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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 14 2013, 10:10 PM 

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Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 15 2013, 2:59 PM 

Is the coC antichrist because they believe the Holy Spirit dwells within them? I know the coC does not have creeds or position statements. Do they not know what they believe on this issue? Are you guys implying that 98% of the members of the coC are wrong on this issue? Is it possible to agree to disagree on this issue? Is this a fellowship breaker? PLEASE explain the antichrist accusations.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 15 2013, 5:39 PM 

Probably almost no member of the Church of Christ believed that the holy spirit indwelled a person other than through the Word: remember that Jesus said MY WORDS Are Spirit and they are LIFE. (John 6:63)

John Mark Hicks once warned that Max Lucado and Rubel Shelly were teaching a neo-trinity in their INCARNATIONAL writings which might DENY the Incarnation. John Mark Hicks has tried now--because it is the David Lipscomb INVENTED dogma--to twist the Campbells into being trinitarians. He means "three centers of consciousness each with their own unique powers." The Harding professors I have been reviewing says that if we say that God is Love then God MUST have someone to love! Anyone who says that God MUST be like humans is an antichrist because they deny that the MAN Jesus of Nazareth made the prophets more certain and is still the ONE COMFORTER, the MAN Jesus Christ. The neo-trinitarianism came out of the Charismatic movement: they moved from a spirit person DOES NOT dwell in a human body to, WELL, the spirit person dwells IN a person as a GIFT but HE DON'T DO NOTHING but role around heaven all day. The next step is that we are POST-CHRISTENDOM and post-Biblical and now we are led by the Holy Spirit person who tells them that God COMMANDED instrumental music. We call that the LIPSCOMB UNIVERSITY Ignatius Meditation to GET a message from god by meditating on ONE WORD. Ignatius was the Executing Priest during the Inquisition to murder any ANTI-Catholic.

From my research I would think that about half of the churches deny that the Spirit OF Christ is another person (their words which means a PEOPLE) that literally indwells a carnal body. Most of the ONCE-christian colleges and preacher's schools never rise above isolated proof text.

John who recorded Jesus to say I WILL COME as "another" Holy Spirit comforter, says that the NAME of the Comforting Spirit is Jesus Christ the righteous. John also said that if you DENY the One God (Theos) and One Lord (kurios) you are an ANTICHRIST. We have quoted this passage about a hundred times.

Just about all of the Scripture has been quoted to prove that SPIRIT cannot be a person but the MENTAL DISPOSITION of that person. If you say that the Spirit OF Christ had to force Jesus into being tempted and is now the "executing" member of the god family they you ARE antichrist.

One of the marks of Antichrist is that they NEVER get trapped into teaching a WHOLE THOUGHT PATTERN.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 15 2013, 5:54 PM 

When Scripture speaks I run to the Scriptures to see what new I can learn. He quoted this passage:

2Corinthians 6:4-6 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God,
in much patience,
in afflictions,
in necessities,
in distresses,
In stripes,
in imprisonments,
in tumults,
in labours,
in watchings, in fastings;

By pureness,
by knowledge,
by longsuffering,
by kindness,
by the Holy Spirit,
by love unfeigned,

I noticed that the passage he quoted (I shouldn't speak for him), "holy spirit" is grouped with pureness, knowledge, longsuffering, love unfeigned.

It seems to me that A SPIRIT PEOPLE would never be in the same group as these mental qualities. However a PURE spirit is a HOLY spirit.

Bot Walter Scott and Alexander Campbell said of the Holy Spirit that it is:

First, God who IS pure or wholly Spirit and
Second, the spirit of a believer who has BEEN MADE holy.

A Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) is paralleled by the same peter to.
A good conscience, consciousness meaning A co-perception.
WE need A pure heart where sin stands as an OBSTACLE to reading BLACK text on BROWN Paper (2 Cor 3)

2Corinthians 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Corinthians 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord IS that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The command from the Wilderness onward was to PREACH the Word (only) by READING the Word for comfort and doctrine. Paul says that giving heed or beholding the WORD is the ONLY thing that can change our spirit so that the "Day Star arises in your heart."

