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Bill
(no login)
74.179.243.49

Re: How did Godhead get here?

September 1 2013, 11:28 AM 

I gather this means the phrase "the spirit OF the Godhead" no longer applies (or never did in the first place).

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: How did Godhead get here?

September 1 2013, 4:11 PM 

Equating "the Godhead" in Colossians 2 to the man-made "Trinity" does not compute.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.3.164

Re: How did Godhead get here?

September 1 2013, 12:00 PM 

Well Said:

Colossians 2:9 For in him all the fullness of deity LIVES in bodily form,

theotes , tos, h, A. divinity, divine nature, Ep.Col.2.9,

Godhead: (Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:20; Col. 2:9), the essential being or the nature of God.

Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being;
.....as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God,
.....we ought not to think that the Godhead is
.....like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and mans device.


WE are made in the image of God: WE are not TRIPLETS.
Jesus was made in the image of God: Jesus was not Triplets
It was GOD'S choice to shine forth into Jesus: Jesus was not triplets.
God empowered the MAN Jesus of Nazareth to be the visible-audible NATURE of the ONE God

John Mark Hicks says that the FAMILY is three persons (people) each with their own center of consciousness. When you make a trinity of God, Jesus and their spirit you have made a GRAVEN IMAGE making it impossible to see the God of the Universe as anything more than a man. This is ignorance and Paul said:

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at;
.....but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Acts 17:31 Because HE hath appointed a day,
.....in the which he will judge the world in righteousness
.....by that MAN whom he hath ORDAINED;
.....whereof he hath given assurance unto all men,
.....in that he hath raised him from the dead.


The clear--maybe hidden in plain sight--text says that Jesus was a MAN and God ordained THAT MAN to be Lord and Christ over His kingdom. Jesus was made to be the visible-audible WORD of God. God creates all things by His WORD which means REGULATIVE PRINCIPLE and the opposite of poetry or music. God does not create anything by music. The Word WAS God but in these last days He speaks through His Son. The Spirit that filled Jesus was the same Spirit OF Christ which filled the Prophets: that is why a Church of Christ is built upon or educated by the Prophets and Apostles. You cannot build or Educate with musical performers. No one was ever so ignorant that they did not know that they could be taken captive by sounds of wind, string and percussion instruments as in VOODOO, Rock and Roll and CCM.

We REPEAT, REPEAT:

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
.....that God [Theos]
.....hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified,
.....both Lord [Kurios] and Christ.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is ONE God [Theos],
.....and one mediator between God and men,
.....the MAN Christ Jesus;


So Jesus was not ONE THIRD OF A FAMILY. The Breath [Ruwach] of God like the Wisdom [Sophia] of God is NOT a people. I have known of people's tobacco BREATH could walk on four legs.

The fulness of their ANTICHRISTHOOD is proven when they deny:

The ONE God (Theos) and the ONE Lord (Kurios) with no mediator between other than the breath. ANTICHRIST is denying that God made Jesus of Nazareth to die for us and INSTRUCT us with everything we need for life and godliness.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.210.3.164 on Sep 1, 2013 12:02 PM


 
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Scripture
(no login)
98.87.120.207

Godhood from a "What We Believe"

September 1 2013, 2:49 PM 

Here is a Franklin, Tennessee, church (of Christ) "What We Believe" creed as expressed on the Internet

------------------------------------
WHAT WE BELIEVE, TEACH, AND PRACTICE

There is one God, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit dwelling in and empowering Gods people.

The Bible is the inspired and complete word of God, a proven guide to our personal lives.

The Bible teaches us about God, sin, and Jesus, our Savior.

The Bible teaches us about His church, how to become a member, and how to live and serve in its fellowship.

The Bible teaches us about the blessings of living the Godly life, about our heavenly reward and how to secure it.
--------------------------------------

Maybe this is a practice in obfuscation. It didn't say anything about Christ dwelling in us, nor of God dwelling in us.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.15.251

Re: Godhood from a "What We Believe"

September 1 2013, 6:11 PM 

"There is one God, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit dwelling in and empowering Gods [sic] people."

