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A-Won
(no login)
108.230.197.238

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 10 2013, 4:10 PM 

>
Douay-Rheims Bible

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Evil in the Last Days

1Know also this, that, in the last days, shall come dangerous times. 2Men shall be lovers of themselves, covetous, haughty, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, wicked, 3Without affection, without peace, slanderers, incontinent, unmerciful, without kindness, 4Traitors, stubborn, puffed up, and lovers of pleasures more than of God: 5Having an appearance indeed of godliness, but denying the power thereof. Now these avoid. 6For of these sort are they who creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, who are led away with divers desires: 7Ever learning, and never attaining to the knowledge of the truth. 8Now as Jannes and Mambres resisted Moses, so these also resist the truth, men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith. 9But they shall proceed no farther; for their folly shall be manifest to all men, as theirs also was.

All Scripture is God-Breathed

10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, patience, 11Persecutions, afflictions: such as came upon me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra: what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12And all that will live godly in Christ Jesus, shall suffer persecution. 13But evil men and seducers shall grow worse and worse: erring, and driving into error. 14But continue thou in those things which thou hast learned, and which have been committed to thee: knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures, which can instruct thee to salvation, by the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, 17That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.


***************************

Donnie, I'm NOT seeing a DRB bail-out for you. happy.gif


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 10 2013, 4:43 PM 

A-Won,

Bro, "no comprende." That you cited my favorite passages.

Don't you agree with the passages I quoted from the Scripture regarding Paul's salutations?

Feel free to join the discourse.

 
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Scripture
(no login)
98.87.35.4

God-Spirited

August 10 2013, 5:47 PM 

Interesting that in verse 16, 2 Timothy 3, it says that Scriptures are "God-breathed", or "God-Spirited." Spirit=="pneuma"

In the verse 7, 2 Timothy 3, it says that some are "ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth." Knowledge is critical in the Christian life, in that it allows faith, and that faith forms in our knowing the love of God as shown in Christ's sacrifice for us. In other words, knowledge of God's love outpoured in the sacrifice of the cross, grants us faith in God, and all these truths are revealed in Scripture.

"God breathes", or "His Spirit shows". As we know not where the wind ("pneuma") comes from, neither do we know the exact circumstances the full details of the motivations of being born of the Spirit. John 3:8.


 
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Ken Subleltt
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.0.109

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 9 2013, 10:01 PM 

Where the Bible speaks we speak. God never speaks by what He does not say.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God,
.....and one mediator between God and men,
.....the man Christ Jesus;

That DOES say that there is not A Holy Spirit PEOPLE who mediates between man and God.
God communicates by His breath (spirit). Certainly He is just as powerful as we His creature in His Image.

Christ or the Messiah came FULLY in the flesh. If Jesus as the ARTICULATED WORD of God was not a member of a POLYTHEISTIC GOD FAMILY then the BREATH [Spirit means breath] was not a member of a trinitarian family. The ONE God says classical trinitarians always had His Breath and His Word with Him.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
.....that God hath made that same Jesus,
whom ye have crucified,
.....both Lord and Christ.

Jesus was not Lord [kurios] and Christ until God [Theos] made Him to be.

Jesus in His post-glorified state IS The Holy Spirit Comforter. He is King and High Priest and therefore there can be NO OTHER Spirit other than the MIND of Christ. He promised to guide the Apostles (only) into all truth. When the "parts" were left for our memory anyone who goes beyond is called a false teacher.

As the PARTS are finished as REVEALED to the apostles, The Holy Spirit disappears and men like Paul who could see AND hear and the other writers leave us with what Donnie has shown in blue and white,

There is the ONE God [Theos] the Father
And One Son Jesus of Nazareth as Lord (Kurios)
To claim that either the ONE AND ONLY GOD or His LORD with ALL power needs an imagined Holy Spirit person (rather than the Spirit OF God) is, according to John, the sign of AntiChrist.

