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Why I lost faith

September 13 2013 at 1:01 AM
Confused  (no login)
from IP address 98.193.241.39

I grew up in church and still go. I am attempting to bring my child up that way too. I was always a lukewarm Christian so I decided for the first time at 26 to read bible cover to cover. I did, but had more questions than answers so I read it again. Even more questions. Then one night while reading Genesis to my son, I totally felt like I was lying to him. I want to believe what it says because it would be easier, but nothing about it makes sense. It makes more sense that we as people want more than anything to have meaning, and for our children to have meaning. We don't want to tell them or believe ourselves that death is it. While I don't rule the possibility of God out, I do not believe anything that happened in the Old Testament. While evolution is not a fact, it is more likely than a world wide flood with animals from all over coming to a boat. While the Big Bang is not a fact, it is more likely than a 6000 year old earth. The gospels were written 30 years or later after the fact. It would not be impossible to make things up with a gap that large. While I believe in belief, and I want to believe, I can't. My sons Christian school is even teaching evolution and billion year time scales because Christian scientist have not come up with any scientific evidence that works.

If you choke on a steak do you ask for prayers or the hiemlech?

If science is so wrong, how does GPS work?
How did they send a rover to Mars, or send a craft outside the solar system(in about the time they projected)?

If there were one or two examples, I would not have lost faith. But from the little I know, I can think of hundreds of examples.

So the question I have is how do you here believe when it makes as much logical sense as Santa?

A couple of stories that I don't get:
Golden calf- why did Moses have Levites kill everyone and then promote Aaron, the ring leader, to high priest?
Job- God makes wager with devil using at jobs expense. Why would God care what satan thinks about anything.
Noah- animal species could not get to boat from all over world. All freshwater fish would have died.
Cain- who did he marry and how were there cities already.
Lot- gets so drunk he sleeps with both daughters/ the same daughters he was ready hand over for gang rape in sodom
Abraham- prostitutes his wife to pharaoh
David- many wives and living in sin

 
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Scripture
(no login)
98.87.119.243

Loss of Faith

September 13 2013, 8:51 AM 

I would recommend that you get Word's Commentary on Genesis for a start. It shows the great difference between the Genesis account and the Babylonian Flood Myths. Genesis was a great step away from paganism, the belief that the material universe is creator rather than the creation. Science reasons from material and never gets to spiritual, because it cannot make a moral argument. Thus, science cannot prove the great spiritual law "Do unto others as you would have them do to you." Neither can it make any pronouncement that "love thy neighbor as thyself" is fundamental to "loving God." I have worked in the public and I notice that the average worker is more disconnected from Christianity than ever before.

Knowledge of the Bible is a great start to being able to make moral decision about one's life and behavior. The average worker today, while trained educationally, is lacking an great moral spiritual barometer. Their ability to make value choices is largely absent, and all that keeps our society going is the inertia of civil law. Already that is changing with the great moral codes of the past being eroded rapidly, and of course, this attitude migrates into the church. Moderns even debate about the definition of the family and of marriage.

One remarked the other day that praying and Bible reading are allowed in Russia today, but not in the United States. Power is elevated above moral rightness more and more in our USA. This leads us to be despised internationally, and to lose moral leadership. So that moral leadership passes onto our old-time enemies, those who divested themselves of communism and legalized reading the Bible.

I would recommend that you get "deeper" into knowledge of the Bible. Then you can understand what is happening "under the hood" and not just to evaluate the "motion of the car."


 
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Coach
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108.230.197.238

Re: Loss of Faith

December 1 2013, 4:44 PM 

Re: PGPs (preferred gender pronouns) View on Nov 30, 2013 9:45 PM

Care -- "if you like your health-care plan, you will be able to keep your health-care plan, period." That's a promise [a lie?] in one statement; there are others. So, what's the U.S. government coming to? Now, I can't help it: What would be the PGP for "Coach


********************************


Sneaky edits = Desperation

wink.gif

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.13.137

Re: Why I lost faith

September 13 2013, 9:25 AM 

Regardless of what you believe about the Old Testament, what do you really believe about the New Testament? If you don't believe that God could successfully call a whole pack of animals to a single "boat" before a world-wide flood, then you don't believe that God could arrange for Abraham and Sarah to have a child when they were respectively 100 and 90 years old. So what, if anything, do you believe about Jesus, salvation, and the rest of the New Testament? If you don't believe that with God, all things are possible (Matthew 19:26), then there isn't much left.

 
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Confused
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98.193.241.39

Re: Why I lost faith

September 14 2013, 7:34 PM 

I believe Jesus lived. I believe he tried to change Judaism and the leaders didn't like that so they killed him. Much the same way those in the church would do today if someone professed the same things Jesus did. I believe the gospels where written many years after the fact. I believe that Jesus never asked to be worshiped and would not like the way the modern church runs today. I guess I consider myself a deist.

