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Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 12 2013 at 4:02 PM
Bill  (no login)
from IP address 74.179.246.91

In several other threads, there have been arguments stating that Jesus did not exist at all until He was born on earth some 2,000 years ago. The Scriptures say otherwise:

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:12-13 KJV).

Jesus says that, just as He had first come down from heaven to be on earth, so He will ascend back into heaven.

"As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever" (John 57-58 KJV).

As the manna came down from heaven, Jesus describes Himself as the living bread that "came down from heaven" to be on earth.

"When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" (John 6:61-62 KJV).

Jesus tells us that He will ascend back into heaven "where he was before." Before when? Before He was born as a human being on earth. The verses above are especially important, for they unequivocably prove that Jesus had lived in heaven with God before Jesus came to earth to be born as a human being. When the Word was made flesh, Donnie's "Jesus was made Jesus" became a reality. Even though Jesus was born on earth around 2,000 years ago, He had long lived with God in heaven before then.

The Scriptures have spoken. Let them put an end to this matter.





==============================

"No Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth."

That we may refer to as the opposing argument.

First of all, please notice that the above premise has not been altered. It is not generally the policy of this forum to modify the title nor the contents of an original message being used as the premise of the entire thread. (Unless, of course, the premise is unclear, and it needs further explanation.)

Due to the manner in which the "title" of the thread as initially published conveyed the message of a particular dogma -- which is debatable -- it is not our intent to leave the reader the impression that it is the dogma this website endorses.

We are here to discuss.


ConcernedMembers


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Oct 27, 2013 9:25 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 12 2013, 4:46 PM 

We all came from God: we are strangers and sojourners on this earth.

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
..... and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


We are all flesh and out flesh will see corruption. Jesus is an exception in that he did not decay.

Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him,
.....that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh,
.....he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ,
.....that his soul was not left in hell,
.....neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.


We are are SPIRITS given by God but our Body is a temporary "tent."

2Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
.....we have a building of God, an house not made with hands,
..... eternal in the heavens.
2Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan,
.....earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
.....not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
2Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
.....who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that,
.....whilst we are at home in the body,
.....we are ABSENT from the Lord:


We are ABSENT from out SPIRITUAL home and clothed with flesh. We groan because of our lost estate: only a few will make it back home.

We are STUDENTS of God through Jesus Christ and only those who are SONS because they OBEY will be made holy and suited for a spiritual body. That's why the devil will be working so hard in the morning to keep you FROM the word.

Satan has his OWN spirits.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.63.152

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 12 2013, 5:10 PM 

Ken, you're not denying what Jesus said, that He "came down from heaven" to be on earth, are you? The verses I cited absolutely prove that Jesus existed and lived with God in heaven before Jesus was ever born as a human being on earth. Those verses shatter any preconceived notions that you and Donnie may have had about Jesus in that matter. You cannot deny what Jesus told us about Himself.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

It Was "the Word" (LOGOS) that Was "IN THE BEGINNING"

October 13 2013, 7:18 PM 

There is no denial in the expression "came down from heaven" as an occurrence. But "coming down from heaven" does not have the same meaning as "existing."

The only correct portion of your statement above is that "Jesus was ever born as a human being on earth." That was it. The rest of it is fallacious deductive reasoning.

Nothing is contradictory when the first chapters of John is taken in context. Your quote is from John 3:12-13 -- but that needs to be understood in conjunction with John 1:1,2,14.

Remember:

(1) That it was "the Word" (LOGOS) IN THE BEGINNING;
(2) That "the Word" was with God;
(3) That "the Word" was God (original text says: "God was the Word.")

Take a look at (3) alone where the original text says, "God was the Word." Now, try substituting your preconceived notion of "the Word" being "Jesus." Plus, remember that there is ONLY ONE GOD.

You would come up with "And God was Jesus." How does that sound to you?

Let's stay with what the Scripture says: It was "LOGOS" that was in the beginning with God; it was "LOGOS" that was God. Then, it was LOGOS that was made flesh (John 1:14).

So, it was "LOGOS" (the Word) that was in the beginning [in existence] who came down from heaven [an event or occurrence] to be made flesh [a transformation] and become Jesus [now only beginning his existence].

Key word for the day: CONTINUUM --

(1) LOGOS was in the beginning [there was no "Son of God" and no "Lord and Christ" -- not yet] ... until 2 millenniums ago when ...

(2) LOGOS [the Word] was made flesh. Jesus, was made both Lord and Christ by God the Father.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.63.152

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 12 2013, 5:35 PM 

Ken, I don't know why you're citing so many verses OTHER than what Jesus explicitly told us about His coming "down from heaven" to be on earth. Do you think the verses you cite in some way "cover up" what Jesus told us? Why don't you and Donnie just admit that your preconceived notions about Jesus in this matter were completely wrong and way out there in left field? Just be glad that Jesus has always been eternal since time immemorial and "came down from heaven" to earth.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

"Let fire come down from heaven"

October 13 2013, 7:58 PM 

We find that expression in II Kings 1:10,12.