First, this statement from the "creed" implies that there are three distinct, non-person entities in heaven: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We've cited Bible passages that show the Holy Spirit is one of those distinct entities. Of course, the narrow-minded cry "Foul!" and quickly reject those passages. Apparently it is not impossible for churches of Christ to embrace the so-called "Trinity," no matter how often this site bashes that term.

Second, the statement can be interpreted to mean that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit ALL dwell in and empower us. I don't think the statement limits the indwelling only to the Holy Spirit. The statement would have taken on a whole different meaning if it had read, "There is one God and His Son Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit dwells in and empowers God's people."


=========================

"There is one God, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit dwelling in and empowering Gods [sic] people."

Regarding the "[sic]": This is not the poster's error. The original source should show the apostrophe. It is a copy-and-paste issue. It is best to "preview" first before submitting a post that contains an apostrophe to ensure that the apostrophe [or the double quotation mark or some other special character] does not disappear.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Sep 1, 2013 6:52 PM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Godhood from a "What We Believe"

September 1 2013, 7:38 PM 

Bill,

You should be aware by now that even your "perception" or "interpretation" or "implication" is published here.

So far as I'm aware of, you have not presented a single evidence from SCRIPTURE that unequivocally identifies the "Trinity's Holy Spirit" as a Divine Being also called "God."

NONE.

You even refuse to discuss the contents of Romans 8:26, one passage that you believe proves your theory.

Why don't you clarify for us the passage [Romans 8:26] that you consider "proof" of the Trinity's Holy Spirit? It states:

"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit ITSELF maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

Do you understand the question? Do you understand the expression "the Spirit ITSELF"?

 
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A-Won
(no login)
108.230.197.238

Re: Godhood from a "What We Believe"

September 1 2013, 7:46 PM 

Scripture, I am just curious, how would you rewrite the Heritage Church "What We Believe" article to make it less confusing?

 
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Scripture
(no login)
98.87.120.207

Further comment on HCOC "What We Believe"

September 2 2013, 4:37 PM 

--------------------------------------------
WHAT WE BELIEVE, TEACH, AND PRACTICE

There is one God, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit dwelling in and empowering Gods people.

The Bible is the inspired and complete word of God, a proven guide to our personal lives.

The Bible teaches us about God, sin, and Jesus, our Savior.

The Bible teaches us about His church, how to become a member, and how to live and serve in its fellowship.

The Bible teaches us about the blessings of living the Godly life, about our heavenly reward and how to secure it.
--------------------------------------

The "What We Believe" tells a lot about the HCOC.

It is interesting that HS indwelling is mentioned BEFORE endorsing the complete Word of God. Nothing is said about the Holy Spirit's activity in providing us with the Word of God, even before we had faith or were baptized.

The site does endorse church membership, which is contrary to Rick Warren's doctrine that SALVATION IS CHURCH-LESS. The site does say that we need to learn to live in the Church, meaning that we get many blessings from church membership, which of course, we can endorse as well.

The site does step back from announcing how to become a member of the church, but notice THERE IS NO STATEMENT ABOUT HOW WE CONVERT.

The "What We Believe" statement is all about what the "Bible teaches" with no specifics, so I would assume that this church professes to believe the Bible, but doesn't tell us much about what the Bible teaches.

The statement is generally very generic, with a seeming endorsement, at least of a mild Trinitarian flavor, but it may be less than forthright or complete about the HS. It tells us that church membership is highly desirable, but shuns application of salvation to the individual, more or less.

I would rank it, a C-, so I think it should be rewritten. Better maybe, to take these statements out of their site completely.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Godhood from a "What We Believe"

September 2 2013, 1:31 AM 

The Heritage congregation in Franklin, TN, based on its website, appears to be on the mainline/conservative side -- based on its "mission" statement, a narrative or summary of its beliefs. (But when a congregation prefers the term "shepherds" to "elders"; when the "praise team" joins the "worship leader" to co-lead; etc. -- I begin to suspect that some "transition" or "transformation" may be taking place in that congregation.)

