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Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 4 2013 at 2:18 AM
Donnie Cruz  (Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
from IP address 99.177.250.192

There are almost a hundred references to "the spirit OF..." throughout the Bible. Here's the list from another thread:

  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord (26 references in O.T.; Luke 4:18; Acts 5:9; 8:39; II Cor. 3:17,18)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF God (14 references in O.T.; 12 references in N.T.)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF our God (I Cor. 6:11)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the living God (II Cor. 3:3)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Christ (Rom. 8:9; I Peter 1:11)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him (Rom. 8:11)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord God (Isa. 61:1)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF His Son (Gal. 4:6)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the holy Spirit OF God (Eph. 4:30)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Father (Matt. 10:20)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS Spirit that dwelleth in you (Rom. 8:11; I Cor. 2:10; I John 4:13)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS holy Spirit (Isa. 63:10,11; I Thess. 4:8)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him that raised up Jesus (Rom. 8:11)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit which is OF God (I Cor. 2:12)


The above references clearly indicate to me, as one theologian says, that the Holy Spirit is "not an independent entity alongside God, but the evidence of God's active presence in the world." We've dealt very extensively with the significance of the preposition "OF" to indicate ownership or belongingness or possession.

  • There was no debate in O.T. times about the Trinity. Period.
  • There was no debate among the 1st century Christians about the Trinity -- but since the Trinity Creed was invented, there has been more debate.
  • Jews don't capitalize "holy spirit" or "spirit" -- it does not refer to a person.
  • The Hebrew and Greek languages did not have upper and lower case when the earliest biblical manuscripts were written.
  • Capitalization is merely interpretation of Trinity-influenced translators.
  • Pronoun gender (he or it) in Greek is irrelevant -- strictly a "theological" decision.
  • The New Testament NEVER identifies "the Holy Spirit" as God.
  • The Spirit of God is to God what the spirit of man is to man.
  • "'Spirit of God' in Judaism denoted the power of God."


The New Testament speaks of the GODHEAD (not Trinity) in the following manner (cf. Colossians 2:1-9):

  • [2] That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
  • [3] In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
  • [6] As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
  • [7] Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
  • [8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
  • [9] For in him [the Lord Jesus Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of THE GODHEAD bodily.


Now, Paul's and other writers' salutations in the following epistles:

  • ROMANS------------:
    Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:7)
  • I CORINTHIANS-----:
    Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:3)
  • II CORINTHIANS----:
    Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort, (1:2,3)
  • GALATIANS---------:
    Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) ... unto the churches of Galatia: Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, (1:1-3)
  • EPHESIANS---------:
    Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:2)
  • PHILIPPIANS-------:
    Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:2)
  • COLOSSIANS--------:
    Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1:2,3)
  • I THESSALONIANS---:
    Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:1)
  • II THESSALONIANS--:
    Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:2)
  • I TIMOTHY---------:
    Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. (1:2)
  • II TIMOTHY--------:
    To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. (1:2)
  • TITUS-------------:
    To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. (1:4)
  • PHILEMON----------:
    Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:3)
  • HEBREWS-----------:
    For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? (1:5)
  • JAMES-------------:
    James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. (1:1)
  • I PETER-----------:
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1:3)
  • II PETER----------:
    Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, (1:2)
  • I JOHN------------:
    ... and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (1:3)
  • II JOHN-----------:
    Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. (1:3)
  • JUDE--------------:
    Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: (1:1)


Paul and the other apostles/writers do not mention "the Holy Spirit." This absence suggests that Paul and the others did not regard the Holy Spirit as a person.

 
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Bill
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74.240.239.49

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 4 2013, 8:24 AM 

As I recall, these same arguments (or variations thereof) were exhaustively covered in the thread "The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit." There, as here, the preposition "OF" was the centerpiece to indicate that the Holy Spirit was not a separate "person." I'm wondering why there's a necessity to create "new" threads that just keep duplicating topics with slight variations. In another thread, I believe another poster made a similar observation earlier.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
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Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 4 2013, 6:30 PM 

Bill,

Your recollection is noteworthy. But let's give others credit also -- I think I recall as well as you do.