Are you assuming that the fire's coexistence with God was since the beginning?

 
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Bill
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74.179.63.152

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 12 2013, 4:58 PM 

Some will still argue that because the name "Jesus" doesn't appear anywhere in the Old Testament, then Jesus didn't exist in heaven during Old Testament times. That's not surprising, because Jesus' time to come to earth had not arrived. But unless people are totally stubborn and blatantly deny Scripture, we cannot overlook the FACT that Jesus Himself told us in the Scriptures cited above that He "came down from heaven" to be on earth, but only at God's chosen time. Jesus lived in heaven with God for how long before His birth on earth? Since time immemorial. Therefore, the argument about Jesus not being in the Old Testament has no merit.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

The "Son of God" in the Old Testament

October 13 2013, 7:48 PM 

You say: "Jesus lived in heaven with God" -- any proof?

I didn't realize that it was Jesus, instead of "the Word" (LOGOS), that was IN THE BEGINNING with God.

I also didn't realize that:

(1) Jesus lived in heaven with God -- that was Life No. 1;
(2) Jesus lived on earth [again] with Joseph and Mary -- that was Life No. 2.

Two lives?

No, Bill, it is correct to say that Jesus or Christ or Jesus Christ does not appear in the Old Testament. NEITHER DOES THE "SON OF GOD."

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: The "Son of God" in the Old Testament

October 13 2013, 8:15 PM 

That's true: in the Old Testament God spoke through the PROPHETS. The prophets were guided by the Spirit OF Christ. However, in these last days God speaks through His SON. His Creative Son, according to the trinity inventors was God's WORD. When you breath spirit you beget a Son of yourself. This Word was the creative force. Shades of string and membrane theories.

If Jesus had been God's SON then He would have spoken through HIM and not the Prophets.

Now, God speaks through the WORDS of Christ which ARE Spirit and Life. If God is not capable of putting His Words or Spirit or Mind into written text, why would anyone be silly enough to pay for someone with no Biblical role or dole to write THEIR substitute scripture: that was the pattern of the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites as self-speakers, singers and instrument players.

Paraphrasing Paul, fools love to be fooled.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 13 2013, 2:32 PM 

[linked image]

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.249.241

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 13 2013, 5:15 PM 

As Jesus said, He "came down from heaven" to be on earth. God called Him into EARTHLY existence when He was born. Yet from the Scriptures, Jesus obviously existed spiritually with God in heaven long before Jesus came to earth as a human being. So, Ken, lets' not try to twist the Scriptures to fit your preconceived notion that Jesus didn't exist AT ALL until He was born on earth. The Scriptures have proven your notion null and void. The best thing for you to do is to own up to your error and believe what Jesus said about Himself in the Scriptures. Of course, it's your prerogative to deny what Jesus said, but you would be setting a very bad example for yourself and this site.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 13 2013, 9:24 PM 

Bill says: "Jesus obviously existed spiritually with God in heaven long before Jesus came to earth as a human being."

No. There is ONLY ONE GOD.

In the beginning was "the Word" (LOGOS -- spoken, uttered, articulated, said).

In the beginning "the Word" (LOGOS) was with God.

In the beginning "the Word" was God; in the original text: "God was the Word."

Therefore, "the Word" and "God" are interchangeable.

What "GOD SAID:" was evident at creation:
-- GOD SAID: "Let there be light" ... and that was Day 1.
-- GOD SAID: "Let ..." and that was Day 2.
-- GOD SAID: "Let ..." and that was Day 3.
-- GOD SAID: "Let ..." and that was Day 4.
-- GOD SAID: "Let ..." and that was Day 5.
-- GOD SAID: "Let ..." and that was Day 6.

The PARALLEL: John 1 also speaks of: (1) "IN THE BEGINNING" as well as of "THE LIGHT."

This time "the Word" [LOGOS--spoken} was made flesh. "The Word" BECAME Jesus (per John 1:14).

Bill, you really have a "pre-existing" issue.

What occurred was a REAL TRANSFORMATION:

(1) FROM: "the Word" [LOGOS] in the beginning
(2) TO: being made FLESH [becoming Jesus] 2000 years ago.

