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A-Won
(no login)
108.230.197.238

The Holy Spirit

August 13 2013, 5:50 AM 


Acts 13:2

King James Version (KJV)


2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

=========================

The first person pronoun moi (me) is used of the One speaking. Clearly the language of this passage suggests that the Holy Spirit is a personality.


https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1047-acts-13-2-the-holy-spirit-a-person

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: The Holy Spirit

August 13 2013, 10:43 PM 

A-Won,

I know it is difficult to shift our human minds:

(1) From the "Trinity" concept of the Holy Spirit as a separate Being, ALSO called God
----------------------------------
(2) To simply believing what the Scripture says that the Spirit of the Lord is THE HOLY SPIRIT which cannot be separated from God Himself.

In that passage, it is actually the Lord God speaking THROUGH His holy spirit. The pronoun "me" reminds me of a lot of the confusion in translations of the original NT Greek manuscripts -- "He" vs. "it" ... "who/whom" vs. "which" ... [pause to take a breath]

---- "... the spirit WHICH is of God" (I Cor. 2:12)
---- "... by the Spirit WHICH he hath given us" (I John 3:24)
---- "... the Holy Ghost WHICH is given unto us" (Rom. 5:5)
---- "... your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost WHICH is in you" (I Cor. 6:19)
---- "The Spirit ITSELF beareth witness with our spirit" (Rom. 8:16)

... [pause to take a breath] ... seems to indicate the inconsistency on the part of the translators with their respect or LACK OF respect for the Trinity's Third Person.

We simply CANNOT SEPARATE "the holy Spirit of God" from the Lord God Himself. No way!!! It is rather a risky assumption:

(1) That the Holy Ghost [Trinity's 3rd Person] said: "Separate me..." but...
(2) That the Lord [Trinity's 1st Person] did NOT say: "Separate me..."

A-Won, "the Holy Ghost" in the passage is "the holy Spirit OF the Lord. ["The spirit" of A-Won is NOT another person or being of A-Won.]

 
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Bill
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74.240.208.122

Re: The Holy Spirit

August 13 2013, 11:06 PM 

It is indeed difficult for us to shift our human minds when the New Testament's wording leaves no doubt to the discerning that the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity, as A-Won has shown.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: The Holy Spirit

August 14 2013, 3:02 AM 

Now I recall -- it was difficult for me to shift my mind from believing in the man-invented Trinity doctrine to believing in the scripture-based "Godhead."

It took a lot of scripture-searching to find out that there was no "Trinity" in the Old Testament and among the Jews. Neither is there in the New Testament. Instead, "the Godhead" is specified in Colossians 2:2-9.

Of course, God's Spirit is an entity just as Dr. Crump's mind or spirit is an entity. BUT, it is no proof of a spirit or mind transforming into a "person."

Bill, should your "spirit" transform into a separate being called "Bill," would you let me know firsthand?

 
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Bill
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74.179.13.211

Re: The Holy Spirit

August 14 2013, 12:11 AM 

In the article that A-Won cited, I noted this comment: "It is well-known, of course, that certain cultists deny that the Spirit of God is a Person."

Hmmm... certain CULTISTS deny that the Holy Spirit is a PERSON. That should raise a few eyebrows--and blood pressures--around here.

We must be careful not to fixate on certain verses while ignoring others in order to satisfy our personal perceptions of the Holy Spirit. For example, fixating on verses that mention "the spirit OF..." comes to mind, which would lead some to believe that the Holy Spirit is NOT a distinct entity. We must be willing to open our minds to the fact that there are other New Testament verses that state the Holy Spirit did thus and so, or said thus and so, or gave various instructions; such verses leave the clear impression that the Holy Spirit is a distinct ENTITY, if not a "person" in the physical sense. Acts 13:2 is one such verse; Acts 20:28 is another. You can look all through the New Testament and find others.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: The Holy Spirit

August 14 2013, 3:26 AM 

The word "entity" is defined as "that which is perceived or known or inferred to have its own physical existence (living or nonliving)"

1. ITS ----> could be a thing [hmmm]
2. LIVING or NONLIVING

Bill, an entity can be a part of an entity.

Such is the case in the 70 passages with the expression "the spirit OF___________"

If you, as a grammar specialist, do not comprehend the significance of the preposition "OF" in an expression [as in those several, several OT and NT passages], let's list more of the common-sense uses of the preposition:

-- the holy spirit OF God (Scripture)
-- the spirit OF Jesus Christ (Scripture)
-- the spirit OF the living God (Scripture)
-- the spirit OF the Lord (Scripture)
-- the spirit OF ________ (several more from Scripture)
-- the mind OF Bill
-- the big nose OF Durante
-- the broken leg OF the dancer
-- unholy spirit OF man

Well, Bill has a "CLEAR IMPRESSION" that God's spirit is another Divine Being; that the mind or the nose or the leg is a separate and different being of Bill, Durante, or the dancer, respectively.