  1. Yes, I brought up "the Spirit of" again because of the significance of the preposition "of" in the expression. I have asked you, as a grammar expert, to help explain that part of speech to clearly show us the relationship between: (1) the part and (2) the whole. (For example: "Donnie is a person; the nose of Donnie is not a person.") Instead, you've ignored it. Now, as usual, you're complaining about it??????

  2. The second section of this thread deals with other grammatical issues: pronouns, capitalization, as well as an excellent analogy:

    "The Spirit of God is to God
    -------------- what --------------------
    the spirit of man is to man."


  3. The third section shows the contrast between:

    The scriptural Godhead
    ---------------- vs. -----------------
    The invented Trinity


  4. I listed 20 New Testament books where each of the personal salutations of Paul and the other apostles/writers included: (1) God the Father and (2) the Lord Jesus Christ. The Trinity's third PERSON "the Holy Spirit" is evidently absent.


Bill, you've not addressed any of the 4 assertions. We're waiting to learn from you.

 
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Bill
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74.179.211.104

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 4 2013, 8:46 PM 

Donnie, you posted all this (and more) earlier in the "Holy Spirit" thread. You keep dredging up the same topics in "new" threads. There's no need for that. Stick with one thread per original topic and run with it. Save your cyberspace for truly NEW topics. BTW, if you felt you didn't get a satisfactory response in the earlier thread, then there's certainly no reason for you to believe you're going to get any "different" response here.


=========================
Bill,

Thanks a lot for the suggestion -- one thread, right? The problem, however, is that your response, which is totally unnecessary and whiny and is not conducive to learning, is the same every time.

But no, thanks, Bill. These threads are not designed specifically for you. They're designed for serious Bible students eager to know and learn about doctrinal differences.

In the initial post, I presented the 20 New Testament books that contained salutations that CONSISTENTLY did not include the Trinity's Third Person, "The Holy Spirit." It was always: (1) God the Father and (2) the Lord Jesus Christ.

Uh-oh, the references did not impact your preconditioned thinking.

Sorry, but this thread will continue without any further interruption.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Aug 5, 2013 11:01 AM


 
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Bill
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74.179.210.229

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 5 2013, 12:43 PM 

[. . .]

========================

Please initiate a thread that will discuss your concerns, complaints or suggestions. It's been a while since you started a new thread. It may not be about a particular doctrine, but it will be published.

Now ... I believe that will relieve you of having to address the issue of why Paul and others did not include the Trinity's Third Person "Holy Spirit" in his PERSONAL salutations to Christian churches and individuals. The greetings always included: (1) God the Father and (2) the Lord Jesus Christ.

I do not recall this matter (Paul's salutations to churches and individuals devoid of the Trinity concept) being brought up before. This is new stuff, Bill.





    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Aug 5, 2013 4:24 PM


 
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Bill
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74.179.246.216

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 8 2013, 3:10 PM 


[ . . . ]


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Aug 8, 2013 11:23 PM


 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 8 2013, 11:28 PM 

Bill,

It appears that you have just now noticed Paul's "salutations that omit the Holy Spirit" [your words]. Did you "speed-read" or skip those 20 passages earlier?

Yet I did not see a single argument from you ... for or against.

Would you like to initiate a thread concerning your guide to: "How to Avoid Duplication of 'New-But-Really-Not_New' Threads"? Let's not disappoint those who might be interested to know about your 132-word guide. By the way, I saved a copy of your post. Let me know if you need a copy.


 
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Ken Sublett
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70.210.2.56

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 4 2013, 12:00 PM 

Short enough summary that there is no excuse for people thinking they have a post-Christ "spirit" person telling them to sow discord.