Otherwise, you will have to live with this: that Jesus BECAME Jesus.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.15.179

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 14 2013, 12:10 AM 

Donnie, focus on John 3:12-13, John 6:57-58, and John 6:61-62 for a while. In view of Jesus having said that He "came down from heaven" to be on earth and that He would "ascend up where He was before," that's proof enough for most discerning Christians that Jesus had lived in heaven with God before coming to earth. Sorry, Donnie, but your idea that Jesus didn't exist AT ALL until He was born on earth some 2,000 years ago has been destroyed...by Jesus Himself. I really don't understand why you want to knock what Jesus SAID about Himself, but that's between you and Him. I stand by what Jesus SAID. If you can't do the same, Donnie, then may God help you.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 14 2013, 3:04 AM 

Bill,

I have ... I have. In fact, I noticed that you had inadvertently left out the "chapter" of the second passage in your initial post. Also, I have already explained that "came down from heaven" and "existed" do not have the same meaning. I also said -- what about the fire that "came down from heaven"?

Bill, we ought to study the passages you quoted with the rest of John 1. We need to consider the time frame, the continuum -- from the "in the beginning" when "the Word" was in the beginning with God (and was God [if you forgot about that]) UNTIL the time when "the Word" became flesh. You're just simply denying or rejecting that span of time. If "the Word" was already Jesus in the beginning, there would have been no point in Jesus coming to earth to become Jesus.

There are questions and issues that you haven't paid serious attention to: (1) When did Jesus become the Son of God? (2) When was Jesus made both Lord and Christ by the Father?

You are entitled to your viewpoint -- call my interpretation a fallacy, but don't insult me otherwise.

 
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Coach
(no login)
108.230.197.238

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 13 2013, 3:04 PM 

Bill, I thought it to be impossible for us to agree on anything...However,

[linked image]

I agree with Bill on this issue. I don't see how Donnie and Ken can refute the scripture that you listed.


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 13 2013, 3:47 PM 

Did you wear that suit to church (Kirke, Circus) this morning. We told you HOW Jesus was GENERATED from above: he did not exist before he existed. Sorry to be so technical. I can't tell you much about the existence of "spirits" but I do know that ALL of those who can read BLACK text on BROWN paper are FROM ABOVE.

John 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all:
.....he that is of the earth is earthly,
.....and speaketh of the earth:
.....he that cometh from heaven is above all.
John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above:
.....ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own:
.....but because ye are not of the world,
.....but I have chosen you OUT of the world,
.....therefore the world hateth you.

John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men
.....which thou gavest me IYT of the world:
.....thine they WERE, and thou gavest them me;
.....and they have kept thy word.

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them,
.....because they are not of the world,
.....even as I am not of the world.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world,
.....but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
John 17:16 They are not of the world,
.....even as I am not of the world.


Many or MOST are called but FEW (almost none) are Chosen because they GLADLY RECEIVE the invitation to RETURN to God.

Jesus doesn't speak to those OF THE WORLD who are NOT the lost spirits God prepared Jesus to seek out. And god HIDES from the wise or sophists meaning sermonizers, singers, instrument players, actors and ALWAYS dancers. We all wear the TUTU when we sing the voodoo.

You won't be able to do Religious Observations for the tiny few out of the MANY CALLED. You cannot see them worship and you cannot FORCE them to dance and sing and clap. You won't be able to pick the pockets of widows and honest workers. They will be worshiping IN the SPIRIT which is a PLACE because God does not dwell in HOUSES built by ill-gotten gains and He cannot be worshiped by the WORKS of human hands: raising, pointing, waving, clapping or picking a guitar: Psallo EXCLUDES guitar picks.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.107.21 on Oct 13, 2013 3:51 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 13 2013, 3:57 PM 

I'm off to see the Titans with better half.

 
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Coach
(no login)
108.230.197.238

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 13 2013, 4:38 PM 

Ken, I was sitting on the front row at Church. I was wearing a maroon colored suit, white shirt, and tie with a black hound's-tooth pattern.

Ken, did you go to Church? Enjoy the ballgame.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 13 2013, 6:56 PM 

I do personally certify that the most primitive in the pre-post-literate period knew that:

Loud music was known to INTEND to attack and hurt. It was known to make LEARNING impossible because "learning hurts" and false teachers substitute music to divert.

Loud music was--then and now--known to be the result of men who "set their lies to deceive the simple minded."

Why should I subject myself to that which induces a DRUG HIGH beyond the reach of medication to relieve?

And pay them too?

I can also affirm that probably more than half of the population (as the Greeks knew) are BURDEN LADED meaning songs that "create spiritual anxiety through religious ceremonial. Paul outlawed that before it is possible to hold, in his words, synagogue where the direct command is "to use one mind and one mouth to teach that which is written for our learning."

While the men playing the SHELL GAME and making WORSHIP WARS to steal sheep, the population has increased 1 or 2 Billions. Animals do that to defend their turf.

 
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Coach
(no login)
108.230.197.238

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 14 2013, 5:46 PM 


 
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