Re: Why I lost faith
|September 14 2013, 10:32 PM |
In the flood for instance, even if animals did find a way to walk across water from other continents to Noah, and even if they could all fit on the ark, all of the freshwater fish would have died and you would not have the diversity seen today in them.
The EARTH which was destroyed was the FRUITFUL PLACE: The Bible does not say that the waters covered the GLOBE but that place "between the rivers" where the story is set in the Babylonian Tablets. The mount Ararat which we know of is 16,854 feet high: if that mountain was covered then you would have about 3 miles of water over the whole earth. If the ark had been over 3 miles high we might have heard of Noah supplying air to all of those animals.
In this case the CREATION story is repeated and the WIND (not a spirit person) blew the water from off the earth or fruitful places. It did not blow 3 miles of water covering the whole GLOBE
The Creation story, the Flood Story and the Red Sea story have all of the same conditions of being empty and vain. The vain and empty story is also told of the condition of the Israelite nation: No light means not information and Darkness means dumb.
Job repeats part of the "creation" story and calls it a parable and the Spirit OF Christ warned about the Lying Pen of the Scribes and Paul warned about Jewish Fables (fabulas or religious rituals) and Old Wives Tales. Christ said that the Jews had a Covenant with Death and Hell and denied that they could be destroyed. So, pick out the accounts of the GOOD people to imitate.
So, think of the history of the Hebrew people like the history of the American people: We have the Civil-Military Complex including too many clergy. Running parallel to the WORLD is the Kingdom Within you as a spiritual kingdom. No one would expect future clergy to use the killing of maybe 85000 Iraq military as an APPROVED PATTERN to pass Judgment on God. At the same time the history is to be used for EDUCATION without letting its WORLD view influence our spiritual life.
Because earth does not mean the GLOBE it should not bother you. If you are a DISCIPLE you are not called upon to judge what it describes. God never ordered mass extermination whatever the Jewish Scribes taught.
Re: Why I lost faith
|September 15 2013, 10:51 PM |
The way I read it is earth is world. Otherwise there would be no need for anything bigger than a boat because animals, and even the evil humans would just get to higher ground.
Re: Why I lost faith
|September 15 2013, 11:38 PM |
Here are some notes
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Genesis 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good
That is why some definitions define ERETS or FIRMA as the fruitful places.
Genesis 8:3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.
So, the waters ran OFF the earth and into the SEA. That means that the SEA was not covered by water. That is just simple reading what the text says. Earth is
H776 erets eh'-rets From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.
terra (archaic tera , the dry land, the earth, opp. to the heavens, land, ground, soil
Scripture, I believe noted that we are speaking of pretty flat land. So if there was a sudden breaking up of the sources of water along with rain this would be like a tsunami and it would be too late to run. The Ark Settled on some high places but certainly not what we know as Ararat which would leave no place for the water to run off.
Lots of research has shown that the Persian gulf was not always connected to the Ocean. That would mean that the 'Garden of Eden' would now be underwater. The land breaking suddenly as it will again in places if global warming is true
Another strong evidence is that Robert Ballard has done lots of research in the Black Sea: structures still exist under the Sea. A break allowing sea water to flood the black sea is another historical fact.
In any event if you research the words of Vain and Empty and Dark and Light it clearly points to a spiritual darkness which we know often destroys. Everyone blames God: I know a few preachers who claim that God commanded them to add instruments to what they call a "worship service." And if your landscaping plants die you can be that you get nothing because it was a ACT OF GOD.
You don't have to get it all right but you have to be a seeker to be approved by God. When people are dogmatic they make certain that you will not be a student and have to depend on them.
The Boulder area proves that telling people to move out because a flood is coming has no meaning to the masses.
Re: Why I lost faith
|September 16 2013, 10:38 PM |
Is there any good books on inspiration of biblical writers and the history of the modern Christian bible? I guess my main problem is I see religion as a way to herd the sheep. Without belief tht writers were inspired by God, and God is the Hebrew God, it is a tall tale that was written after the fact to make it work. If the gospels were written years after Jesus death, any of the writers could have made up whatever prophecy they saw fit. Who back then, 30-70 years after the fact, were around to fact check?
So I would like to research the history of the bible, if any of you could suggest any good books, I would appreciate it.
Re: Why I lost faith
|September 16 2013, 11:11 PM |
If the gospels were written years after Jesus death, any of the writers could have made up whatever prophecy they saw fit. Who back then, 30-70 years after the fact, were around to fact check?