 
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Bill
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74.179.248.48

Re: The Holy Spirit

August 14 2013, 8:52 AM 

Let's re-examine the definition of "entity" from dictionary.reference.com:

noun, plural en·ti·ties.
1. something that has a real existence; thing: corporeal entities.

2. being or existence, especially when considered as distinct, independent, or self-contained: He conceived of society as composed of particular entities requiring special treatment.

3. essential nature: The entity of justice is universality.

God and Jesus are spiritual entities, and they are living, although they are not physical. We know that Jesus once became a physical man on earth. Likewise, the New Testament gives us plenty of evidence to show that the Holy Spirit is a fully functioning, spiritual, living entity that is also not physical. We must cast away our narrow-minded, personal perceptions and accept that. If "Trinity" is an abominable word and concept, then don't use it. But throwing out "Trinity" does NOT induce the Holy Spirit to comply with our personal perceptions of him.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.3.157

Re: The Holy Spirit

August 14 2013, 11:58 AM 

Scripture refutes that:

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the MAN Christ Jesus;

We know NOTHING about a Holy (Wholly) Spirit God except the MAN whom god MADE TO BE both Lord and Christ and Word tells us.

Whatever you IMAGINE a Pure Mind or Spirit to be: He is something different because God saw that the imagination of man is only evil continually; that is why you can stay out of danger by PREACHING the Word by READING the Word for Comfort and Teaching.

Thanking "what ifs" proves that people are NOT Disciples of Christ who attend Bible School after they have been washed with water INTO the Word or into the School of Jesus Christ.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.3.157

Re: The Holy Spirit

August 14 2013, 4:54 PM 

I am amazed that I am never amazed that people try to rip a proof text out of it's context to affirm what John Called the mark of Antichrist:

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said,
.....Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
Acts 13:3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
Acts 13:4 So they,
.....being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

Jesus received the PROMISE or OFFICE of the Personified Spirit or Mind of God: He is the RULER of His Kingdom and HE does the sending. Paul is looking back to the Spirit Jesus appearing to Him:

Acts 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet:
.....for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose,
.....to make thee a minister and a witness
.....both of these things which thou hast seen,
..... and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

Jesus returned at Pentecost and HE hath poured out what you see and hear.
The Another Comforter different in state is called Jesus Christ the Righteous.
He promised that He would be with Paul as needed.
The Holy Spirit named Jesus Christ the Righteous commanded Acts 13:2

He appeared to Paul and forbade to let Him go into Bithynia. So, If Jesus of Nazareth in His "another" form as Spirit DID appear to Paul then these are the records.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.0.109

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 12 2013, 12:50 PM 

It's true: you can be a Master Teacher or a Harding Guru and NOT be able to read BLACK text on BROWN paper.

A Christian is a follower of Jesus MADE TO BE both Lord and Christ.
A Christian is a DISCIPLE of Christ: A Disciple never challenges their teacher Who does NOT grade on the curve.

I strongly believe that a person has not "been washed with water INTO the Word" or INTO the School of Christ if they can even THINK "Is THAT a salvation ISSURE?"

The new Grace-Centered Cult in fact CONFESSES: "Yes, we know that we are sinning but Grace is going to cover us."

THEIR Graces and Muses are "blue-eyed, blond singer-prostitute" called LOCUSTS and SORCERERS.

The BIBLICAL ANTITHESIS which they cannot Read Titus because ONLY JESUS discounts the Epistles and even calls them divisive letters of divisive men.

[linked image]


 
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Scripture
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98.87.35.4

Grace and Spirit

August 13 2013, 9:16 AM 

There is much on which to meditate on previous post, in that it ties grace only salvation to the topic of the Spirit.

The idea that "there is nothing you need to do," and "we are saved 100% by grace [or by faith as it is sometimes stated]."

The Spirit, at least when personified [conceived to be a person], can become [in the persons's mind] the means by which grace alone [100%] is achieved. The disjunction that many followers of Christ have, in the failure to associate knowledge and faith with the work of the Spirit and the action of Grace. Grace initially comes in the gift of Christ. Grace redeems us in its provision of faith, repentance, and baptism. Grace perfects us when in our love for doing His will that we study his word and apply that in our lives.