[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.210.0.109 on Aug 9, 2013 10:11 PM


 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.63.232

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 10 2013, 6:57 PM 

Right. God does not speak by what He does not say. We msut go by what God SAYS. We must do the same with Paul. We cannot assume Paul means something by what he does NOT say. Paul says nothing about the Holy Spirit in his salutations. Therefore, we cannot, MUST NOT, jump to the conclusion that Paul does not regard the Holy Spirit as a "person."

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Trinitarians Are Not Authorized to Add the Holy Spirit in the Salutations

August 11 2013, 4:12 PM 

Bill,

That's exactly the premise of this thread -- that in the 20 salutations (from Romans, the Corinthians to Jude) and the references in the Gospel of John and other NT books:

... God's [HIS] own holy spirit is NOT addressed -- MISSING
... God the Father is addressed
... The Lord Jesus Christ, His Son, is addressed.

What the apostle Paul does not say, we simply can not and must not authorize ourselves to say it.

You said it yourself: "... Paul says nothing about the Holy Spirit in his salutations."

How true!!!

These are salutations! PERSONAL salutations to churches and individuals. In our culture, as probably it was in apostolic times, you would not want to miss anyone among the FEW in the group being introduced. Paul did not have a "senior moment" in each of the salutation instances. He was confident!

Paul was certainly not a Trinitarian apostle. He matched his teaching in the salutations with that about "the Godhead." Please NOTE in Colossians 2:1-10 --


... That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ... As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him ... Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ ... For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

We should just leave Paul's message alone. HE DID NOT ADD ANOTHER DIVINE BEING TO THE GODHEAD -- comprised of the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, His Son.

We should also let the Scripture speak for "the holy Spirit OF the living God [or Jesus Christ the Lord or the Father]. The holy Spirit belongs to God.

The Trinity Creed is responsible for ADDING a divine Being it calls the Third Person.

 
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Ken Subleltt
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.0.109

Re: Trinitarians Are Not Authorized to Add the Holy Spirit in the Salutations

August 11 2013, 4:28 PM 

Paul said nothing about A Holy Spirit but we cannot assume that Paul said nothing about a Holy Spirit.

Maybe he WANTED to say something about A holy spirit but said nothing assuming that we would figure out the Trinitarian Creed which denies

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

But, Paul did not say THERE ARE NOT TWO Gods so why should I assume that there not be two gods.

God is a Theos but Jesus is a Kurios and God MADE HIM TO BE both Lord and Christ.
As mediator he must be man. If He was and is MAN then Jesus is not God so we have to eleminate Him from the TRINITY. People deprive Jesus of His work and authority when they try to make Him into a God People.

The WORD was God and God creates all things by HIS WORD(s). Jesus ARTICULATED the WORD and therefore is the instrumental means of God's power. That is why people who do not teach that which is written for our learning are NOT connected to the Flow of Information. And if they SELL their own body talents and speak their own words then Paul and the Greeks calls him a prostitute. It really doesn't mater which BODY PART you sell if you think your talent delivers the power of the Word.

 
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A-Won
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108.230.197.238

Re: Trinitarians Are Not Authorized to Add the Holy Spirit in the Salutations

August 11 2013, 4:51 PM 

I am interested in how far Donnie will venture with this Baptist style of argument. (Opps, did I say that? happy.gif ) Donnie knows full well that ALL the scripture on the Holy Spirit must be considered.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.246.157

Re: Trinitarians Are Not Authorized to Add the Holy Spirit in the Salutations

August 11 2013, 5:16 PM 

You cannot use Paul's salutations as Scripture for deciding whether or not the Holy Spirit is a "person," because Paul's salutations say NOTHING about the Holy Spirit one way or another.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Trinitarians Are Not Authorized to Add the Holy Spirit in the Salutations

August 11 2013, 7:21 PM 

You are missing your own point.