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Spirit Within

August 15 2013, 6:28 PM 

A-Won asks if Churches of Christ believe that the Spirit dwells within the individual [alone]. This is an enormous subject, and covers a lot of ground. I will try in a little bit to answer some of these questions.

The COC is multitudinal, does not have a creed, and derives from a variety of positions, which are orthodox, but are not Roman Catholic [purely] nor creedal, but I would say fit into the general Protestant orthodoxy [but maybe not the majority of Protestants]. All these statements are subject to discussion, however.

I would opine that COC finds itself, generally speaking, as saying the Spirit is not "thrown into" a person apart from the individual's will. In other words, one's human decision, intellect, and will are the gateway of the Spirit to dwell within. Through one's rationality one hears the message of Christ and His mission, weighs the evidence and repents of sins and "takes on" faith as a result of that rational encounter with the resurrection "story."

Very decisively, COC believes [I think I can say] that the "Sovereign [powerful] God does not predestine [nor force] the individual" to "take on" faith. Faith comes from the individual's free will, and is not "shoved into us" from God, or from above. Our salvation depends on our evaluation of the facts of Jesus' life and resurrection, and not own a miraculous saving experience controlled by God. But COC does believe that salvation is "conditional" on our "obeying" the provision He has made to use through "redemptive" commands or "states", such as faith, repentance, and baptism.

The crux of the discussions that you see on this site [Concerned Members] is what being "spiritual" truly means. If we say spiritual means the "personal indwelling" of the Holy Spirit, that might imply a Sovereign God predestining our own spirit's inhabitance by a Spirit entity, with that entity actually controlling our desires and characters.

COC had traditionally equated the spiritual life with the cultivation of our character by objective means, by how we live the Christian life, for example. These are the objective attributes of being a Christian, and make us truly "spiritual."

I hope this helps. COC is not a cult, far from it, and is generally recognized as one of the great Protestant Churches [if by Protestant we mean not Catholic]. All its controversial positions on doctrine, each of these can be found in other orthodox Christian groups.

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Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 15 2013, 6:06 PM 

Whether the subject is the Holy Spirit, baptism, instrumental music, or what have you, some people are driven to regard as antichrist anyone who does not believe exactly as they do.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Galatians 5 Music is witchcraft: SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

August 15 2013, 6:15 PM 

Galatians for readers.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the spirit [opposite flesh], ye are not under the law.
Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;
Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft [music, sorcery], hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

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August 15 2013, 6:33 PM 

The KJV mentions "antichrist" only four times:

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

"Antichrist" is not mentioned in any form or fashion regarding how we are to regard the Holy Spirit. Yet some narrow-minded people dare to accuse others as being antichrists, because their views of the Holy Spirit do not match 100% with those of the accusers, because those people's views perhaps include concepts such as "Trinity" or "distinct entity" or "third person," etc. Such finger-pointing, narrow-minded people are a scourge and a bane to Christianity.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Antichrist

August 16 2013, 12:38 AM 

The Holy Scripture is God-breathed, indeed.

The Scripture's message is simply that man [that includes you, Bill] is not authorized to TRANSFORM "the holy Spirit of the living God" INTO a Third "Divine" Person in order to complete the originally-pagan-concepted TRINITY set -- "Three Gods as One God."

The Scripture is clear about: (1) God the Father and (2) His Son, Jesus Christ the Lord.

1. In "the Godhead" -- cf. Col. 2:2-9
2. In the salutations -- cf. the beginning verses of 20 epistles
3. In John (the Gospel) -- Father-and-Son relationship, communication.

The Spirit OF the Father or the Spirit OF Jesus Christ IS "THE HOLY SPIRIT" -- it is not our task to transform God's holy Spirit into a SEPARATE DIVINE BEING and be called "God."