Or maybe at least a doubting Thomas.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Why I lost faith

September 14 2013, 7:49 PM 

Thanks for corresponding. You have raised good questions.

Good thing is that the Bible has recorded both good and evil occurrences so that we may see, compare and contrast differences.

Keep in touch.

 
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Bill
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74.240.239.192

Re: Why I lost faith

September 14 2013, 8:06 PM 

Are you still looking for the Messiah to come, or do you believe that the Bible's prophecy of a Savior/Messiah is just a fable?

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Why I lost faith

September 16 2013, 2:35 AM 

Confused's questions were stated in the initial post. Now, Bill has an "are you ... or do you ..." question posed. How would you respond if Confused said yes either way?

 
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Bill
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74.179.210.116

Re: Why I lost faith

September 16 2013, 6:18 PM 

In the initial post, Confused primarily focused on the Old Testament and emphatically said, "I do not believe anything that happened in the Old Testament." As far as Jesus is concerned, Confused implied that it's possible to fabricate what was written in the Gospels 30 years after Jesus died. I just asked if Confused believed that some kind of Messiah (if not Jesus) was still to come, or did Confused think that everthing the Bible said about a Messiah was just a bunch of fables. In another post, Confused said s/he believed that Jesus lived on earth but seemed to doubt that He was divine. So far, Confused has not explicitly stated whether s/he believes some kind of Messiah is yet to come or whether the whole biblical concept of a Messiah is a fable. Maybe Confused has too many doubts to give a definitive answer one way or another. Now perhaps Confused will expound on this if s/he so chooses.

 
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Confused
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98.193.241.39

Re: Why I lost faith

November 25 2013, 2:00 AM 

I don't know what to believe. I believe in my heart when I read the bible to my son I am reading him fables that I am telling him are truth (like Santa). I don't know that there has to be a savior. I don't know that when we die we are not just dead. I like most, probably want to believe in belief because without it, life is meaningless. My wanting to believe life is not meaningless does not make it mean anything. I think we all fear death, or fear the death of loved ones we never see again. That gives us motivation to believe things that make no sense. So I part of me wants to believe, but part of me can't.


 
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Confused
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98.193.241.39

Re: Why I lost faith

November 25 2013, 2:19 AM 

I am not holding my breath for another Messiah. I don't know if Jesus was it, but I don't know that he wasn't.

 
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Scripture
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98.87.119.243

Deism for Confused?

September 16 2013, 5:27 PM 

It's my understanding that Deism died out in the 2nd Great Awakening between about 1810 through 1845. Jefferson and some of the early leaders of the United States are often classified as deists. Apologetic Press in Alabama (Dave Miller & associates) claim they were standard Christians (not deists), even though they were not connected with the Restoration Movement. (There is an irony here.)

Deism was discredit because it gave no hope that God would ever intervene in a person's life. They believed that God created the world like a clock, and just went off and left it. It was up to man to solve his own problems, but God had placed His laws in motion, and man had to use rationale to solve his own problems.

Deism is not the kind of religion that you would want to teach someone in the hospital. There are many who pray "God guide the hands of the doctors", but little is said about God directly bringing a cure. At least the one who prays as such, does believe that God can guide the hands of doctors.

Did you ever think that the New Testament says that Christians are the "children of God." Is there any connection between Jesus being the "son of God" and our becoming "children of God." I just want "Confused" to think about that!

 
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Confused
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98.193.241.39

Re: Deism for Confused?

November 25 2013, 2:17 AM 

Deism is dead as a religion but not as an ideology if I spelled it correctly. I don't believe in miracles, past or present. If you say God intervenes for you if your child is ill with cancer, but He does not intervene for your brethren's child, did he not pray hard enough? I can't logically grasp why God would step in to save one person and let the one next to him perish. I also can't grasp how all this would be without some Creator that has powers beyond what we can comprehend. So while I think He could intervene, I don't think He would. I don't know that this Creator gives us eternal life any more than a dog or an ant. I do think people over time have written books to suit their needs which is why I am interested in how the bible came to be. I have just been brought up to take it all literally and I guess I have an all or nothing attitude. I am trying to get my head around it so when I talk to my son about this, I don't feel like I am telling him lies.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
70.210.4.69

Re: Why I lost faith

September 13 2013, 12:41 PM 

Golden calf- why did Moses have Levites kill everyone and then promote Aaron, the ring leader, to high priest?

In Genesis 49 Jacob had cursed the tribe of Levi and warned people NOT to enter into covenant with them or attend their assemblies.

When their "brethren" rose up in musical idolatry they proved that they had learned nothing from God's Grace.