Inspiration is a problem: When the Bible records the CIVIL-MILITARY-CLERGY experiences it has VALUE if we can confirm it with secular history. The Bible is written for our learning. If we find that David lusted to bash out infants heads then THAT is what David thought: If he thought it I want to know what he thought but not being clergy I don't look for imitative patterns to follow.
Most of the Bible records what NOT TO DO: if you can learn eternal values from reading those great epics and let them train your spirit, then you can be a DISCIPLE: a disciple does not go to worship rituals but to the School of the Word. The Prophets and Apostles are singled out as the TEACHING RESOURCE for educating people: the result of rejecting those values is proven by a degenerated culture.
The command is to PREACH the Word by READING the Word for comfort and teaching. People have found books full of what they see as contradictions because they pick out a phrase and have no interest in being a Bible student.
Next, Recorded history proves that no ancient event of any significance did not have Scribes (reporters) taking down every word with great skill. We know of people who attended the events--Passover would bring in flocks--recorded what they understand from oral training, had men make many copies and sell them before the ink dried. These accounts existed in pericopes rather than long documents: that is why the New Testament is short on chronology.
When Paul wrote to the churches with documents intended TO BE READ, he does not just then compose the material but backs up to include context because they were intended to be preserved. Men like Peter finished HIS PART and left it for our "memory." When all of the eye- and ear-- witnesses finished their parts then prophetic or inspired material ceased. Luke was a skilled historian and collected what other people knew.
2Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
2Timothy 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.
2Timothy 4:12 And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus.
2Timothy 4:13 The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.
2Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
How can you read that and not be thrilled? Why would a A Paul and others know that when they took on the job "they went out to suffer and die." No one would do that on the basis of "suffering Servant" with nothing but His validation of His Words to recommend Him.
Jesus makes it clear that there are at least TWO CLASSES of people on the Earth. He came to seek and save LOST SPIRITS: Jesus didn't tolerate a Mega Institution but demanded that evangelists Preach the Gospel which is the Gospel of the Kingdom. Those OF FAITH or OF TRUTH need no convincing. Otherwise, the preacher was to leave and like a fisherman go throughout the world looking for the TINY FEW who were looking for the SIGN that their spirits were being rescued and translated. Those gladly received His Word were baptized and He translated their spirits into a heavenly kingdom: can't see it, smell it, feel it: you can only hear it if you are absolutely silent while searching the Word.
There is no way and no need to wrestle with people to make them HAVE FAITH.
Studying the Collection of New Testament Books
|September 16 2013, 11:18 PM |
Since you are wanting to know more about the relation between prophecy and the actual time of the Bible writings, you will want some scholarly commentaries, at least to get into the detail of each book in the Bible.
Your interest is a real plus, since you take the Bible seriously, and I think with some study you will see the great value the Bible has for the moral life. Your skepticism of the relation between prophecy and actual event in time, will as you study recede into the background, and you will see the great value of Bible teaching as well as prophecy. This is my prediction and my prayer.
One good way to do this is to consult some commentaries. There are two general types of advanced commentaries: (1) conservative, evangelical, but scholarly commentaries which accept inspiration and accuracy of the Scriptures but which do discuss historical development of Scriptures. The Word Commentaries are good at this. Perhaps you can consult your library or better to go to a Bible library
(2) A second type would be what is called "critical commentaries" which do entertain development from a historical point of view, but which at the same time say that some prophecies were written after the event had already taken place--these are what you are referring to. Even these commentaries, if they are to be balanced, will discuss the alternative explanation--that the events were prophecies BEFORE they take place. Perhaps the International Critical Commentaries would fit here.
In the end, both types of commentaries will get you where you want to go. They do cost money, so you may want to work for a less costly way to get there.
I believe that both conservative orthodox commentaries will uphold high morals by their very nature. It is likely that the critical commentaries will also support a very moral world view. Either set of commentaries, generally are for high morality and do not trivialize the teachings and prophecies of the scriptures, at least this is our hope.
for a brief view of critical scholarship. These may give some references that can lead you further.
Re: Why I lost faith
|September 14 2013, 8:20 PM |
It is also important that the sacrificial system operated by the tribe of Levi was related only to the FLESH and was not related to the Conscience which is equated to A holy spirit. These sacrifices and offerings were not commanded (Isa 1; Jer 7) but imposed on the Civil-Military-Clergy complex.
At the same time, from the wilderness onward the godly people were quarantined so that they could not come near or into these Civil sacrifices. They rested in their very isolated villages and the only activity was to Rest, Read and Rehearse the Word: Exodus 18 defines these sub-groups and elders down to as few as ten families.
