Tertullian and DocetismSeptember 14 2013 at 12:40 PM
|Ken Sublett (Login Ken.Sublett)|
from IP address 188.8.131.52
Origen against Celsus Chapter LXX.
If Celsus, indeed, had understood our teaching regarding the Spirit of God, and had known that "as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God,"361 he would not have returned to himself the answer which he represents as coming from us, that "God put His own Spirit into a body, and sent it down to us; "for God is perpetually bestowing of His own Spirit to those who are capable of receiving it, although it is not by way of division and separation that He dwells in (the hearts of) the deserving. Nor is the Spirit, in our opinion, a "body," any more than fire is a "body," which God is said to be in the passage, "Our God is a consuming fire."362 For all these are figurative expressions, employed to denote the nature of "intelligent beings" by means of familiar and corporeal terms. In the same way, too, if sins are called "wood, and straw, and stubble," we shall not maintain that sins are corporeal; and if blessings are termed "gold, and silver, and precious stones,"363 we shall not maintain that blessings are "corporeal; "so also, if God be said to be a fire that consumes wood, and straw, and stubble, and all substance364 of sin, we shall not understand Him to be a "body," so neither do we understand Him to be a body if He should be called "fire." In this way, if God be called "spirit,"365 we do not mean that He is a "body." For it is the custom of Scripture to give to "intelligent beings" the names of "spirits" and "spiritual things," by way of distinction from those which are the objects of "sense; "as when Paul says, "But our sufficiency is of God; who hath also made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit; for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life,"366 where by the "letter" he means that "exposition of Scripture which is apparent to the senses,"367 while by the "spirit" that which is the object of the "understanding." It is the same, too, with the expression, "God is a Spirit." And because the prescriptions of the law were obeyed both by Samaritans and Jews in a corporeal and literal368 manner, our Saviour said to the Samaritan woman, "The hour is coming, when neither in Jerusalem, nor in this mountain, shall ye worship the Father. God is a Spirit; and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."369 And by these words He taught men that God must be worshipped not in the flesh, and with fleshly sacrifices, but in the spirit. And He will be understood to be a Spirit in proportion as the worship rendered to Him is rendered in spirit, and with understanding. It is not, however, with images370 that we are to worship the Father, but "in truth," which "came by Jesus Christ," after the giving of the law by Moses. For when we turn to the Lord (and the Lord is a Spirit371 ), He takes away the veil which lies upon the heart when Moses is read.
Celsus accordingly, as not understanding the doctrine relating to the Spirit of God ("for the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"372 ), weaves together (such a web) as pleases himself,373 imagining that we, in calling God a Spirit, differ in no respect in this particular from the Stoics among the Greeks, who maintain that "God is a Spirit, diffused through all things, and containing all things within Himself." Now the superintendence and providence of God does extend through all things, but not in the way that spirit does, according to the Stoics. Providence indeed contains all things that are its objects, and comprehends them all, but not as a containing body includes its contents, because they also are "body,"374 but as a divine power does it comprehend what it contains. According to the philosophers of the Porch, indeed, who assert that principles are "corporeal," and who on that account make all things perishable, and who venture even to make the God of all things capable of perishing, the very Word of God, who descends even to the lowest of mankind, would be-did it not appear to them to be too gross an incongruity375 -nothing else than a "corporeal" spirit; whereas, in our opinion,-who endeavour to demonstrate that the rational soul is superior to all "corporeal" nature, and that it is an invisible substance, and incorporeal,-God the Word, by whom all things were made, who came, in order that all things might be made by the Word, not to men only, but to what are deemed the very lowest of things, under the dominion of nature alone, would be no body. The Stoics, then, may consign all things to destruction by fire; we, however, know of no incorporeal substance that is destructible by fire, nor (do we believe) that the soul of man, or the substance of "angels," or of "thrones," or dominions," or "principalities," or "powers," can be dissolved by fire.
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.108.40.206 on Oct 4, 2013 12:40 PM|
Re: Church Fathers: Trinity and the Holy Spirit
|September 14 2013, 2:54 PM |
So how many Holy Spirit-Vs-Trinity threads does this make now--ten or twelve? I've lost count.
Re: Church Fathers: Trinity and the Holy Spirit
|September 14 2013, 3:24 PM |
Why are you responding?
The answer: as many times as necessary -- more than your count of 12 -- "the half has never yet been told." There is a song about that based on Scripture.
Please stop complaining -- since you already know it all. You're the only one whining. And I've lost count of it.
Re: Church Fathers: Trinity and the Holy Spirit
|September 14 2013, 4:09 PM |
Origen, Latin in full Oregenes Adamantius (born c. 185, probably Alexandria, Egyptdied c. 254, Tyre, Phoenicia [now r, Lebanon]), the most important theologian and biblical scholar of the early Greek church. His greatest work is the Hexapla, which is a synopsis of six versions of the Old Testament.
The Folly defined by John Mark Hicks says that he does not IGNORE the text but he uses THEOLOGY to write his flood of theology: Jesus calls them "doctors of the law who take away the key to knowledge." As Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES meaning self-speakers, singers and instrument players.
The Church Fathers are used by preachers and scholars to defend the Blessed Holy Trinity meaning three separated persons each with their unique abilities and each have their own center of consciousness (each has a spirit). They use the same scholars to defend instrumental music. There comes a time when people have told the same lie over and over by collecting all of the "spirit" passages, ASSUMING that spirit defines a PEOPLE without ever having read the context: they have no need to fleece and threaten people who are not ANTI-Christ which means ANTI-logos. Once the brain has become hard-wired by the master SEDUCER, it may be impossible not to become a KNEE JERK with no brain cells or connections left to comprehend.