The murderous Levites jumped at the chance to kill 3000 of the idolaters. After the fall God commanded that the Levite bear the SWORD and execute any of the godly people who went near or into the sacrificial machinery. In Acts 7 God TURNED THEM OVER to worship the starry host and sentenced them to return "beyond Babylon" which meant "no return."

God did not COMMAND King, Kingdom, Temple, animal slaughter or the Levites performing as SORCERERS with Instrumental NOISE. Read Isaiah 1 and Jeremiah 7. Christ in the prophets calls them robbers and parasites. Therefore, we as Disciples read to see what happened in recorded history. Remember that the Old Testament is a history of the Hebrew People and not a history of the universe.

The Church of Christ (the Rock) continued as the Qahal, ekklesia or synagogue and did not perform rituals trying to pay God for something. Churches of Christ have historically been Bible-Centered. The Bible Stories do not mean that God COMMANDED us to do something just because the Bible records the story. If the Scribes put all of their trust in the temple which God DID NOT COMMAND, then be a student of the Prophets and hear Christ warn about the LYING PEN OF THE SCRIBES. The Bible records the good, bad and ugly so that we can know that God accepts people because they reverence God and work righteousness.

Aaron was high priest only after the people repudiated The Book of the Covenant which was Abrahamic. Because there were no mandatory religious PERFORMANCES, the First Born Sons were the civil and religious leaders. The king and priests came only after the "elders" wanted a King Set Over them: God knew that they had REJECTED his rule. He then abandoned them to the sentence of Captivity and death. God gave them kings "in His anger" because He knew that the people wanted to "worship like the nations."

http://www.piney.com/First-Samuel-Eight.html




 
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Scriptures
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98.87.119.243

Re: Why I lost faith

September 14 2013, 1:11 AM 

Actually, there are a large number of people who have resolved these questions and have strong faith. For example, Aaron's being appointed priest after following the suggestions of the people, illustrates that public opinion can be questionable, while, at times, there should be some respect for spiritual leadership. Aaron was no Moses for sure, but even Moses the great lawgiver showed his pride and lack of faith at times.

The failure of the "multitude" to faithfully follow God did not imply that the priestly leadership was to be despised. There may be some graduation here also between motives--perhaps the people were depraved more totally while Aaron followed a momentary indiscretion. Even David's heart was redeeming, while his actions were deplorable.

There is also the distance that we today have from the Old Testament. Tht covenant was given to those in an era quite different from the Christian age. If that covenant had been perfect, there would have been no need for a new covenant, rooted in the heart and in the knowledge of God. The activities of God were therefore different from what we would expect today, since we are rooted in the new dispensation.

These were a people who were what we would call reward-oriented and punishment-adverse, so they were dealt with stiffly. The new covenant of Jesus Christ is oriented toward his people, those who are motivated and moved by the favor of God and His gift of Jesus, who respond to God through love and adoration. This is not to rule out considerations of reward and punishment, but simply to say that the higher motivations are those of love.

The events of the Old Testament take the differences of that era into account.

I would recommend rather than abandoning faith, that you learn more.

 
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Bill
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74.179.62.76

Re: Why I lost faith

September 14 2013, 9:50 AM 

"Confused" says that s/he has read the Bible cover-to-cover at least twice. Other questions that Confused may have are these: If God is perfect and omnipotent, why did He give an "imperfect" Old Covenant (Mosaic Law) in the first place? Why did He give a covenant that didn't completely do the job? Why did God first want "atonement" for sins through animal sacrifices, when His plan all along was to send Jesus to make the Final atonement? Why wasn't Jesus sent much earlier, instead of the Mosaic Law, to establish His Covenant permanently and "get the job done" once and for all time?

Perhaps the answers to these questions are the "mystery of God."

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8,9 KJV).

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Why I lost faith

September 16 2013, 2:49 AM 

... and hundreds and hundreds more questions similar to the ones you posed above.

Confused listed some 10 questions in the initial post. Can we provide answers to the rest of those questions first?

 
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Confused
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98.193.241.39

Re: Why I lost faith

November 25 2013, 3:14 AM 

The ten are just ten of hundreds I read and never really new until I read it all for myself. Even though a lot of my doubts center on the Old Testament, that is what gives the New its validity.

Probably the most hard to swallow story for me other than what I mentioned previously, is in Judges 19. The story of the Levite and the concubine baffles me. This Levite hands over his wife or girlfriend to be gang raped because he does not have the manhood to protect her. I get it, she was not the most faithful girl. Then he finds her dead and starts a war with the tribe of Benjamin. So for this 1 concubine, all men women and children from Benjamin are killed except for 600 men. Then the rest of the Israelites realize they made a mistake and feel bad for them. So what do they do? Only what any good God fearing people would do, went and killed all the men women and children except for 400 virgins that they took and basically made sex slaves. I don't think these young girls ever thought of themselves as wives. They probably lived in fear and hatred the rest of their lives because they did in fact see their whole families get slaughtered.