The terrorizing problem is that since preaching "sees godliness as a means of financial gain" and "corrupting the Word" meaning "selling learning at retail" which also means "adultery" you can get ready with a stack of sermon outlines without engaging THEIR spirit.

That means that their HERMENEUTIC (John Mark Hicks says I don't understand) is to NEVER read or preach whole thought patterns. All sermons and papers you can find just collect passages with "spirit" in them.

1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,
.....even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
.....He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not
.....that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:

Once the eye-- and ear-- witness accounts of the Apostles were delivered, showing the Prophets made certain by Jesus the Christ, anyone who violated the direct command to PREACH the Word (only) by READING the Word for Comfort (the Paraklete's instrumental means) and Doctrine, is by definition an ANTI-Christ believing that THEIR songs and sermons are Post-Jesus and therefore superior. Why else would they strip sermons of everything but their opinions of what Jesus said?

Jesus was MADE TO BE the Messiah: Messiah was NOT supernatural military leader.
The early Gnostics said that Jesus would not be a mortal man: That denies God's power to rule through a man to defeat Satan.
Messiah was to be of the SEED of Abraham: faithful Jews waited for Shiloh to come.
God MADE JESUS TO BE both Lord and Christ:

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
.....that God hath made
.....that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified,
.....both Lord and Christ.


Especially the LU neo-trinity says that Jesus WAS a second member of the "god family." That is why they lust to become "Families OF God" in the post-Shelly era. And the Spirit (mind, mental disposition) OF Christ is a SEPARATED Holy Spirit "people." So to CONFIRM the branding of ANTICHRIST.

2John 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world,
.....who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
.....This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
.....and this is that spirit OF antichrist,
.....whereof ye have heard that it should come;
.....and even now already is it in the world.

So, is the spirit OF Antichrist another "people"?




    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.210.2.56 on Aug 4, 2013 12:02 PM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Testing Your Knowledge of "the Spirit" As a Person

August 5 2013, 12:11 PM 

The Trinity Creed identifies the Third Person, the Holy Spirit, as God. It follows then that "the spirit OF Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:9) is a separate PERSON.

On that basis, the Trinity doctrine rejects manifestations of God's holy spirit at various times as: breath, wind, force, power or mind. So, its followers insist that the "spirit" is a "person."

Test your knowledge of the "spirit" as a person:

__________ Is the spirit of the Father a person? (Matt. 10:20)
__________ Is the spirit of Jesus Christ a person? (Phil. 1:19)
__________ Is the spirit of antichrist a person? (I John 4:3)
__________ Is the spirit of Jacob in Gen. 45:27 a person?
__________ Is the spirit of Pul king of Assyria in I Chron. 5:26 a person?
__________ Is the spirit of the Philistines in II Chron. 21:16 a person?

 
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Bill
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74.179.210.229

Re: Testing Your Knowledge of "the Spirit" As a Person

August 5 2013, 12:48 PM 


[. . .]
[. . .]
[. . .]
[. . .]
[. . .]

=================

Ready to publish when a substantive discussion resumes.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Aug 5, 2013 3:35 PM


 
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Bill
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74.179.13.137

Re: Testing Your Knowledge of "the Spirit" As a Person

August 9 2013, 10:39 AM 


By "substantive discussion," Donnie means [... ... ...]



================
Bill, your response once again is far from being substantive and conducive to learning. I think we have created a number of threads that serve as a venting mechanism for those who have difficulty focusing on specific issues and matters at hand.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Aug 9, 2013 8:54 PM


 
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Dave
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64.234.85.61

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 8 2013, 11:47 AM 

"Ready to publish when a substantive discussion resumes.


That is assuming that there was a substantive discussion in the first place.

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 8 2013, 10:41 PM 

The above exemplifies a non-substantive post -- published to illustrate the point.

Where's "the beef"?

