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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: For the Sake of Our Readers

November 11 2013, 2:57 PM 

No, Bill.

You've been refusing to answer those GOTCHA questions. Right? You know that those specific questions would rebut and disprove your presumptive arguments. That's OK. It's your habit and attitude -- not mine.

You can present those passages forevermore. I strongly believe in those passages.

None of the passages proves your acquired beliefs.

The Scripture, however, says:

1. God was manifest in the flesh. Do you know what "manifest" means?
2. It was the Word (LOGOS) -- not Jesus -- that was made flesh.
3. It was the Word (LOGOS) "in the beginning" that pre-existed Jesus.
4. That your perception that "Jesus became Jesus" is NOT Scripture-based.

If I were you I would leave the Scripture and the truth it has revealed alone. Play it safe by not making substitutions or modifications to God's word.


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: For the Sake of Our Readers

November 11 2013, 4:04 PM 

And don't forget that Jesus was the BREAD that came down from heaven.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: For the Sake of Our Readers

November 11 2013, 4:58 PM 

Those isolated proof texts fails to honor the many other passages or even the context of the passage. Most people do just cherry pick and therefore add to and subtract from and dishonor the LOGOS.

1Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God,
.....which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
1Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
.....God was manifest in the flesh,
.....justified in the Spirit,
.....seen of angels,
.....preached unto the Gentiles,
.....believed on in the world,
.....received up into glory.

You cannot see God and Live. Therefore, God IMAGED Himself as Jesus of Nazareth to validate His Word.

Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man,
.....which is renewed in knowledge after the IMAGE of him that created him:
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the BRIGHTNESS of his glory,
.....and the express image of his person,
.....and upholding all things by the word of his power,
.....when he had by himself purged our sins,
.....sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

IMAGE means to BE LIKE, represent by an image or likeness, portray, to be like, resemble,

We will also bear the IMAGE of God but we will not BE God.

1Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
.....we shall also bear the IMAGE of the heavenly.
2Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
.....lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ,
.....who is the IMAGE of God, should shine unto them.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

2Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 
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Humility
(no login)
98.87.37.202

Re: For the Sake of Our Readers

November 13 2013, 11:09 PM 

While we are considering the nature of Christ, we might diverge to consider some history. It's a certainty that the Restorers of the 1800s would not have adopted a creed about Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Campbell and Stone were influenced by James O'Kelley, Abner Jones, and Elias Smith. Heres an interesting article from http://www.ucc.org/about-us/short-course/the-christian-churches.html

Of all the United Church of Christ traditions, the Christian Churches were most uniquely American in origin and character. In Virginia, Vermont, and Kentucky, the Second Great Awakening in the early 1800s stirred the hearts of quite disparate leaders and their followers with the impulse to return to the simplicity of early Christianity. The first group was gathered in 1794 in Virginia by a Revolutionary soldier, James O'Kelley. He, with many other Methodists left the church over their objection to bishops. Methodism, they felt, was too autocratical. They wanted the frontier churches to be freed to deal with the needs and concerns that were different from those of the more established churches. They declared that the Bible was their only guide and adopted as their new name, the Christian Church.

A few years later, at Lyndon, Vermont, Abner Jones and his followers objected to Calvinist Baptist views. In 1801, they organized the First Free Christian Church, in which Christian character would be the only requirement for membership, and in which all who could do so in faith, were welcome to partake of the Lord's Supper. Christ was seen to be more generous than to withhold Communion from all but those who had been baptized by immersion. Jones was later joined by Baptist Elias Smith, who helped to organize a Christian church in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, and began publishing, in 1808, the Herald of Gospel Liberty. Smith's paper became a means of drawing the separate Christian movements together.

With a minimum of organization, other churches of like mind were established and the movement became known as the "Christian Connection." The "Connection" had been organized in 1820 at the first United General Conference of Christians, during which six principles were unanimously affirmed:

Christ, the only head of the Church.
The Bible, sufficient rule of faith and practice.
Christian character, the only measurement for membership.
The right of private judgment, interpretation of scripture, and liberty of conscience.
The name "Christian," worthy for Christ's followers.
Unity of all Christ's followers in behalf of the world.