It's really not uncommon to include "the Holy Spirit" in the discussion of the Deity among churches of Christ. Some congregations are bold enough to mention the word "Trinity" on the website.

I believe the consensus among churches of Christ is that the Holy Spirit does not directly influence the believer [direct in the manner that "the Spirit spoke to me"], but rather operates through God's Word. This may be shifting now that the Charismatic Movement, just as well as the Community Church Movement, has affected/infected even churches of Christ.

The believer being "indwelt" is somewhat a confusing issue in the church.

I believe that these are similar expressions with the same meaning:

-- "the Spirit OF God..." (I Cor. 3:16; Rom. 8:11);
-- "the word of Christ..." (Col. 3:16);
-- "Christ, the Spirit of truth, ..." (Eph. 3:17);
-- "God (who is a Spirit, John 4:24)..." (I John 4:12)

"... dwells in" the believer. The indwelling is "spiritual" in nature. God's spirit is in communication with man's spirit -- nothing "physical" or "literal" is involved in the process.

What's significant here is that man (comprised of his body, soul and spirit} has a "spirit" entity; that God also has a "spirit" entity manifested in various ways throughout biblical dispensations.

When one is buried with Christ in baptism, not only that his sins are forgiven, but also that his SPIRIT is made HOLY [purified, conscience-cleared, refreshed] (Acts 2:38; 3:19). Gal. 5:25 says -- "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." It is impossible to walk with God physically. Simply, the believer's spirit communicates with God's holy Spirit.

Let's not forget that the resurrected Christ (while He was "the truth" and "the physical Comforter" when living with His disciples) is now the ["another," spiritual] Comforter promised in John 14,16 -- as well as "the Spirit of truth" (John 14:6; John 14;17; John 15:26; John 16:13; I John 4:6).

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.243.49

Re: How did Godhead get here?

September 1 2013, 12:36 PM 

Actually, the term "Godhead" DOES appear in Col. 2:9 in the KJV: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." So-called "modern" translations replace "Godhead" with "Deity/deity" or "God." While that verse refers to Christ as being part of the "Godhead," the term "Godhead" itself would include the three distinct, non-person entities of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit [oops! smacks of "Trinity" for those of that controversial persuasion]. The phrase "the spirit OF..." does not appear in Col. 2:9, so there should be no confusion about the Holy Spirit's ordered arrangement in heaven.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: How did Godhead get here?

September 1 2013, 5:41 PM 

Bill,

You're NOT paying attention to details in the discussion.

Colossians 2 is not speaking of the papal Trinity Creed. There is no mention of the Trinity's "Holy Spirit" in that chapter. Do not add a Third Person to "the Godhead." No one is authorized to do that -- not even the Pope and the Roman Emperor. happy.gif

Besides, you still do not understand what the preposition "OF" means ... which is probably the reason why you refuse to explain "of" grammatically.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.3.164

Re: How did Godhead get here?

September 1 2013, 6:50 PM 

Didn't Bill boast that he never reads the DETAILS? He thinks that upsets or irritates people. He should read his own details?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: How did Godhead get here?

September 1 2013, 7:12 PM 

Let's give Bill some credit. Even if it took him weeks and months [in as much as we've brought up Colossians for weeks and months], it appears that he finally woke up to search the Scripture and discover that "the godhead" is mentioned in Chapter 2.

One problem remains, though, that he still keeps interjecting the Trinity notion that "God's holy Spirit" (Eph. 4:30), when mentioned all "ALONE," is the Trinity's 3rd Person or Divine Being.

That's equivalent to concluding that "the spirit [of man]" [actually "the unholy spirit of man"] becomes a human being when mentioned all alone.