 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.0.185

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 9 2013, 12:18 AM 

Maybe you need to start a new thread on the trinity: there doesn't seem any way to keep threads uncontaminated from yo-yo heads.

 
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Ken Subleltt
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ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.0.109

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 9 2013, 4:22 PM 

Paul never uses "spirit" to mean a PEOPLE: the word does not permit it.
In 1 Corinthians 2 for US The Holy Spirit is the MIND OF CHRIST. A mind is a spirit: a mind is never disconnected from the persson.

Our UNholy spirit becomes A holy spirit when is baptized requesting the remission of sins. People with A holy spirit or A good conscience, consciousness or a co-perception are informed and are able to read black text on white paper. HOLY is never a first name of a people. Spirit applied to God means BREATH: when applied to silly people it means FLATULENCE.

[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.210.0.109 on Aug 9, 2013 4:25 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.2.56

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 8 2013, 12:43 PM 

Isn't it prophetic that the MOST who are called are not the FEW who are chosen because almost without exception the clergyHOODS try to scramble the Word and make DOGMA out of it (Music is defined as dogma).

Spiritually Discerned does not mean that you have A Holy Spirit manipulating your brain cells bit it means FIGURATIVELY DISCERNED. Figurative language is better understood by people all of whom have a FIGURATIVE word for CONCEPTS.

Jesus said that Parables had been used from the foundation of the World (which may mean from the CASTING DOWN of the world then existing). This would FOOL the Scribes and Pharisees Jesus quoted Ezekiel to identify self-speakers, singers and instrument players.

Psalms 104:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
Psalms 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light AS with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens LIKE a curtain:
Psalms 104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters:
who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: SPIRIT
Psalms 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Psalms 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
Psalms 104:6 Thou coveredst it with the deep AS with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
Psalms 104:7 At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
Psalms 104:8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.
Psalms 104:9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.
Psalms 104:10 He sendeth the springs into the valleys, which run among the hills.
Psalms 104:11 They give drink to every beast of the field: the wild asses quench their thirst.

Not all donkeys know how to DRINK THE SPIRIT.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be TO HIM a Father, and he shall be TO ME a Son?
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels SPIRITS, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Hebrews 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Hebrews 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.210.2.56 on Aug 8, 2013 3:56 PM


 
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Bill
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74.179.209.9

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 9 2013, 12:52 PM 

Donnie, you're "suggesting" that Paul's omission of the Holy Spirit in his salutations indicates the Holy Spirit is not a "third person," let alone a "person." In your lead post, you even rely on some nameless "theologian" who supports your idea. Your premise is merely conjecture, an assumption. You assume that because Paul's salutations omit the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit is not a "person." Paul's salutations mention nothing of the kind, one way or another.

I could make a similar assumption if I posed the premise that Paul omitted the Holy Spirit in his salutations because he believed the Holy Spirit had less authority than God and Christ.

Paul's salutations do not say that the Holy Spirit is a person; they also do not say that the Holy Spirit is not a person. Therefore, we must guard against making rash conjectures and assumptions about the Holy Spirit based on Paul's salutations or based on what we WANT any of the apostles to say about the Holy Spirit. We must guard against using Paul or the other apostles to go out on a thin limb to "justify" our personal perceptions of the Holy Spirit.

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 9 2013, 10:37 PM 

Bill,

The apostle Paul and others were greeting Christian churches and individuals PERSONALLY as recorded in ALL 20 epistles. UNANIMITY [i.e., without any exception] in this given situation RULES. And it rules out conjectures and assumptions, even "personal perceptions."

I'm very surprised that you are now employing the fallacious pro-instrumental musicologist's logic -- "The Bible does not say "not to" [use the piano, sackbut, dulcimer, trumpet (Daniel 30]); therefore, it makes God happy [just as we think so] to worship Him with lifeless, inanimate musical objects."