Do you see the similarity of the six principles and some of our heritage?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Diverging to Consider Some History

November 13 2013, 11:55 PM 

It is an interesting read. Although names of the Restoration leaders were mentioned, no reference to the "Restoration Movement" was made. Maybe I overlooked it.

The UCC.org is the website for the "United Church of Christ" denomination that was founded in the 1950s. The Evangelical and Reformed Church and the Congregational Christian Churches merged at the time to form the denomination.



=============================

I was in the process of revising and replacing the above response -- instead, you will see that revision later. OK, Humility's post below has been published.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Nov 14, 2013 1:33 AM


 
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Humility
(no login)
98.87.37.202

Diverging to Consider Some History

November 14 2013, 1:05 AM 

Here's a connection between Cane Ridge, Kentucky, where Barton Stone was present. The Christian Connexion (Connection) was present and an heir to Cane Ridge, as was the Restoration Movement. There may be other connections to the Restoration Churches. Stone went with the Restoration Movement, while the others went into the "Christian Churches" (not to be confused with the Restoration Christian Churches). Both types of Christian Churches were no doubt influenced by the conviction that we are to be called "Christians" rather than by the name of a denomination. Both "Christian Churches" were influenced at Cane Ridge. It's not surprising that "Christian Church" as multiple references, and is confusing, but both the Restoration Christian Churches and the Christian Churches otherwise associated with Cane Ridge can be considered "cousins" or "kin." This is an interesting, but convoluted history.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cane_Ridge,_Kentucky as follows:

Several hundred miles to the north in Vermont, a Baptist preacher by the name of Abner Jones began to refute the then-prevalent Calvinist dogmas within his fellowship. He led some of his followers out of his congregation into a new fellowship founded upon a platform similar to O'Kelly's, with a strong emphasis upon open communion and freedom of conscience. Later in the first decade of the 19th century, he and a New Hampshire pastor began publishing a newspaper for the movement, Herald of Gospel Liberty, reputed by some historians to have been the first general-interest religious periodical in the U.S. The movement progressed throughout New England, especially within those two states, as well as Maine and Massachusetts. Ironically given the Christian Connection's later history, the churches were treated, in the main, in a hostile fashion by adherents of the Congregational "Standing Order."

Both movements were restorationist in outlook, and influenced the later Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement. That later movement produced several larger groups still in existence today: the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), the Christian churches and churches of Christ, and the Churches of Christ.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Diverging to Consider Some History

November 14 2013, 1:20 AM 

Thanks so much for the message. I think we need a "breather."

In response to your question, yes, I'm reminded so much of the Restoration heritage and principles

It is an interesting read. Although names of the Restoration leaders were mentioned, no reference to the "Restoration Movement" was made. Maybe I overlooked it.

The UCC.org is the website for the "United Church of Christ" denomination that was founded in the 1950s, maybe earlier. The Evangelical and Reformed Church and the Congregational Christian Churches merged at the time to form the denomination.

You said, "It's a certainty that the Restorers of the 1800s would not have adopted a creed about Father, Son, and Holy Ghost."

That's a noteworthy observation, indeed. The Restoration leaders did not embrace, did not endorse, the Trinity Creed. The main emphasis at the time regarding "the godhead" was that there is only ONE GOD -- not a multiplicity of "Gods" being ONE. That God's holy Spirit is the mind of God: God's way or means of communicating with our spirit. The difference is that man's spirit is UNHOLY while God's spirit is holy.

 
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Humility
(no login)
98.87.37.202

Diverging to Consider Some History

November 14 2013, 9:52 AM 

Donnie said:

The main emphasis at the time regarding "the godhead" was that there is only ONE GOD -- not a multiplicity of "Gods" being ONE. That God's holy Spirit is the mind of God: God's way or means of communicating with our spirit. The difference is that man's spirit is UNHOLY while God's spirit is holy.

