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Re: CM Is a Religious Forum

November 27 2013, 6:01 PM 

If Bin Laden is still alive, then so is Elvis; both are hiding out together. happy.gif


Should this post be rated: irrelevant, unnecessary, to be ignored or lacking in depth?

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Nov 27, 2013 11:45 PM

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Re: CM Is a Religious Forum

November 28 2013, 12:27 AM 

Let's present both sides of the coin. My post is no more irrelevant, unnecessary, or lacking in depth than Ken's comment, "I just heard today that Ben [sic] Ladin is still alive!" which appears in his post of November 26 2013, 6:25 PM.


No, this is not about sides of a coin. I knew about Ken's final remark -- it was related to the preceding message in his post that you completely ignored. That one example Ken gave was sufficient. Your comment about "Elvis ... both are hiding out together" was "irrelevant, unncessary, to be ignored [and] lacking in depth."

Your "[sic]" is sickening -- it doesn't make you smarter than anyone else.

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Nov 28, 2013 1:02 AM

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Re: CM Is a Religious Forum

November 28 2013, 11:02 AM 

Donnie, I'm not surprised that you would defend Ken when he is obviously wrong and when he makes an obviously irrelevant, unnecessary statement that is lacking in depth. I quoted Ken verbatim, but when a quote includes a glaring error such as a misspelled name, then it is quite proper to flag that error with "[sic]." The Sunni militant was known as Osama bin Laden, not Osama ben Laden. Now since bin Laden was a Muslim, not a Jew, Ken's use of "ben" (meaning "son of" in Hebrew) might have given some readers the erroneous impression that bin Laden was a Jew. Of course, "bin" also means "son of," but in Arabic. Thus, it is important to use the correct name.

I gather that whenever you see "[sic]" following words in books, magazines, and newspapers, you write the editors and tell them all about how "[sic]" sickens you and how those editors are not smarter than anyone else. happy.gif


Bill, please stop insulting other posters.

This is not an editorial board. We do not engage in journalistic writing, reporting or editing here. I see your interest in editing "books, magazines, and newspapers" -- but this religious forum is not the place for that.

Your entire message is published. It is irrelevant; it is a form of diversion from the topic at hand.

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Nov 28, 2013 12:25 PM

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: CM Is a Religious Forum

November 28 2013, 11:50 AM 

Actually (as they say) both means son and the LADEN family is well known in the US. Osama the son of the Laden family has his roots in the same Arabic turf.

Saadiah ben Yosef Gaon or
Saadiah ibn Yosef Gaon

Actually, as they say, I always use Filius but I am afraid that people will THINK that when I say "the Filius of Abraham" I am calling him a young female horse.

I am so sorry to have troubled trouble and I would go jump off my 50 foot bluff, land on my head on a rock, and drown in a pool BUT my youngest daughter and 2 dogs are coming for a second pig out thanksgiving, so if it is acceptable with the good doctor, I will just let my Newfoundland lick me to death while I feed my diabetes.

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November 26 2013, 6:27 PM 

An overlooked quality of the Christian is "hope." Hope can be said to be the forerunner of faith; and it is the product of faith as well.

The love of God is scatter abroad to bring faith, since a loving God we can depend on. God's love also brings hope.

The Positivist ignores hope, often. He leaves people without hope.

Remember Ephesians 2:12. Paul says "remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world."

All Christians can have hope--both those that are well and those that are sick.

Paul links faith, hope, and love in 1 Corinthians 13:13.

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Medical and Moral Decisions

November 26 2013, 6:40 PM 

Yes, I've seen the same data from non-alternative sites.

Doctors find themselves in the same position, often, as preachers and Bible Scholars.

That is, their positions are related to practice in the profession.

Strangely enough, data show that the average atheist actually knows more Bible than the average Christian.

(There's a lot of work to do.)

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Medical and Moral Decisions

November 26 2013, 6:53 PM 

Deism was discredit because it gave no hope that God would ever intervene in a person's life. They believed that God created the world like a clock, and just went off and left it. It was up to man to solve his own problems, but God had placed His laws in motion, and man had to use rationale to solve his own problems.

Progressives believe that God wound up the clock but it ran down and simply was not keeping time with the changed culture (that culture: it is always a changing on us). Therefore, a "spirit" spoke to them and told them that they needed to keep time by Boulder: a standard running much faster than the God of the olden Bible could have even imagined.

Now, having said that, what are your opinions of the Absentee Landlord?