Then Samson- caught 300 foxes(how long did that take) tied a torch between their tails 150 time(at least a day of nonstop tail tying) Killed 1000 men with a jawbone(they did not think to rush him at once with swords?) Told Delilah something the night before about his strength and the next morning it happened. Then she basically was mad at him for lying? So he gives in and tells her the truth after the third time of this? Sounds to me like he was either really dumb or wanted to die.

God created day(light) and night(darkness) day 1
Heaven earth and water day 2
VEGETATION, PLANTS, TREES day 3
Sun and Moon day 4(how can plants come before sun?)

All the people in the Bible ascended into heaven or sky(probably because they didn't know that there was an upper atmosphere and then space. They thought up above the clouds somewhere was heaven.

If God knows all and does not change His mind, why is Moses always reminding him of his promises so he does not destroy the Jews?

Tower of Babel- No reason not to let them build a tall building other than to find out that all they would have is a really tall building. They could not build high enough to reach heaven, only outer space where there would not be enough oxygen.

Before the ten commandments, were the Israelites killing each other in the street without any punishment? How many people did they kill afterward?

There is also rules for how to treat slaves. Why not have a rule to not have a slave? They could beat them until near death no problem. They would make a freed slave endure life long enslavement and beatings because he loves his family and does not want to leave his wife and children that are still PROPERTY of the owner.

When one says humanity gets morals from this, so do the Muslims that blow things up for similar beliefs in that of the Old Testament. EXACT SAME THING!
If you are a Christian you do have Jesus, but his legitimacy comes from the Old Testament. Many say that he was right there with God, or is the same one Being as the Old Testament God that dictated some of this.

This is the tip of my iceberg. I would rather think of God as a God of reason, that made this world with perfection and does not have to tinker with it all the time. I would rather think God is love, and mercy, and kindness than One who is quick to pull a trigger. Do these people in the Old Testament not have an equal place in God's heart? If they are so easily destroyed for no reason, why does He care about us?

 
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Confused
(no login)
207.201.205.202

Re: Why I lost faith

November 25 2013, 10:09 AM 

I don't expect any of these to be addressed because I know I probably come off as someone that will endlessly throw up every story in the Bible I don't like. I get that in the grand scheme of things, if the God of the OT is the way he is described I am kind of screwed that I didn't put blinders on and blindly believe without thinking about it. My main issue with most Christians is that I can't have an in depth conversation with them because they don't know it well enough, or seem to have the blinders I am talking about on. If I mentioned any of these questions or made any of these statements in church, I would maybe get an answer of sorts, but I would then be the anti Christ. I feel church is a place you just agree or stay quite.

When you look at Christian religions, or even religion in general, it seems to pander to comfort. while the church does do good in the community, how many people would come still service was held outside without a building in order to give everything to the needy? I get this is a bad example but you see my point. How fast did Madison fall apart after Vision 2000? It was believe in belief as long as there was a certain preacher, or comfort. I at least respect the people on here because you have a thought behind the questions I ask. Whether I agree or not does not matter as much as the knowledge I gain from someone else's perspective or thoughts about the same question I have. I also appreciate the fact that in your answers you explain and cite examples and don't give me the one word answer of not enough faith.

 
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Confused
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98.193.241.39

Re: Why I lost faith

September 14 2013, 8:00 PM 

I grew up in the church, went to a c of c schools from K- college. I have continued to attend church. In all this time, I have never had any classes that discussed how the bible we have came to be and how we know it is inspired. All my classes have jumped past that to it is inspired and if you don't believe that on faith alone, you burn.

In exodus 24 Moses takes Aaron and the elders up to see God. Then in chapter 32, Aaron is making a calf, without any objection. He didn't say, "hey we just saw all of these miraculous events, and the elders and I actually saw God." He just took their gold and made the calf. I don't get the rational of any of them, or why God would choose them for his people. If they saw all of this with their eyes and didn't believe, how can I on just a book I should take as true without question, when all evidence points the other way.

In the flood for instance, even if animals did find a way to walk across water from other continents to Noah, and even if they could all fit on the ark, all of the freshwater fish would have died and you would not have the diversity seen today in them.

The island of Hawaii is a volcanic chain of islands that are formed at a few feet a year as the tectonic plates move over a hotspot. There is no way, the northern islands with the rainforest were not created 6-7000 years ago.

While I don't believe the science we have now is 100% true, it evolves with new findings. Christians pray for the sick, if they are healed it was a miracle and if they die it was Gods plan. I know praying can cure cancer and other internal sickness one can't see, but it is odd that the same prayers have never healed a severed arm.

 
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