It is better for us to abide by the principle or law of silence -- "... we are silent where the Bible is silent." Let us not attempt to alter the truth, even once, that Paul's salutations simply stated: (1) God the Father AND (2) the Lord Jesus Christ, His Son ... and then infer the presence of the Trinity's Third Person, "the Holy Spirit."

These salutations are truth, simple but definitive -- unlike your nebulous assertion that: "Paul's salutations do not say that the Holy Spirit is a person; they also do not say that the Holy Spirit is not a person."

There's a huge loophole in your argument. Here's why -- your "... the salutations do not say" allusion [either way] is illogical because the salutations simply DO NOT INCLUDE the Trinity's "Third Person."

We also need to consider that there are numerous references, besides the salutations, to the relationship and communication between: (1) God the Father and (2) His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. [Please don't even ideate that the Virgin Mary, "the Mother of God" (per the R.C.C.) should be included in the "familial" unit.]

  • "... no man knoweth the Son, but the Father" (Matt. 11:27)
  • "... the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father" (John 10:15)
  • "... I am in the Father, and the Father in me" (John 14:10)
  • "... the Father ... dwelleth in me" (John 14:10)
  • "... I am not yet ascended to my Father" (John 20:17)
  • "... He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." (II John 1:9)
  • "... but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Rev. 3:5)
  • "... I and my Father are one." (John 10:30)
Now, let's count the number of assumptions you made, and compare that with the number of passages of truth that I have referenced.

 
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Bill
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74.179.210.189

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 10 2013, 12:45 AM 

I have assumed nothing. YOU assume that because Paul omits the Holy Spirit in his salutations, then that indicates the Holy Spirit is not a person. You cannot base your premise on what Paul DOES NOT SAY in his salutations. If you do, then you pursue the same fallacious reasoning as those who "justify" worshipping with musical instruments because Jesus in the Gospels DOES NOT condemn instruments. Actually, Jesus says NOTHING one way or another about instruments in the Gospels; likewise, Paul says NOTHING one way or another about the Holy Spirit in his salutations. Yet we know that we do not justify instruments based on what Jesus DOES NOT SAY; likewise, you cannot legitimately justify your premise about the Holy Spirit based on what Paul DOES NOT SAY in his salutations. Your premise is merely an assumption, which is proof of nothing.


 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 10 2013, 4:21 AM 

I believe that what is referred to in Scripture as "the holy spirit" is God's [HIS] own holy spirit -- not the devil's spirit, not man's spirit. Ephesians 4:30 tells you and me that we are to "grieve not the holy Spirit of God." (We just cannot ignore that preposition "OF," can we, Bill? WHOSE "spirit" is it? Yours? I think not! Mine? I think not! Oh, it must be "the spirit" which is HOLY -- and that "holy spirit" belongs to God.)

I also maintain that the Trinity Creed's claim that the "third-person" Holy Spirit is God is false and that "He, the Holy Spirit" does not exist as a Third Person God.

It is clear to me based on what the Scripture tells me that there is a colossal difference between:

(1) SCRIPTURE -- That "the holy spirit" is God's spirit which is holy
------------------- versus --------------------
(2) TRINITY -- That "The Holy Spirit" (a separate Being) is God

All I'm saying is that in ALL of Paul's salutations:
--------(1) God the Father is addressed;
--------------------- and --------------------
--------(2) the Lord Jesus Christ, His Son, is addressed.

The "Holy Spirit" is NOT addressed in the salutations. I don't think that Paul had a memory lapse [a senior moment] in each of those instances. If Paul were a Trinitarian apostle, he would have never failed to address the various churches and individuals EVERY TIME, as follows:

Grace be to you, and peace:
---------- (1) From God the Father,
---------- (2) From the Lord Jesus Christ
--------------------- and ------------------
---------- (3) From the Holy Spirit (Trinity's ADDITION)


That the "Holy Spirit" ("person" or not) is not mentioned in all of the salutations is TRUTH -- it is NOT an assumption.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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