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Deism and the Future

November 26 2013, 7:23 PM 

That would be the belief of the Positivist, that today's humanity knows more than the Deist. Let's say that God did put things in working order and then left for vacation--which I reject--then with today's arrogance the Modernists would say that the old laws and rules no longer work in today's technological society.

The great mistake of the Modernist is similar to the Positivist, in that they both deny that "anything older is new again."

As sure as the Positivist, the Modernist, and the Futurist ignores the past, he is likely to leave out "hope." There is no pattern.

The teenage suicide rate could be related to hopelessness (despair) in that by the time they are graduated from high school, they have been bombarded with every kind of secularism. Many have no appreciation for the accomplishments of the past, and believe that today's generation are going to escape the mistakes of previous generations.

With the ascendance of information technology, cyber systems, and instant news; the past is a forgotten child. With no knowledge of the past they are much more likely to descend to the depths of hopelessness.

We can go further to link this false faith in today's new generation to the climate of constant and chronic change in some church organizations and worship. This is evident when a "worship leader" gets up to say "We're going to do things a little differently today."

Tell me, how can we improve on the Lord's Supper, from the bread and the cup? We can mangle that Communion by merging the bread with the cup (for example, one prayer) but by doing so we ignore the historical sacrifice separating doctrine (bread) from fruit of the vine (sacrifice). Jesus set an example, by taking the bread and the cup and blessing them separately. However, one may say, that this is not a "pattern." For those rejecting patternism, I want to ask one question, "Why is it, that Jesus, each time the Gospels take a meal, that he blesses it." In other words, the gospel writers had a pattern. Paul said that all things are good to eat (no forbidden foods) if they be received with thanksgiving and prayer. Here is another statement of a pattern.

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Cancer and deism

November 27 2013, 1:04 AM 

My thoughts on cancer and faith is if you believe in God having total control, why not only pray and let whatever happens, happen. Why turn to science then? If God can guide a surgeons hand, could he not boost one's immune system to kill the cancer without medical treatment, or alternative medicine.

Deism died out because there is not a church of a deist. It is not a thought one feels the need to meet on Sunday weekly to agree that there is a God that set things in motion. Let me state this, just because a belief in God or Jesus makes you feel fuzzy inside, or gives you a comforting thing to tell your child does not make it true. I only call my self a deist because I am agnostic on Jesus being God and I think the Old Testament that gives the reason for Jesus a fable. I do believe that something created all this and I lean toward God and Jesus in the hopes that the Bible is not. God's message to us without error , but or book of errors that explain the true concept of God the best a man can. Even if man had to embellish the whole thing. What the OT says, vs Jesus in Gospel, vs Paul are all so different.

I have been reading some other threads on here and I think you have a valid point for being upset with what happened to Madison CoC. I knew a few of the elders and I used to know Jason Shep years ago. None of them are bad people and the comments made about Jason's beliefs are the reason that I feel fine as a spectator. Ira North is dead. Steve Flatt used Madison as a stepping stone, and everything since seems to be a downward spiral. None of that influences my beliefs, I would still be confused just off the Bible. Then add in all the different religions and denominations that all know the only true God and way to worship. Take the next step, and even when you find a denomination, it might splinter another hundred time due to one verse. Outside of that you have science teaching billions of years, evolution, Pangea, etc. that all go against all the religions. There is a Creation Musem that displays children riding on dinosaurs which is a sad display of what faith has come to.

Church is a business. To survive it must grow. The elders are treating it as such. It seems they are attempting to do anything to attract more people which in turn give more money, which makes a larger building which gives them more power or ego. A preacher is only a paid messenger or parrot. If numbers go down, like any business he gets replaced. The elders want to be relevant in the religious world again like they were back when they did the Sunday night TV show back in the day. It probably gets under their skin that Madison is not a mega church like Rick Warren's.

Just to let you know, this site popped up second on Google when I was looking for Madison's website to possibly see about visiting. I have no desire to go now. Not because of this forum, just that this forum confirmed why I mentally checked out of the CoC. This is a better way for me to communicate than a face to face class. I would just sit in a class and stare at the wall the entire time.

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Deism and belief

November 27 2013, 8:51 AM 

Confused said "I do believe that something created all this and I lean toward God and Jesus in the hopes that the Bible is not God's message to us without error, but or book of errors that explain the true concept of God the best a man can." There is the view that the Bible "contains" the Word of God, but is not perfect in its details, but we do not endorse that. Belief in inerrancy and belief in God or Christ are not mutually inclusive, and some have stated their creed that the Bible is perfect in its original writing, or in the earliest manuscripts. Many who doubt the Bible here or there are also God-Believers.