I think he reads his own details containing "stubbornness," "narrow-mindedness," "recycling," "perception," "not a salvation issue," "it does not matter," etc.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.248.159

Re: How did Godhead get here?

September 1 2013, 8:16 PM 

I pay attention to the fact that Donnie is STILL recycling his argument about fixatiing ONLY on the preposition "OF." What Donnie does NOT pay attention to are the OTHER Bible verses that show the Holy Spirit is a distinct, non-person entity who is neither God nor Jesus. Of course, we know that there is more than one biblical perception of the Holy Spirit, even if Donnie is in complete denial of that; "the spirit OF..." is just ONE of those perceptions. Donnie stubbornly latches on to that one, closes his eyes in narrow-mindedness, and arrogantly says in effect: "This is the one-and-only correct perception! All other perceptions are SINFUL!" I wouldn't be surprised if Donnie thought that people with different perceptions were all hell-bound.




==========================
Bill's statement:

Of course, we know that there is more than one biblical perception of the Holy Spirit, even if Donnie is in complete denial of that; "the spirit OF..." is just ONE of those perceptions. Donnie stubbornly latches on to that one, closes his eyes in narrow-mindedness, and arrogantly says in effect: "This is the one-and-only correct perception! All other perceptions are SINFUL!" I wouldn't be surprised if Donnie thought that people with different perceptions were all hell-bound.


Bill, where did the above statements about "perceptions" come from? You must have made that up. You know better than to "tell" stories like that. There's a children's song with these words: "Oh Be care little mouth what you say [about "sinful" or "hell-bound"]."

You will not hear me say either word. Why can't we leave all that to the Righteous Judge?

Evidently, even as a grammar expert, you do not understand the significance of the preposition "of." I believe a third grader can understand that and explain it to you.

Evidently, you don't know what "the holy Spirit of God" means.

Evidently, you do not identify "the holy Spirit of God" as a.k.a. "the Holy Spirit" [in caps for your sake].

Evidently, you can't reconcile "the Spirit ITSELF" and the Trinity's "Holy Spirit."

Now, Bill, I've heard of a quote about teaching "an old dog new tricks."

Bill, we've heard so much of the same whiny messages in your post as this one. I don't think that publishing another one like it is beneficial; let's not waste precious time and effort.

One more thing -- let's not confuse "perceptions" with the "truth."


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Sep 1, 2013 10:44 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.3.164

Re: How did Godhead get here?

September 1 2013, 5:58 PM 

They mean that they think that A Holy Spirit person (people) lives inside of them and somehow guides them. However, this is unaware that of the "another Comforter" Jesus said I will come to you. The Man Jesus made to be the visible-audible WORD (Logos) would after His glorification and changed into a "spiritual" form returned on the Day of Pentecost and "poured out what you see and hear." Jesus would not leave them comfortless (orphans) but would return to them. In 1 John 2 John says that the Comforter (Paraklete) would bear the name Jesus Christ the Righteous."

I believe that when John spoke of anti-Christ he was speaking of those who diminished the finished work of Christ and think that their carnal (and unlearned) body is a habitation of God in the FLESH as opposed to in the spirit or mind. That is the view which originated at David Lipscomb and the Gospel Advocate by H. Leo Boles. When I returned to my "little dead church in the high woods" they were still using the same Gospel Advocate study books and got quite upset when I quoted some Scripture. That is still the FOUNDATION if you want to be a LU teacher.

1Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks,
.....Christ the power of God,
.....and [Christ] the wisdom of God.

2Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me,
.....My grace is sufficient for thee:
.....for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
.....Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities,
.....that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding,
..... shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,
.....Now is come salvation, and strength,
.....and the kingdom of our God,
.....and the power of his Christ:
.....for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


Paul makes it certain that when the Spirit gives power, it is the Spirit OF God.