The salutations "say NOTHING about the Holy Spirit one way or another." You are correct!!!

Because you are correct, you do not have the authority to assume that the Holy Spirit should have been included in the salutation.

At this juncture, whether or not the Holy Spirit is a person is not to be considered first.

The primary consideration is the truth that Paul did not include the Holy Spirit in the salutation WHILE he intentionally addressed: (1) God the Father and (2) His Son, Jesus Christ.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.249.162

Re: Trinitarians Are Not Authorized to Add the Holy Spirit in the Salutations

August 11 2013, 6:54 PM 

BTW, what exactly is the "Baptist style" of argument?

Perhaps this is an example: Baptists "argue" that, even though Jesus links baptism with faith for salvation in the first half of Mark 16:16, Jesus omits baptism in the second half of that verse. So the Baptists ignore the first half of the verse and focus on the second half and say that baptism is not essential for salvation.

Does the "Baptist style" of argument involve focusing on those portions of verses that satisfy a particular desire or point while ignoring all other verses that may show contradiction?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Trinitarians Are Not Authorized to Add the Holy Spirit in the Salutations

August 11 2013, 7:33 PM 

Bill, the salutations are not parallel to Mark 16:16. NOT AT ALL!!!

The "and" in the salutations refers to: (1) God the Father "and" (2) His Son, Jesus Christ the Lord. There is no "but" in those addresses.

The salutations do not have another clause similar to "but he that believeth not [without being baptized] shall be condemned."

The salutations are straightforward -- no "ifs" and no "buts."

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.247.191

Re: Trinitarians Are Not Authorized to Add the Holy Spirit in the Salutations

August 12 2013, 8:58 AM 

I wasn't trying to make salutations equal with Mark 16:16. I was curious about A-Won's term "Baptist style" of argument and wanted him to explain what he meant by that term. I wanted to know if Baptists' using Mark 16:16 to argue against baptism as essential for salvation was possibly an EXAMPLE of that "style."

Now you just settle down and let A-Won clarify what "Baptist style" of argument is.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Trinitarians Are Not Authorized to Add the Holy Spirit in the Salutations

August 13 2013, 1:31 AM 

Curious?

You were impatient, though. You satisfied your own curiosity, obviously, with your "example."

Your Mark 16:16 argument against the salutation passages simply did not "compute."

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.13.179

Re: Trinitarians Are Not Authorized to Add the Holy Spirit in the Salutations

August 13 2013, 9:36 AM 

Impatient? really, Donnie, you do have quite a fanciful imagination, LOL. Since A-Won accused YOU of using "Baptist-style" arguments, I'd like for him to confirm that my EXAMPLE using Mark 16:16 is correct. Then I can better understand YOUR use of Baptist-style arguments in your future posts. Now since you also have a penchant for using Catholic Bibles, would you like to show us some "Catholic-style" arguments as well? happy.gif

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Trinitarians Are Not Authorized to Add the Holy Spirit in the Salutations

August 14 2013, 4:00 AM 

Impatient? Yes.

Let's be patient, alright? Give A-Won time.

You're imaginative. "Catholic-style" arguments!!! Thanks for reminding me -- of your "Baptist-style" instrumental music. Don't you miss playing in worship?

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.12.154

Re: Trinitarians Are Not Authorized to Add the Holy Spirit in the Salutations

August 14 2013, 12:06 PM 

You're getting impatient with those who disagree with you. Relax and settle down. happy.gif

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Trinitarians Are Not Authorized to Add the Holy Spirit in the Salutations

August 11 2013, 7:38 PM 

A-Won,

What do you think I've been doing all this time? I have quoted scores and scores of passages from Scripture in order to consider the totality of the Holy Spirit discussion. Have you been skipping or rejecting those passages?