I think the basic question you have to answer is what vehicle are we going to teach Biblical morality if we don't have the church? Rejection of the church is the rejection of the house that holds the moral teachings of the ages--teachings that have stood the test of time. I do think that one has to rightly divide the Word of God (Bible) in order to understand it, for sure. The Old Testament is filled with accounts of the Israelites slaying an entire village, men, women, and children. But sometimes the writer does not endorse the killing, but just describes it. Other times he endorses the killings.

These stumbling blocks from the Hebrew scriptures are undone or erased in the New Covenant, where the teaching is to love God and neighbor, and to turn the other cheek. I read that turning the other cheek does not include completely making oneself vulnerable without defense, but to not return violence for violence, or offense for offense.

You hit the nail on the head in paragraph 4. The treatment of the MCOC as a business is the greatest error. True leaders must be led by an appreciation for the truth of God, and how to transform lives. This must be done not as an imitation of what works in California, but what works in Madison. It must take into account the local skills and abilities. To place the High Growth Church Model from one of the most mixed up states in the union (California) is not the way to grow the church in Madison. That's being proved daily.

Your comment concerning Jason is apt, and I think this is true for the last preacher as well. The wellspring of church growth has to come from the pulpit [not from the singing], and Jason as well as Phil never were able to get their own vision onto the Madison scene, since they just "canned" the ideas from California. There are hundreds of persons at Madison that are not wanting to import ideas foreign to their religious past, and it will not work. So the importation leads to degradation and destruction. Phil was prompted to present Rick Warrens' theology, and Jason is presenting Judah Smith's can of worms. Where is the real "Phil Barnes?" Who is the real "Jason?" Those preachers who take the pulpit at Madison are under the finger of the "spiritual leaders", and it's not clear who that is, but these preachers may never "come into their own" since they are presented with an imported program, but there is no real "Phil" or "Jason."

The real irony is that after Phil had presented the program of the "spiritual leaders," he failed to get traction, and either labeled himself as falling short, or was so labeled. So he went on to greener pastures in Florida. Perhaps there, they will allow him to study the scriptures and get a clear definition of himself and his role.

In your first paragraph, you said "My thoughts on cancer and faith is if you believe in God having total control, why not only pray and let whatever happens, happen. Why turn to science then? If God can guide a surgeons hand, could he not boost one's immune system to kill the cancer without medical treatment, or alternative medicine." We are workman together with God, not that God will determine all unilaterally, but that we work with Him to accomplish His will. The importance of faith is critical here, since many doctors assume that faith will strengthen the human body. [Here I go being an "oncologist."] The linkage between the mind and the body is still up for discussion, and there are new avenues of academia that link the mind with the body. After all, Jesus said "Be made whole." "Whole" indicating the interaction of mind and body, or faith and body.

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Selective Faith

November 27 2013, 1:41 PM 

Scripture, since we're talking about faith, perhaps you would give us your views on the "selective faith" of some Christians. For example, some Christians readily accept the miraculous, biblical accounts of the burning bush, the Israelites' crossing the Red Sea, Jesus' birth, and His ascension into heaven. Yet those same Christians balk at or flatly deny other passages, for example, where Jesus said that He "came down from heaven" and would "ascend up where He was before" (meaning back into heaven where He originally came). In other words, some Christians have selective faith; they selectively accept in the Bible what makes sense to them and deny what the Bible says about other issues. Any thoughts about why some Christians are so selective?

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Selective Faith

November 27 2013, 2:13 PM 

When God SENDS something from heaven that does not mean that the SENT existed in the SPIRIT World which has NO PERSONS OR PEOPLE. It is idolatry to think of God existing the the form of a man.

When God moved Jesus to the THRONE (not a place but an office) He is still called THE MAN JESUS CHRIST and God MADE Jesus of Nazareth TO BE both lord and Christ.

God sent ALL spirits from heaven but we are not part of a TRINITY which is the only object of trying to make Jesus of Nazareth an ETERNAL member of the godhead. God, FROM HEAVEN, sent Jesus as the SEED (sperm) of Abraham which would be just silly if He sent Jesus from Heaven. Jesus was in the DNA of Abraham before He was born and HEAVEN is up in the air or CLOUDS and that is where they say Jesus go: they assuredly could not see Jesus enter into the Spiritual Dimension.

The Spirit OF Christ warns about the Lying Pen of the Scribes: we are not called to pass judgment because it is LAWFUL for God to use PARABLES: Jesus said that He did just that to KEEP those OF THE WORLD from understanding: it worked pretty well, huh?