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 15 2013, 7:22 PM 

An ANTICHRIST is anyone who tries to JAM a Spirit PEOPLE between the

And ONE SON whom God made to be both Lord and Christ.

Jesus REPUDIATED the always-pagan trinity of father, mother (spirit) and mewling son. The IMAGE of God was ONE being who had his thought, breath and word with him.

An Antichrist is anyone who thinks that the ONE GOD has to have another god person to BREATH (spirit) the Word into His Son. That would say that God cannot prepare humans as His "instrumental means" for REVEALING new truth.

A Disciple never says, "BUT, it DON'T say." What God has joined together no man had better try to separate.

Spirit means BREATH: God breaths meaning INSPIRES. Only smokers in the pew behind you has a BREATH that can speak on ITS own.

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Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 15 2013, 8:03 PM 

Christians operate by what God SAYS, not by what He doesn't say. God says NOTHING about the Holy Spirit in the only four verses in the KJV that mention antichrist: 1 John 2:18, 1 John 2:22, 1 John 4:3, and 2 John 1:7. Only evil, narrow-minded people would be foolish enough to accuse Christians of being antichrist based on their differing views about the Holy Spirit.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 16 2013, 12:06 AM 

Got it exactly right -- that in those 4 verses [just like the 20 "salutation" verses], "God says NOTHING about the Holy Spirit..." [quoting you].

Specifically, I John 2:22 states -- "He is antichrist, that denieth [1] the Father AND [2] the Son."

I'm glad for your observation that "the Holy Spirit" is missing in that passage, in as much as I am convinced that you would like to ADD ONE MORE, "the Holy Spirit" to complete the Trinity set.

The word or prefix "anti" simply means "opposed" or "against"; thus, "against Christ."

The Trinity's Third Person ("Holy Spirit") did not come in the flesh; it was Jesus Christ who came in the flesh.

The salutations are conclusive: "Greetings!!! Our fellowship is with: [1] God the Father ... AND ... [2] the Lord Jesus Christ, His Son." [No more, no less.]

The scriptural Godhead is conclusive: "[1] God the Father AND [2] His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord ... for in Him (Jesus Christ) dwelleth ALL the FULNESS of the Godhead" (Col. 2:2-9). [No more, no less.]

It is "antichrist" [against Christ] -- to add the Trinity's Third Person because that is denying or doubting Christ in WHOM dwelleth ALL the FULNESS of the Godhead."

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 15 2013, 9:33 PM 

God is God and we are not: when all of the Scriptures speak of ONE GOD (Theos) and ONE LORD (Kurios) Who communicate by the BREATH (spirit) and people try to make the breath be a PEOPLE they are Anti-Messiahs because they say that the Kurios cannot hear the Theos.

If the command calls for A and B we use A and B and never try to explain why we don't ADD "spirits."

If a cook uses A and B then she is obedient

If a cook uses A and B and "spirits" we say she is anti-obedient.

The MUSICATORS would say that she can add instruments because she is STILL using A and B: we call them dangerously irrational.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Aug 15, 2013 9:37 PM

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

August 15 2013, 10:32 PM 

Jesus was given ALL authority of the always-pagan father, mother (spirit) and son.

Jesus affirmed HIS Role as father, spirit and son because the father WITHIN thought, breathed and articulated the Words OF God and never that of the breath or words. My breath never alters the thoughts of my mind unless I am OUT of my mind. My lips (double-edged swords) do not decide what they will articulate.

John defined ANTICHRIST as those who do not honor Father and Son. Antichrists prove their role when they refuse to "speak that which is written for our learning" and ADD or replace in song and sermon. They BOAST that the epistles recording the Word of Jesus are just flat in error so they BOAST (as psychological violence) a "spirit" guided them to sow massive discord. It is a FLOOD trying to wash away the church of Christ. Here is a command which ASSERTS and therefore is under NOT obligation to say what he IS NOT speaking about.

always giving thanks God[1 Theos] the Father for everything, the name of our Lord [1 Kurios] Jesus Christ.