I have dealt with "the spirit OF..." to cover the concept that whatever belongs [a part of] to a whole NEVER indicates that the "PART" becomes another "WHOLE." Simply put, the Spirit OF the living God does not create a separate diving Being called "God." Close to 70 references!!!! How difficult is that concept to comprehend????????????????

I have dealt with "the Godhead" in Colossians 2:1-10 -- where it says that the Godhead [the "mystery of God"] is comprised of" (1) God the Father AND (2) His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have dealt with the salutations in Paul's and in others' epistles to churches and individuals which consist of: (1) God the Father AND (2) the Lord Jesus Christ -- again, the Holy Spirit [considered in the Trinity Dogma as a separate Divine Being] is missing.

And there are other references throughout the Bible that are included in the discussion. For example: The Jews' concept of the Spirit of God in the Old Testament is about His power.

What have you offered? To my knowledge: NONE.

I think it's about time for Trinity followers to take into consideration SERIOUSLY if the creed or dogma is scriptural. There's has been NO PROOF from Scripture that the creed is biblical, as the invented doctrine is "conjecture."

I'd rather not think that you are not serious. But, unfortunately, your style has been making "DRB" and "Baptist" retortions, instead of actually REFUTING point by point any premise that I present or each of the numerous references that I present.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.249.162

Salutation to 1st Peter

August 11 2013, 6:47 PM 

According to Donnie, "Paul and the other apostles/writers do not mention 'the Holy Spirit' [in their salutations]. This absence suggests that Paul and the others did not regard the Holy Spirit as a person." Actually, one apostle DOES mention the Holy Spirit in his salutation.

But first, let's examine the "opposite end" of Donnie's reasoning. If an apostle mentions the Holy Spirit in any of his salutations, it would suggest that apostle regarded the Holy Spirit as a person. Now observe the complete salutation to Peter's first epistle:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (1 Peter 1:1-2 KJV).

Whereas Paul does not mention the Holy Spirit in his salutations, Peter DOES mention the [Holy] Spirit in the salutation to his first epistle. Does that REALLY mean Peter regards the Holy Spirit as a "person" but Paul does not? Anything we say about that, one way or another, would be pure conjecture; it would simply be our personal opinion, based on our bias about whether or not we regard the Holy Spirit as a "person." Therefore, we must not make rash statements or draw improper conclusions about the Holy Spirit based what we would have Peter, Paul, or any of the other apostles say or mean in their salutations.

 
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Anonymous
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.0.109

Re: Salutation to 1st Peter

August 11 2013, 7:35 PM 

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
.....through sanctification of the spirit,
.....unto obedience and
.....sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
.....Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1 Peter 1:2


Notice that it says sanctification OF THE SPIRIT: It is not possible that a Spirit PERSON would need to be SANCTIFIED: We receive sanctification OF the spirit (ours) when we obey and are covered by the blood of Jesus. Would a spirit PERSON need to OBEY?

When we are baptized our UNholy spirit becomes A holy spirit which is the same as A good conscience.

1Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
.....(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,
.....but the request for A good conscience toward God,
.....by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time
.....the Spirit OF Christ which was in them did signify,
.....when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him.
.....And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant,
.....and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:
.....worship GOD :
.....for the testimony of Jesus
.....is the spirit of prophecy.

Our SOUL and SPIRIT are often interchangeable

1Pet. 1:22 Seeing
.....ye have purified [holy] your souls
.....in obeying the truth
.....through the Spirit [The WORDS of Jesus ARE SPIRIT]
.....unto unfeigned love of the brethren,
.....see that ye love one another with a pure [HOLY] heart fervently:

The SEED is the WORD

Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them,
.....He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
.....Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

1Pet. 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,
.....by the word of God,
.....which liveth and abideth for ever.

We are BORN AGAIN when we DIE to sin, obey in baptizm for the remission of sins

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,
.....but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Romans 6:18 Being THEN made free from sin,
.....ye became the servants of righteousness.

A person who is FREE FROM sin has A holy spirit.

 
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