This is a very well stated.

To add to this, God's Son was God's Will, Truth, and Word coming to earth so that we might "know" God.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.14.228

Back on Track

November 14 2013, 10:58 AM 

Since there is only one God and not a multiplicity of Gods, then Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God. They are all one and the same. As Jesus said:

"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30 KJV).

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" (John 14:9 KJV).


Jesus was not only one in spirit with the Father when Jesus was on earth, but Jesus was literally Emmanuel, "God with us" (Matt. 1:23), God manifest in the flesh (1 Tim. 3:16). Since Jesus has ascended back into heaven whence He came, He, God, and the Holy Spirit now remain one and the same.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Back on Track

November 14 2013, 1:20 PM 

Bill you are still confusing:

Father--Son--Spirit

With

God--Jesus--and a Holy Spirit PEOPLE.

Father, mother (spirit, son is the universal PAGAN Thesis.

As with most of the teachings of Jesus and posted by the Apostles, the TRUE nature of THEOS or the Almighty and other things like instrumental performance as the MARK and CAUSE of a perverted priesthod--all such hoods are gender confused is the ANTITHESIS.

The people who first used the trias word said that the WORD of God is the SON of God. The ONE ALMIGHTY Breathes and Articulated HIS OWN MIND OR SPIRIT. Whenever the Almighty works in the physical dimension His INSTRUMENTAL MEANS is what He speaks. The MAN Jesus of Nazareth was the LIPS or Double-edged-Sword by which the ONE ALMIGHTY "breathes" to produce "words."

What you HEAR or READ as the LOGOS is the SON which is begotten. A begotten believer by absolute definition speaks only what Jesus as SON delivered to the sons of God HIS BRETHREN.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.240.211.214

Re: Back on Track

November 14 2013, 1:24 PM 

And since the Word was with God and the Word was God in the beginning (John 1:1), and since Jesus is also God, then Jesus was and is also the Word. So, God, Jesus, Word, Holy Spirit, Son, Christ, Father, Lord, Savior, etc. etc. are all synonymns for the same One Eternal Being.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.240.211.214

Re: Back on Track

November 14 2013, 1:36 PM 

No confusion at all. Confusion exists if you throw out the Trinity but then turn around and say there is God and then try to make Jesus a being completely separate from God. If the Trinity doesn't exist and doesn't consist of three separate divine "persons" or beings, then there is also no comparable set of two separate, divine beings. They are all ONE existing as synonymns for God: Jesus, Holy Spirit, Christ, Lord, Father, Son, Savior, Lord, I AM, etc. etc.

Personally, I don't worry about it too much. Neither should you nor anyone else.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

November 14 2013, 10:44 AM 

Life in the 1880's
Christian Church/Disciples of Christ in 19th Century Indiana
Sheryl D. Vanderstel

New Light Christians, probably the largest of the pre-Campbellite Christian groups, grew from a movement that originated in 1790s New England. Followers of Baptist minister Abner Jones chose to name themselves Christians to stress their non-denominational stance. The Bible was their only doctrine. Meanwhile, in the South, a similar movement began with Methodist circuit rider James O'Kelly who felt that the power of the bishop and the restrictions of the Methodist Doctrine were unchristian.

At the beginning of the 19th century, in far-western regions of the country, Presbyterian minister Barton Stone was watching with great interest the revivals of the Second Great Awakening. In 1801 Stone participated in the great Cane Ridge Camp meeting and from that moment on looked to reform the Presbyterian faith by renouncing the doctrine of predestination and turning instead to a doctrine of salvation by repentance. Although Stone did not initiate the New Light Movement in the West, it is with Stone that it is most often associated.

It was this respect and devotion felt by westerners to the gentle and articulate Stone that in many ways facilitated the 1832 merger of the New Lights with the Campbellites. After the first meeting of the two groups at Stone's church in Georgetown, Kentucky in 1833.