And God (1 theos) made Jesus of Nazareth TO BE both Lord (1 kurios) and Christ. Therefore, 1 theos did not before Jesus of Nazareth was made 1 kurios. That means that as kurios Jesus was not a member of the God Family.

Jehovah is both Lord and God and He has His Word and Wisdom and Breath WITHIN Him.

And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all
.....In the name of the Lord [kurios] Jesus, thanks to God [theos and the Father BY him.

From reading 101a we understand that there is ONE mediator between man and God: the Man Jesus Christ.

If we do everything in the Name of Lord Jesus Christ then we are a CHRISTIAN: if we decide that we will pray in the name of a holy spirit person then we are an ANTICHRIST because we refuse to honor the Son and violate direct commands.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Aug 15, 2013 10:53 PM

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Apostle Paul's Salutations: "Third Person" Holy Spirit Is Missing

September 1 2013, 10:22 PM 

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
....whom the Father will SEND IN MY NAME, he shall teach you all things,
....and bring all things to your remembrance, WHATSOEVER I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU.

Name means NAME: The Holy Spirit will be called Jesus Christ the Righteous.
Jesus in Spirit will REMIND them of what HE has said: Jesus as Spirit will say what Jesus as Man taught.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter [paraklete] is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father,
....even the Spirit OF truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The Spirit OF Truth is not a different Spirit. This spirit will report what Jesus in the flesh said.
The Apostles such as Peter left their PART for our memory and marked as a false teacher anyone who further expounded.

Jesus as the Son of Man would ascend. However, the SPIRIT which Jesus would come is the WORD:

Son of MAN ascend up where he was before?
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
....the WORDS that I speak unto you, they ARE spirit, and they are life.

When the ONE GOD Breathed (spirit) on Jesus the Man He SPOKE what the Breath directed Him to say: therefore, the WORDS which Jesus SPOKE and inspired ARE Spirit in an audible form.

The same John affirmed what Jesus said:

1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
....And if any man sin, we have an advocate [paraklete] with the Father,
....Jesus Christ the righteous:

Using a different Word

1Timothy 2:5 For there is ONE God,
....and one mediator between God and men,
....the MAN Christ Jesus;

Jesus in His Glorified state is HOLY. He lives on the basis of SPIRIT. Therefore, He IS The Holy Spirit which is NOT the name of a people.

The SPIRIT ride on WORDS. If you say that He told you to SOW DISCORD then we KNOW that the WORD does not ABIDE in them.

Father-Son abides in the disciple CONDITIONED on their obeying God's Commandments
Disciples abide in Father-Son conditioned on their obeying God's Commandment.
A Spirit people WILL not speak to you beyond the sacred pages because the SPIRIT is TRUTH is WORD is LOGOS or regulative principle.

1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins:
....and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1John 2:3 And hereby we do KNOW that we KNOW him, if we keep his commandments.
1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him,
....and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar,
....and the TRUTH is not in him.
1John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his WORD, in him verily is the love of God perfected:
....hereby know we that we are in him.

Christ delivered the truth ONCE FOR ALL: He inspired writers to explain their PARTS using real-life examples. The ONLY way that Truth can be preserved is by WRITING. The Old Testament was WRITTEN. The Spirit OF Christ inspired the PROPHETS so that their testimony is the SPIRIT OF CHRIST.

The Church of Christ is built upon the Prophets by Christ and the prophecies made more certain by the MAN Jesus Christ. MESSIAH has to be the SEED (singular) of Abraham and not God. Because you don't know of and probably never heard of a church built upon or EDUCATED by the Prophets and Apostles, the Kingdom of God is WITHIN you and you cannot find it in a PLACE set aside as the NAVAL where you must go to hear from God.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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