There is a big difference between an external system of religion and a spiritual discipline in what we assemble to LEARN from Jesus and mutually confessing by teaching what He commanded to be taught.
Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Hebrews 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Hebrews 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, IMPOSED on them until the time of reformation.
Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the FLESH:
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your CONSCIENCE from dead works to serve the living God?
Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns [Tabernacle] of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hebrews 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin [offering] unto salvation.
You have to be responsible for your own children and anyone well acquainted by the Bible is simply going to have values even if they take time to discover them. You may have to look around to find a Bible-focused group which is A School of Christ.
Skhole , h, A.leisure, rest, ease, enjoy ease, keep quiet, II. that in which leisure is employed, ou kamn skhol I am not weary of talk, Id.Ion 276; esp. learned discussion, disputation,
2. a group to whom lectures were given, school, Arist.Pol.1313b3, Phld.Ind.Sto.10, D.H.Isoc.1, Dem.44, Plu.Per.35, Alex.7, etc.; s. ekhein to keep a school,
The priests were supposed to teach. Only a tiny part of the tithe went to to sacrifices but the priests and Levites had many civil duties.
Micah 3:11 The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Sep 14, 2013 8:24 PM|
Reply to Confused
|September 14 2013, 9:23 PM |
The issues you discussed concerning Biblical inspiration are not unique to Churches of Christ, but can be found in other church groups. So this is not a specific COC problem, but common to other churches as well. The conservative Baptist churches fail to answer the questions as well, but the "moderate" Baptists reject the literal explanation of the Scriptures. I would recommend that you read literature that deals with the historical process of the collection of Christian Scriptures, if you cannot get answers from the church you attend. Your preacher is failing to discuss the issue more fully, because of the explosive nature of the topic. But I would not trash the COC for this issue, since this issue is dealt with in all the "evangelical" churches as well as the moderate churches.
There are plenty of Bible students who have advanced concepts about how the Scriptures were collected. Yet among them most are Christians of great FAITH. They may not agree with the details about how the Scriptures were collected, nor in the details of the Great Flood, yet they retain faith.
It is a common problem to paste a narrow interpretation on the early chapters of Genesis, and on the basis of that to tell the whole world that one has lost FAITH. Their near-sighted understandings have led to loss of faith, and not the proper handling of the complete Word of God.
Your question about the believability that the persons in the wilderness saw all the powers of God, yet fell from faith, can be answered in various ways, without doubting that they really saw the signs of His power. Today, we see the creation and the blessings of God around us, and yet some doubt. This would be a parallel to the wayward Israelites following Moses. We are also surprised today when we see the wisdom of following God's moral codes is denied by numerous wayward people, who are drunkards, lazy, lascivious, and covetous. We wonder how they can ignore the teachings of God. These are just like the unbelieving Israelites following Moses and Aaron.
The Great Flood strains some people's believability, but what is so hard to believe about preparing for a flood and saving all available animals from the event. The Tigris-Euphrates river valley was a frequent place for flooding, and the failure of people to prepare for those events, is a denial of reality. Noah, in this sense, is a realist who recognizes that Godly people will prepare for the future, accepting the fact that those who shun God's will are likely to pay a high moral cost. That sinful people will reap the results of their disbelief is today's type of the Great Flood of Noah.
That the earth is only 6000 years old is a product of Bishop Usher's calendar, from his detailed calculations of the lineages of the patriarchs recorded pre-Noah. There are pros and cons about these dates, but how does that somehow cause one to lose faith? How does the singular belief that the earth is more than 6,000 years old lead one to general disbelief? It is not necessary to disbelieve God on the basis of a singular belief.
The failure of some sick to recover is not comforting to the sick, since it rules out the attitude of HOPE. Go to any hospital and tell the patients that God cannot heal them. You will be looked at as little better than an atheist. Doctors, those who through scientific methods seek to restore our health, are some of the greatest believers in faith. At the same time, doctors are some of the first to recognize the seeming hopelessness of some situations, and they themselves do not take necessary chemotherapy to cure themselves (less likely than others). But most of these same doctors continue to have FAITH.
Re: Reply to Confused
|November 25 2013, 3:31 AM |
The parallel between people seeing the miracles in the desert with Moses and us today is what I hear in class that makes my stomach churn. It is not the same. Not even kind of close to compare. They saw the same miracles that we see today if you want to call the fact that we are here a miracle. They got the added bonus of manna falling from the sky, water from rock, cloud of fire, etc... We get a story that we don't know how for sure we got it, but we want to believe it because we want to believe in meaning and life after death, and you can't prove it wrong until your dead and it doesn't matter anymore. Why does God reveal himself to certain people or in certain times and then expect everyone else to believe their story? How many false religions are out there because of this?