What Concerned Members does do, is to project the rational mind into the process, the manner by which the Human processes the legal requirements of the spiritual life, and the honors the Christian's success in being obedient.

CM strips away mindless dependence on a Sovereign Work of the Spirit, and places responsibility on the individual. This way, God has every right to judge us according to his law [of love, of compassion, of service]. This obedience to his law is the expression of our faith, that has been built on our knowledge [again a critical CM concept] of the love that God provided to us in the gift of His Son. Without the Written Word to reveal that love to us, we could not have faith. Faith is the critical forerunner of obedience to his teaching.


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Grace and Spirit

August 14 2013, 4:13 AM 

The individual Christian has spiritual responsibilities.

The Christian is to remain faithful unto death in order to receive a crown of life (Rev. 2:10); in the word to come everlasting life (Luke 18:30; I Tim. 1:16). He is to do good works or works of righteousness as faith without works is dead (James 2).

The Christian is to: "... grieve not the holy Spirit OF God" (Eph. 4:30).

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.0.109

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 12 2013, 2:37 PM 

Let me restate my Thesis:
Much of the Bible is to REPUDIATE the pagan views of their gods and their burden-laded rituals having such a low opinion of the Eternal Spirit of the Universe that they can IMAGE Him as a man with all of his carnal appetites.

ALL pagan triads consisted of a father god (inseminator) and a mother (spirit) as the inseminated and an inferior son often as the son of a cuckolded father.

No one can read the Bible and not conclude that Jehovah says of Him self that I AM ALL ALONE: there is no other god (elohim) beside me. There are many gods (elohim) but I (Jehovah) am the only LORD. Any could be a pretend god by inventing their own rituals and composing their own songs and sermons: the Scribes and Pharisees (speakers, singers, instrument players) were the THEN PRESENT enemy of God who did battle with Jesus of Nazareth Whom he made and sent to preach GOD'S truth.

The New Testament works really hard to DENOUNCE the always-pagan triads or "families of gods" (that's why we REMOVE Church of Christ and add Family of God). The folly is that the MASSES or MANY of whom Paul said "if they will not work neither shall they eat" prove that they are STRONGLY DELUDED and the MARK of strong delusions is the very same Scribes and Pharisees performint THEIR cultur-sensitive services by HIRING a Staff Infection to PERFORM doing church for YOU (simple laying by in storer)

I understand that "career path" does not let any preacher affirm or refute.

[linked image]

 
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Scripture
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98.87.35.4

Spirt would come

August 13 2013, 8:51 AM 

John 14:26 -- But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Also what does John 16:7 say? -- 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The passage in John 16 does imply that the victory of Christ over sin, condemnation, and death will in itself comfort them (John 14:26) as well as give meaning to [remind them of all things] that Jesus had taught.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.4.205

Re: Spirt would come

August 13 2013, 11:16 PM 

Romans 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
Romans 15:2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
Romans 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Romans 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Comfort is the same paraklses
II. exhortation, address, pros ton okhlon Th.8.92 ; ou p. heurontes, alla parainesin grapsantes not a mere address to their feelings, but counsel to act rightly,
III. consolation, LXX Is.30.7, Na.3.7, Ep.Hebr.6.18, Phalar.Ep.103.1


That is the opposite of NOT speaking that which is written for our learning and the spirit is believed to be that "drunk without wine" which makes your body do things agaisnt its will. Musicologists and Science knows that is the LADED BURDEN or "spiritual anxiety through religious rituals."

Nothing gives me more comfort than the promises of God and the fact that He meant it when He said that He does not speak to the wise but to we so simple-mindled that we can read the context-hopefully.

 
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A-Won
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108.230.197.238

Re: Spirt would come

August 14 2013, 11:18 AM 

Scripture, maybe you would like to expound on your feelings on the subject of the Holy Spirit. I mean really let your hair down and tell us how you really feel. You seem very knowledgeable on the Word and your input would be appreciated.

 
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Scripture
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98.87.35.4

Re: Spirit would come

August 14 2013, 2:23 PM 

I fear that the divide between the Holy Spirit being a person, being a power, a sidekick, or a conscience might distract us from developing the Holy Spirit within us. The appearance of the Spirit, its influence, power, and destination is as mysterious as the wind, in regard to the development of the Christian gospel, the conversion of one to Christ with the interaction of conscience, mind, preaching, and changing of mind, and in its work in the early Church [and also in today's Church] and in our lives. Pardon me if need be, but I have more comfort in referring to the Spirit as an non-gendered personal pronoun "it." This incorporates it power, its mystery, and its presence effectively.

