recycle, Recycle, Recycle..."

When the Scripture presents expressions such as "the Spirit ITSELF," and one makes a fully biblical argument that God's holy Spirit is masculine, then, I'll be the first one to fully accept it. By the way, Bill, I'm referring to:

(1) "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit..." [Romans 8:16]
(2) "... but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us..." (Romans 8:26)
(3) There are other passages.

You might as well notice the comparison in Romans 8:16 between:

(a) the spirit of God
--------------- and ------------
(b) the spirit of man

... and neither one is masculine.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.209.22

Re: Lacking in Depth

September 1 2013, 9:34 AM 

Let Donnie endlessly recycle "the spirit OF..." and let Bill endlessly recycle passages that, to the discerning and the open-minded, show the Holy Spirit to be a distinct, non-person entity who is neither God nor Jesus. With these two biblical arguments being endlessly recycled from two different perspectives, perhaps readers will understand that there is more than one biblical way to perceive the Holy Spirit. Let NO MAN be arrogant enough to assert that his personal perception is the one-and-only correct perception and that all other perceptions will jeopardize one's soul.


========================

Bill,

You really have a problem giving direct answers to direct questions. We don't speed-read the Holy Scripture; we study and meditate. I Tim. 4:13-15 says -- "Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.... Meditate upon these things."

In case you had one of those "senior moments" [ sad.gif ], here's what I brought up in the post just above your non-responsive response:


========================================
When the Scripture presents expressions such as "the Spirit ITSELF," and one makes a fully biblical argument that God's holy Spirit is masculine, then, I'll be the first one to fully accept it. By the way, Bill, I'm referring to:

(1) "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit..." [Romans 8:16]
(2) "... but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us..." (Romans 8:26)
(3) There are other passages.

You might as well notice the comparison in Romans 8:16 between:

(a) the spirit of God
--------------- and ------------
(b) the spirit of man

... and neither one is masculine.

========================================


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Sep 1, 2013 3:47 PM


 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.15.251

Re: Lacking in Depth

September 1 2013, 4:27 PM 

No, Donnie, you have a problem accepting the answers that are given to you, but are not the answers you want or expect to hear.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Lacking in Depth

September 1 2013, 5:13 PM 

No, Bill, the problem is when you're convinced that your assumption is the scriptural answer.

Here's a concrete example [please listen very, very carefully]:

You quoted Romans 8:26 as one of your "scriptural" evidences to prove "that the Spirit" is a separate Divine Being [implied masculine gender]" and, therefore, validates the Trinity claim that "HE" is a member of the Trinity Club.

But then you COMPLETELY IGNORE the rest of the same verse where it states: "the Spirit ITSELF...."

You, Bill, the grammar expert, should be the first one to see and acknowledge and explain that the word "itself" is NOT MASCULINE, and, therefore, disqualifies an "IT" [neuter] to be a Trinity member.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.15.251

Re: Lacking in Depth

September 1 2013, 5:15 PM 

Donnie, to recap, your perception of the Holy Spirit is "the spirit OF...," which is biblical and which no one denies here. Yet being narrow-minded, you reject other biblical passages that, to the discerning, ALSO show the Holy Spirit to be a distinct, non-person entity (don't worry about personal pronouns) who is neither God nor Jesus. Now surely you are not asserting that your particular perception of the Holy Spirit is the one-and-only correct perception. Surely you are not arrogant and brazen enough to assert that if people have a different perception of the Holy Spirit than you do, then their souls are in grave jeopardy.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.15.251

Re: Lacking in Depth

September 1 2013, 5:37 PM 

The discerning realize the biblical passages we've cited earlier clearly show that the Holy Spirit is a distinct, non-person entity who is neither God nor Jesus. Donnie, your problem is that stubbornness, narrow-mindedness, and arrogance have closed your eyes to the fact that there is more than one biblically correct way to perceive the Holy Spirit.

Without a doubt, you'll keep promoting "the spirit OF...," but you'll just be promoting only HALF of the ways that people can perceive the Holy Spirit.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Lacking in Depth

September 1 2013, 5:49 PM 

No, no, no!!!

Bill, again, please explain "the Spirit ITSELF."

Is that masculine or is it neuter?


=================

Please STOP this "stubbornness" or "narrow-mindedness" bit. That's not an argument. We do not need a psychologist here.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Lacking in Depth

September 1 2013, 6:00 PM 

Really?

Why do you think YOUR PERCEPTION is being published here?

Two differing or opposite arguments can both be wrong; they can not both be right.

 
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Anonymous
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: The "Godhead"

September 1 2013, 1:37 AM 

Bill, I'm not making a "recycling" COMPLAINT as my rebuttal.

I constantly present biblical references. The 70+ OT and NT passages regarding "the Spirit OF the living God"; the 20 salutations involving "the Father and the Son" without the inclusion of the Trinity Creed's "Holy Spirit"; "the Godhead" clearly and explicitly explained in Colossians Chapter 2 -- all should be worthy of our serious Bible study.

Recycling biblical knowledge is not a bad thing.

 
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William Hall
(no login)
108.18.190.68

How did Godhead get here?

September 1 2013, 4:34 AM 


As long as you use the term "the Godhead", capitalized no less, there will be trinitarian confusion. There is no "Godhead" described in Colossians 2. That word has nothing to do with any ordered arrangement in heaven, and it is strictly archaic. It is rare indeed to ask someone to define godhead and have them respond "the substantial essence or nature of the Christian God (Wikipedia)." You would do us all a favor, and help your own arguments, by getting this word out of your vocabulary. All the attributes of God indwelled in Jesus, even when he was a man. Yes, we can now discuss "indwelled", but there is no "the Godhead."

 
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