Doctors do not take chemo because they know their chances, and they know what chemo does to you, and they know they don't want to go through it. Some doctors give it to you because they think it might work, others do it because they can charge your insurance company a lot of money on your way out. There are instances where people are healed that are prayed for. But if it happens one out of a thousand times, was it prayer that did it, or just the fact that some people have better immune systems than others.
I am going to continue to read through the previous post and keep searching for now.
Re: Reply to Confused
|November 25 2013, 7:43 AM |
Confused is having a difficult time believing the accounts of various miracles in the Bible. If one is willing to believe, the Scriptures provide plenty of proof for all those miracles. Yet doubting Christians seem more likely to believe the miracles in the Old Testament than such miraculous facts as, for example, that Jesus is God, that Jesus is the Word, and that Jesus pre-dated His birth.
So for the doubting Christians, which is more difficult to believe--that manna literally fell from heaven to sustain the ancient Israelites in the wilderness, or that Jesus was the "living manna" Who literally came down from heaven to be born as a man?
Re: Reply to Confused
|November 25 2013, 7:00 PM |
We truly need to resist being a "confused" disciple of positivism, i.e. the idea that God must be discovered in a test tube or that He can be weighed and measured. According to positivism, since God cannot be seen, heard, measured, filtered, or proven scientifically then He must not exist.
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen" (KVJ), or "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (NASB). Hebrews 11:1.
Many have lived their lives obedient to God's will, following His code of ethics, and resolute and right-living until the end.
The alternative is a life of chance, dimmed expectations, and the attitude of approaching doom. Hope is restored to the Christian by the message of Christ, and is a characteristic not seen in the positive world.
Instead, positivism leads us to despair (opposite of hope) with threats from global warming, dimming of the son, fear of nuclear holocaust, and steady fear of degeneration of the body. Positivism sees the human body as just a accident of the arrangement of molecules and atoms, which evolved into "life." It can also lead to fascism, blood and soil, annihilation, militarism, and all the unfortunate results of elevating the human to the title of God.
Life in Christ, however, is the hope of the Christian.
Re: Reply to Confused
|November 25 2013, 7:28 AM |
Scripture implied that doctors are less likely to take chemotherapy if they have cancer. Does Scripture have some statistical sources that provide that information? How many doctors does Scripture know who have refused chemotherapy for themselves?
Re: Reply to Confused
|November 25 2013, 5:55 PM |
Here is one article that says doctors are more reluctant to do chemotherapy for themselves relative to others.
Faith does not necessarily imply that one thinks that he can be cured. Faith oftentimes also accepts the natural condition, and trusts in God that in the end God is ultimately in charge.
I heard the doctor of my father-in-law who died of cancer in three months, that if he had been the sick one, he would not have taken chemotherapy. He said that it weakened the body quickly, and actually made the patient die earlier. With no chemotherapy, perhaps the natural defenses of the body (and this could include faith) would lead to a longer life expectancy.
Patients want HOPE however, and this is a reason that chemotherapy is relatively heavily used.
Doctors say that sickness is in "remission" or has a "clean bill of health" and not that a person is cured.
My cousin who has stage two cancer is not taking chemotherapy, and she received a "clean bill of health."
Re: Reply to Confused
|November 26 2013, 3:24 PM |
I have personal reasons to hope that you two Oncologists are wrong: every cancer is different and improvements are made almost daily. When people with no money and no insurance get the best treatment I doubt that it is a mercinary rush for treatments or cures.
I think Donnie should remove the medical advice because CM does not want to get sued.
Re: Reply to Confused
|November 26 2013, 4:06 PM |
I'm certainly no oncologist; I don't know about Scripture. Whatever, I haven't seen anybody peddling "medical advice" around here. Scripture simply provided information that, when faced with cancer, a majority of doctors polled would not take chemo themselves. That's their choice; patients also have the same choice.
Dealing with one's sickness
|November 26 2013, 4:11 PM |
Our family has a long history of dealing with cancer. We are not naïve.
In some cases, the doctor does not recommend chemotherapy. In some cases, yes.
Is some cases, he or she leaves that decision to the patient, without lobbying.
This writer makes no recommendation other than to deal with sickness with all choices under consideration.
The patient is the chief decision maker, in all cases.