The gift of the Spirit is not distinct from Christian character, nor is it independent of Christ's gift on the cross, neither can it be separated from God the Father dwelling in us, nor Christ dwelling in us. I know that Christ is a person, and through his personhood he provides us with a pattern by which to model our lives. To attain that holy life, we must develop the spiritual life, and when we do, God and His Son dwell in us and we are sealed (stamped) with the "earnest" (down payment) of his Spirit. "Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts" (2 Corinthians 1:22).

We get better by graduation, or by small steps, and not by a mighty leap. Going forward at a "crusade" might have us believe that we have been saved "instantaneously", but acceptance of the Christian life is by gradual steps, and thereby we "attain the Spirit." It is better to make small stride, developing Christian character, for Peter says "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:8). This Peter states after giving his list of the Christian graces. The grace of God to us, in incremental, and a dialogue. God makes an offer to us. We respond in reflex, and God gives us further instructions. Upon completion of these instructions, we are provided with gifts from Him that give promise to bring us to devotion. Finally, in full expression of faith we manifest the presence of God to our world.

The topic of the Holy Spirit is involved, with so many applications. Note that Jesus said in John 3:8 "The wind blows where it lists [gravitates toward], and thou [singular pronoun, referring to Nicodemus] hearest its sound, but cannot tell from where it comes, and where it goes, so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." So the Spirit is not material, but of the mind, heart, and spirit. Mind would refer to the rational thought, heart refers to intent, and spirit refers to the nonmaterial connectivity to facts sometimes beyond the heart and mind. The life of Christ as spoken through the Holy Scriptures appeals to the rational mind and sets our intent on responding to his love. The Spirit is the connectivity to God, and to the Son's life, death, and resurrection. The Spirit rides on the truth of Christ's gifts.
But the nonmaterial aspects of the Spirit must be manifest in church life and individual Christian life.

A. The unity of the Spirit is achieved in the framework of Christ's church.

As Paul says in Ephesians 5: "2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Notice that God is "through" us and "in" us in "all", according to verse 6. When we have attained to quality of love, this is the greatest Christian character trait, even above faith. But love is a product of faith, since we see how God loved us, and that faith in God's love, transfers to our brother and sisters. This is the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

B. The Spirit is manifest in our Christian character.

Galatians 5 lists the fruits of the Spirit: "33 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." When one adopts these qualities, as a result of Christ's gift of suffering, he or she can be said to have the Spirit of Christ. When these are absent, one has failed to crucify the affections and lusts of the flesh.

When we understand heavenly things, then we can understand the earthly things that happen about us (John 3:12), "12 If I have told you [plural, addressed to more than Nicodemus] earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye [plural] believe, if I tell you [plural] of heavenly things?"
When we have accomplished these Christian qualities in our lives, then the Spirit dwells in us, and God dwells in us as well. James (2:18) says "Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." James thinks it is difficult to show faith without works.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.13.45

Re: Spirit would come

August 14 2013, 4:44 PM 

So we may conclude that our perceptions of the Holy Spirit differ from person to person. Some believe that the Holy Spirit is the "spirit OF God..." and is not a distinct entity or even a person. Some believe that the Holy Spirit dwells within true Christians. Others believe that the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity along with God and Jesus, a "he or him" entity, whereas others prefer an "it" entity. Some believe that the Holy Spirit comprises the third "person" of the Trinity, whereas others vehemently oppose any kind of "Trinity" concept. And then there are varying combinations of these beliefs.

I believe that Scripture is correct in advising us not to dwell so much on what exactly the Holy Spirit is (person, entity, non-entity, part of/not part of the Trinity, etc.), which might "distract us from developing the Holy Spirit within us." If we simply accept that the Holy Spirit EXISTS and is with us, then we may be in a better frame of mind to receive the gifts and fruits that "he" makes available to us.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Spirit would come

August 15 2013, 12:04 AM 

Bill,

Your conclusion is common knowledge (it's what we've been discussing all along) ... and wordy, essentially pacifying and satisfying yourself. [I really like A-Won's response -- brief but appreciative. happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif]

Scripture's message that is applicable to Christian living deserved recognition. Instead, you used the opportunity to continue to promote your own agenda.

A keen observer would have noticed the intended use of a "non-gendered personal pronoun 'it'" in reference to God's Holy Spirit throughout the text, as well as other related expressions: "its influence" ... "its work" ... "its mystery"; that if we were to identify a "PERSON" in the scriptural "Godhead," it would be Christ.

 
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A-Won
(no login)
108.230.197.238

Re: Spirit would come

August 14 2013, 7:12 PM 

Scripture, I enjoy your writing style. It's never confrontational or combative. Thanks for sharing your views.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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