Romans 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit OF God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Jesus of Nazareth appeared to Paul to let him see and hear His voice to qualify him as an apostle. Jesus promised that He would guide them just as He guided the Apostles into what HE had taught. The Spirit OF Christ prevented Paul from entering Bithynia.

>Acts 16:7 and when they were come over against Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia; and the Spirit of Jesus suffered them not;


 
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William Hall
(no login)
108.18.180.138

No, Bill, it does not

September 2 2013, 3:04 AM 


We find the Godhead mentioned in Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, and Colossians 2:9, and the term represents a different Greek word each time. It is not so much a bad translation as it is a meaningless translation for todays readers, and it has been more or less a meaningless word since the early Twentieth Century when the suffix head went out of style. The term that is most often used to illustrate the meaning of Godhead is maidenhead, rarely used now, to describe a virginal young woman, and most often only used to refer to her first intercourse when she loses her maidenhead. The suffix head is used to impute the qualities of a condition. So in Jacobean English, Godhead was used to describe the quality of being God or divine or deity. Consequently, only translations of the KJV and older, going back at least as far as Tyndale, and only modern translations that are explicit derivatives of the KJV use the term. It never, ever, had anything to do with any ordering or relationships of beings in heaven. Col. 2:9 states that all the attributes of God, or "all the fullness of deity", indwelled (one interlinear uses down-homed) in Jesus.

As has been pointed out previously in several posts, prepositions and pronouns were added by the translators to make good English sense. Consequently, Col. 2:9 is more or less literally That in Him is down-homing every the filling of the deity bodily. Try to make a good English sentence out of that and you see what the translators were up against. Now stick Godhead in there, and mix it with what most people think Godhead means, and you see how this thread can go on forever.

No, Bill, Godhead does not "include", but rather describes.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.210.5

I Believe It Does

September 2 2013, 4:58 PM 

Since the Godhead "describes" Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then the Godhead "includes" the Holy Spirit. It's really a matter of perception and interpretation. Yes, this thread can go on forever, because some folks will flatly deny what I've just stated, based on their different perception and interpretation of what the "Godhead" is. Does that mean I am wrong or they are wrong? Absolutely NOT.

Would you like to substitute "Trinity" for "Godhead"?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: I Believe It Does

September 2 2013, 6:13 PM 

William said:
No, Bill, Godhead does not "include", but rather describes.


Bill, what's happening to your intellisense?

Why are you including [adding] "the Holy Spirit"? You do not find that in Colossians Chapter 2. So, don't make up something on your own volition. You know better.


 
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William
(no login)
108.18.189.127

Absolutely do not substitute trinity for godhead

September 5 2013, 1:11 AM 



I am not sure why you asked if I would like to substitute trinity for godhead, when there is no connection at all. Once again, godhead in Jacobean English was used to describe the attributes of being God. Jesus was described as having those attributes bodily, which means while he was alive on earth as a man he still had all the attributes of his father. I am not aware of any time when the HS was described in quite the same way. There is never a time when any passage supports any inclusion of Father, Son, Holy Spirit "in the Godhead."

But this is not to demean the qualities of the Son, of whom Paul unequivocally states that he had all the qualities of the deity, and the Holy Spirit, who is alive and with us now. But it seems to me that we have completely misappropriated the word.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: How did Godhead get here?

September 1 2013, 4:52 PM 

GREAT statement from William Hall: "As long as you use the term "the Godhead", capitalized no less, there will be trinitarian confusion."

The Trinitarian confusion arises when Trinitarians equate their man-invented creed "the Trinity" to "the Godhead."

Colossians 2:9 simply says: "For in him [the Lord Jesus Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." The preceding verse 2 speaks of "the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ."

We should respect the apostle Paul for intentionally NOT mentioning the Trinity's 3rd Person Holy Spirit in his statement concerning "the mystery of God" (Col. 2:2), as well as in his series of salutations in his epistles to churches and individuals. The other epistles also mention "the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" in the salutation.

Better yet is to state that: "There is no 'Trinity' described in Colossians 2."

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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