Pandering to Comfort [and Worship Entertainment]
|November 26 2013, 11:18 AM |
FYI (in case they've been overlooked), there were other messages published by the author of this thread on November 25, 2013 at these times -- 2:00 AM ... 2:17 AM ... 2:19 AM ... 3:14 AM.
On November 25 2013, 10:09 AM, Confused commented:
Hasn't this been the trend in the postmodern "Christian" era? Building massive or attractive worship centers? How remarkable is the question posed: "How fast did Madison fall apart after Vision 2000?" (We should have stressed that fact all along while the change agents' activities of transforming the congregation into a "Community Church" denomination were in progress in the 90s.)
When you look at Christian religions, or even religion in general, it seems to pander to comfort. while the church does do good in the community, how many people would come still service was held outside without a building in order to give everything to the needy? I get this is a bad example but you see my point. How fast did Madison fall apart after Vision 2000? It was believe in belief as long as there was a certain preacher, or comfort. I at least respect the people on here because you have a thought behind the questions I ask. Whether I agree or not does not matter as much as the knowledge I gain from someone else's perspective or thoughts about the same question I have. I also appreciate the fact that in your answers you explain and cite examples and don't give me the one word answer of not enough faith.
Thanks to Scripture and others who've responded very well.
CM Is a Religious Forum
|November 26 2013, 5:56 PM |
I think that the first mention of "chemotherapy" in this thread was in relation to a discussion of "faith" (or the lack of it) in conjunction with "healing." "Miracles 'still' happen today!" -- a misleading declaration and popularization by today's televangelists and "miracle workers." As if to say that today's "miraculous" healings are a continuation of and are no different from the miracles done during the time of Christ and the apostles.
(The author of this thread agrees with the known assertion about chemo treatment and the doctors, if they themselves were to face similar medical issues. The mention of "chemo" was only an example or a miniscule part of the overall discussion of faith-related matters contained in both the Old and New Testaments. But Dr. Bill felt the need to dwell on this particular medical subject [of all things] and to [perhaps unintentionally] divert [cf. post on November 25 2013, 7:28 AM]. Now we see what's happened.)
Let's return to the discussion of: "Why I lost faith." This is not a medical forum.
My contention is that the Bible is comprised of segments that deal with: the law, the psalms, the prophets, history (of BOTH good and evil occurrences), narratives of both good and evil characters, doctrine, etc. -- all in there for a reason.
Re: CM Is a Religious Forum
|November 26 2013, 6:25 PM |
The same alternative pages recommends cannabis to CURE cancer. The surveys are selling alternative CURES:
CBD Hemp Oil, Cannabidiol free shipping over $49
I lived with a family while attending college: both she and the preacher could cure everything up to a missing leg with Nutrilite. Now the prefered treatment of terminal cancer is Essential Oils. From my research in Sonar I can testify to the value of handling Castor Oil with bare hands.
I happen to have a neighbor, a retired Heart specialists who just finished Chemo. And a doctor friend in Murfreesboro took the cure--later died. So beware of absolutists.
I just heard today that Ben Ladin is still alive!
Re: CM Is a Religious Forum
|November 26 2013, 6:40 PM |
We have noted above that the Old Testament is a history of the Hebrew People and not a history of the universe. Because of musical idolatry the nation SPLIT:
God abandoned the Jacob-cursed Levites to worship the starry host and make instrumental noise as sorcerers performing exorcism connected to the Worship of the Starry host. If God abandoned them to worship the starry host then guess what gods they worshipped under the curse of the Civil-Military-Clergy complex.
The godly people attended the Church OF Christ (the Rock) from the wilderness onward: the Babylonish sacrificial system was not commanded by God (Christ says in Isaiah 1 and Jeremiah 7 and etc.) and it was Quarantined behind High Walls into which not even Jesus would have been allowed.
If people do not believe it may be because they spend to much time on the problem passages which are problems because most have missed out on the SPLIT between the Jewish (etal) Civil and Spiritual people who were informed by the PROPHETS being PREACHED each rest day by being READ.
There is the WORLD people who are not OF TRUTH or OF FAITH. Believers are not OF the World and when they HEAR the invitation they will gladly be baptized to become a Student of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles. They will be a STUDENT for learning and to try to be a judge of what they are taught FOR LEARNING and not for DOGMA.
John 7:14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.
John 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
So if you do not have faith then you do not have faith and you should "eat, drink and be merry." No one can argue one OF THE WORLD into FAITH which is HEARING the INVITATION or election.