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Re: Selective Faith

November 27 2013, 4:14 PM 

Ken wrote: "It is idolatry to think of God existing [in] the form of a man." Apparently the Scriptures do not think it is idolatry for God to exist as a man:

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." (Matt. 1:21-23 KJV).

Since Jesus is Emmanuel, or God with us, then God as Jesus dwelt in the form of a man among men.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Selective Faith

November 27 2013, 5:01 PM 

Jehovah is present with us when Emmanuel or his designed ELOHIM is with us because Jehovah gave Jesus the full authority to exercise His will. Jesus was not Jehovah nor Jehovah INSIDE of a small Jewish body.

Isaiah 7:11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
Isaiah 7:12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
Isaiah 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

This was a SIGN given to AHAZ while he was still living.

H6005 immânûêl im-maw-noo-ale' From H5973 and H410 with suffix pronoun inserted; with us (is) God; Immanuel, a name of Isaiahs son:Immanuel.

H410 EL ale Shortened from H352 [Chief, Power] ; strength; as adjective mighty;

There are many ELs but Jehovah is the only TRUE El. Only Jehovah is the Almighty. Jesus was A GOD in the same sense that Moses was an Elohim. Moses said that He would be a PROPHET like Him (Elohim) but did not say that He would be JEHOVAH.

They did not CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL because he was not Isaiah's son born BACK THEN.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Joshua was called Jesus "Jehovah-Saves" identifying the EVENT or purpose. Joshua failed to give Israel Rest but the antitype, Jesus would give us REST.

Jesus fulfilled the same TYPE in that He would ave HIS people from their sins. God made him to be LORD (Kurios) and not HIMSELF or Jehovah (Theos, the Almighty Who does not have flesh and blood and bones and is not about 5 foot four inches looking like a Jew.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Nov 27, 2013 5:04 PM

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Selective Faith

November 27 2013, 3:16 PM 

I can't add much to this discussion, since it has been going on for years. The Nicene people also used this belief as a wedge issue against those who disagreed.

Selectivity is common in belief and practice. For example, why not the Holy Kiss, and Footwashing, but Singing? We need to reason from details of scripture to conclusions. Conclusions should not trump over detail, since detail must support conclusions.

Even as the Golden Calf was raised in the Wilderness, so our singular beliefs can be exalted above the clear evidence of the Word. It is hard to overturn our conclusions, at least until an overwhelming number of details do not fit the conclusions.

"Selective literalism" refers to taking some passages literally, while passages we don't agree with are taken figuratively. A perfect example is the nature of the kingdom. When Jesus said that the twelve apostles would sit on thrones judging the nation of Israel, amillenial people take that figuratively. Millenialists take it literally.

If the overriding conviction is that there are no human personalities in heaven, then it would follow that there is a difference between the earthly Jesus and the eternal Word. To convince someone that there are human personalities in heaven would require a change in the stance concerning the Godhood, to believe that there are human persons in the Godhead. In other words, if you say that the Godhead is not human, then there would be no humans in that Godhead. I think that some think to recognize the earthly Jesus as the pre-existing Word, makes the Godhead human, and might lead to Trinitarianism. Muslims make that charge, that Christianity is not monotheistic. Some professing Christians are Unitarians, some Ditarians, and other Trinitarians. Philip's suggestion "If you believe with all you heart you may," would be the sufficient requirement to being a Christian, and "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." See Acts 8:37. Our restoration tradition would lead us to leave this topic to individual conviction--i.e. the belief about the nature of the Christ.

1 Corinthians 15 is helpful in this regard, since Jesus is referred to as the "first fruits"--the first after which many may follow. Paul continues to say in 1 Corinthians 15:35-41. The "body" that we are given is not the same flesh as we have on earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is greater than the glory of earthly bodies. The heavenly glory (i.e. the stars) are apparently looked at by Paul as above the glory of earthly bodies (i.e. the earth, and sun).

Paul goes on to say that "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." It may be critical here that Paul refers to a "spiritual BODY," and this is what moderns would call an oxymoron, or an irony. How can there be a "spiritual body?"

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Re: Selective Faith

November 27 2013, 4:38 PM 

When Jesus said He "came down from heaven" and would "ascend up where He had been before," those with selective faith would say Jesus was just speaking "figuratively," that He didn't literally come down as He and the Scriptures said He did, and He literally didn't ascend as He said He would as and the Scriptures said He did.