No one but the people who scan the text to "git up my sermon early Sunday morning" could possibly see "spirit" defined and make it into ANOTHER GOD PERSON.
Scripture puts WIND and FIRE in the same category.
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits [WINDS], and his ministers a flame of FIRE.
pneuma , atos, to, (pne) blast, wind, II. [select] breathed air, breath, flatulence divine inspiration,
Ecclesiastes 8:5 Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise mans heart discerneth both time and judgment.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
1Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
anakrin , A.examine closely, interrogate, 2. inquire into, judged
I am quite convinced that about half of the Churches of Christ and the MASSED MULTITUDES cannot spiritually discern SPIRIT because they were baptized to GET INTO THE CHURCH and not BAPTIZED to get A holy spirit so they can be enrolled in the School of Christ. We Disciples or Students don't DO and don't PAY for people to PERFORM WORSHIP SERVICES when Jesus said that the KINGDOM does not come with OBSERVATION or Religious services doing act to pay some kind of debt.
We will post the Church Fathers and eleminate all of the whining. Everyone is welcomed to post on topic.
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Sep 14, 2013 4:24 PM|
Justin Martyr on the WORD of God made personal in Jesus Christ
|September 14 2013, 10:02 PM |
Dialogue of Justin Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew
born c. 100, , Flavia Neapolis, Palestine [now Nabulus]
died c. 165, , Rome [Italy]; feast day June 1
Chapter LXI-Wisdom is Begotten of the Father, as Fire from Fire.
"I shall give you another testimony, my friends," said I, "from the Scriptures,
.....that God begat before all creatures a Beginning, 220
.....[who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself,
.....who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, >
..... now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God,
.....and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion
.....He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun).
For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father's will,
and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will;
.....just as we see happening among ourselves:
..... for when we give out some word, we beget the word;
.....yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us,
.....when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire,
.....which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same;
.....and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself,
.....not diminishing that from which it was kindled.
The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, will bear evidence to me, when He speaks by Solomon the following: "If I shall declare to you what happens daily, I shall call to mind events from everlasting, and review them. The Lord made me the beginning of His ways for His works.
Wisdom has much the same meaning as Spirit. Wisdom is a SHE and Spirit is a HE but neither are BEINGS in any sense.
Origen Part A
|September 15 2013, 4:06 PM |
Origen on Celsus formated
Origen Celsus Part B
|September 15 2013, 4:34 PM |
Origen against Celsus Part C
|September 15 2013, 8:54 PM |
Origen Celsus Part D
|September 16 2013, 4:09 PM |
Tatian to the Greeks: the LOGOS or WORD
|September 16 2013, 6:12 PM |
Part of the brutal attack against Christ and His Church is to say that because of "postmodernism" people are no longer to learn by WORDS but by EXPERIENCES. And, if you pay them enough, they will provide the EXPERIENCES which Christ absolutely SILENCED so that the WORD can have its creative power.
The Word they deny is the LOGOS or the Regulative Principle of all things. That does not stop Phds from mocking the the notion that THEY need commands, examples or inferences.
Athenagoras and the Trinity
|September 16 2013, 9:46 PM |
Athenagoras Part A: lived in the 2 Century: Reading the Church fathers is the best way to PURGE the teachings of the 20th century promulgated by people trained to make sermons which violates the direct command of the Spirit OF Christ. I will add more of the universal repudiation of the neo-trinity. Reading these comments might be considered sermons for anyone wishing to read the Bible.
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 18.104.22.168 on Sep 16, 2013 10:26 PM|
Theophilus Trinity is God and His Spirit and Wisdom and Word
|September 17 2013, 6:50 PM |
Theophilus Denying Trinity.
We have shown, I believe, that God speaks ANTHESIS: ALL pagans believed in a family which must have a father, mother (spirit) and infant son still ruled by the mother goddess.
Jesus, on the other hand, claims that ALL of the authority imagined by the pagans is VESTED in or FILLS Jesus Christ. God used ONE BEING as the image of the unity and uniqueness of Jehovah our God. Jesus didn't claim to be Jehovah or another god IN ADDITION: He said that if you have seen ME then you have seen the Father and the Spirit. Jesus gelled the Breath of God into audible Words.
We have listed some of the historic scholars who warn about the pagan influence which sought to diminish the Full Authority of Jesus of Nazareth. For those who cannot understand the Preposition Fallacy, they prove that SPIRIT is not and cannot be defined as a separate person any more than can Wisdom, Wind and Fire. The words for spirit are WIND or BREATH making it absolutely impossible for those OF FAITH or OF TRUTH to make God's Breath into a REQUIRED separate god being in order to articulate WORDS.
Theophilus invented the TRINITY concept and being Bible Literate spoke of God, His Word and His Wisdom. We have quoted Psalm 33 to prove why the Jews were not polytheists: God Breathed to Speak.
Again, note that Theophilus proves that His Word is the Governing Principle. We have noted that LOGOS is defined as the Regulative Principle. One of the MARKS of those who invent trinity so that THEY can claim that the spirit told them what others must do to keep him in comfort, is that they make a HUGE RATTLING NOISE even by Phds mocking the Regulative Principle. That is two marks to identify the ANTICHRISTS. If they will lie, cheat and steal the church house of widows they would do anything they could do without going to prison.
Tertullian and Docetism
|October 4 2013, 12:59 PM |