It sounds like those Christians with selective faith are selectively atheistic at heart. They're trying to juggle the "best" of Christianity and atheism. If we cannot serve God and mammon, which are two opposite ends of the spectrum, then we certainly cannot hold Christian beliefs and atheistic beliefs at the same time, for they are also at opposite ends of the spectrum.

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Selective Faith

November 28 2013, 1:10 AM 


I could not have expressed it any better when Scripture said:
If the overriding conviction is that there are no human personalities in heaven, then it would follow that there is a difference between the earthly Jesus and the eternal Word. To convince someone that there are human personalities in heaven would require a change in the stance concerning the Godhood, to believe that there are human persons in the Godhead. In other words, if you say that the Godhead is not human, then there would be no humans in that Godhead. I think that some think to recognize the earthly Jesus as the pre-existing Word, makes the Godhead human, and might lead to Trinitarianism.

Just a reminder: this thread is not about YOUR favorite topic -- the pre-existence of Jesus before Jesus' birth.

If you really want to pursue this issue, I would redirect you to the thread you yourself initiated: "Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth." There are NUMEROUS UNANSWERED questions still waiting for you.

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Madison's Creed

November 28 2013, 8:19 AM 


We believe in the Eternal Godhead who has revealed Himself as ONE God existing in THREE persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; distinguishable but inseparable. (Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14).

I'm not sure how they decided what "we" believe. Did the shepherd's take a vote? Did the "spiritual leaders" decide this? Did they let their worship leader copy this from The City Church, like much of the rest seems to come from?

Did they pray and the Spirit tell them? Did God tell them?

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Madison's Creed

November 28 2013, 12:15 PM 

WE meaning John Mark Hicks and the LU bunch go beyond the pale by saying that there are three separate beings, each has their own "centers of consciousness" and each has their particular talent and assignments: they now live under the Spirit People dispensation defined differently in the Acts of the Holy Spirit. They are ONE in that they "hold communion" with one another and they are all one in purpose.

Thesis: John Mark Hicks: The Christian experience of God is a communion with the Father, Son and Spirit. The presence of the Spirit is our communion with the Father through the Son (2 Corinthians 13:14; Ephesians 2:18, 22). Consequently, the very structure of salvation within Pauline texts (as an example) is triune (three-fold). Here are a few representative texts: 1 Corinthians 12:4-6: the same Spiritthe same Lordthe same God.

2Cor. 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ,
and the love of God,
and the communion of the Holy Spirit,
be with you all. Amen.

Even without all of those Doctorates of the law, the word has nothing to do with a FRIENDLY ARGEEMENT BUT:

-Commncto , I. a making common, imparting, communicating
Ar.Pl.39. II. in rhet., a figure of speech, = anakoinsis, in accordance with which one turns to his hearers, and, as it were, allows them to take part in the inquiry, Cic. de Or. 3, 53, 204; Quint. 9, 1, 30; 9, 2, 20 and 23.
sermonis, id. Att. 1, 17, 6: nominum,

The Spirit OF God is the MIND of God and when the ONE GOD breathes (spirit), the SON articulates or speaks the words.

The "testimony" or Christ IS the Spirit of prophecy.

Rev. 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me,
See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God:
for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Therefore, the communion of the Holy Spirit is that which Jesus Christ communicated to the Apostles.

The apostles treat the Word of Christ as The Spirit
That is because Jesus said:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
the words that I speak unto you,
they are spirit, and they are life.

That is why, not even there founder, John Calvin agrees that the SPIRIT of Christ speaks "beyond the sacred pages." If we have the mind or spirit OF Christ (bestowed at baptism) we know that the WORD is SPIRIT. John Calvin said that no one can be saved without the DIRECT OPERATION OF THE SPIRT.

1. God gave us the Scriptures without which we would not know about God. Hicks having the "spirit" communicating to him may be the reason he writes opinions and not Scripture.
2. God sent out evangelists (commanded them) to go out and teach that which He commanded to be taught.

He said that anyone who thinks that they hear the SPIRIT outside of the Scriptures is a FANATIC. But, then, you can be an expert faith-onlyite Phd without ever having read any original Calvin.

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John Calvin

November 28 2013, 8:29 PM 

If I understood you correctly, John Calvin says that the Direct Operation of the Holy Spirit comes from hearing the Word.

Do you have any direct quotes from Calvin on this.

This I would say is a statement that the direct operation of the Spirit is either (1) prompted by the Word, or is the (2) effect of the Word itself.

Is either (1) or (2) what you are saying?

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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