Of course Campbell scoffed that a few handshakes could create unity: Stone at that time held nothing in common with Campbell but he boasted that "the Reformers HAVE COME OVER TO US." John Smith wrote the UNITY AGREEMENT and denied that unity could exist outside the conditions: the Disciples ignored the agreement.

http://www.piney.com/Stone.Campbell.Burnett.html

This last date is used by the Christian Church and their small number of DUPES to accuse Churches of Christ with being a sectarial split off the Christian Church. Of course that is false but effective means of inducing guilt. The 1906 date was a loud NO: Churches of Christ are not and have never been part of what became the Disciples of Christ. Campbell denied that there could be unity with the Stoneites BEFORE the 1932 date and FOLLOWING that date. Friendly fellowship was possible among many groups before the INSTRUMENTAL apostasy. The NACC a merchandising part of the Christian Church did not begin to split from the Disciples until 1927 and finally removed from their census in 1971.

Weekly worship for Christian Disciples was a simple matter. No liturgical form was followed. Worship consisted of sermons and prayers with additional hymn singing. The Lord's Supper was an important part of worship. Baptism followed the guidelines of Christ's own baptism, that of adult immersion. Membership in the faith did not require a conversion experience or any examination. One only had to adhere to the tenet of Christ as Savior and Scriptures as the only doctrine.

But even hymn singing during worship caused a problem for some who considered hymns to contain religious doctrine and thus deserving of being excluded from worship. Campbell felt strongly about the use of hymns in worship and sought to override the objections by compiling a book containing hymn texts appropriate to the Scriptural basis of the faith. His work was simply titled Hymn Book [no notes].


And the Worship Song Book War was on:

Hoosier singing master Silas W. Leonard, also an elder in the church, compiled a book of texts and music for use in Christian churches entitled the Christian Psalmist. At mid century, Rush County evangelist Knowles Shaw used sermons and songs to bring thousands into the church. He ultimately compiled five hymnbooks. His own compositions, including the gospel hymn "Bringing in the Sheaves," were part of the hymnals. The use of organs in worship also divided the more conservative believers from their fellow Christians.

This supports the idea that most of the ORGAN as a way to destroy unity happened among what became the Disciples or Christian Churches. What became the NACC became an active antagonist of the ANTI-instrumental Churches of Christ and began the series of debates and hostile attempt to take over Churches of Christ to make them into "organ and society" party members. Almost as soon as Instruments began their history of making war fraternal fellowship with those who had not yet fallen was possible. The Debate attack invented the PSALLO word in 1878 as authority and insisted that it would be a SIN led by Satan for churches NOT to use instruments. That is still their claim.

The first congregation in Indianapolis organized as a Campbellite church was the Church of Christ in Indianapolis. Evangelist John O'Kane organized the church in June of 1833.

 
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Confused
(no login)
98.193.241.39

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

November 29 2013, 1:45 AM 

Was there not places in the Old Testament where God spoke of Himself in the plural form? If Jesus is God he has to be eternal. He can't be God and also be created. He either is God or was a man. I don't know which, but I know for sure that 1/3 of God is not 2000 years old.

 
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Scripture
(no login)
98.87.120.207

Mystery of His Will

November 29 2013, 4:06 PM 

God has chosen in these last times to unveil the mystery (secret) of His Will (Ephesians 1:7-11). Part of that mystery was the plan for God's Word to descend to become human, who in all points was tempted just as we. So being familiar with the trails of the flesh, He sits upon the throne as a High Priest that is familiar with our imperfections, and makes intercession for us (see Hebrews and Romans, for more detail).

This mystery include the revelation of the existence of Christ identified with Jesus, the redemption through His blood, as the Suffering Savior, not a overbearing military figure. God purposed this from the beginning, and in the New Covenant He has unveiled the Christ. Christ sums up all things in the heavens and things on the earth. These events were predestined according to His purpose, who works all things according the purpose of His Will (Word). We become God's own possession.

The revelation of Christ was the unveiling to the temple, the understanding that God was in Christ.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

November 29 2013, 9:27 PM 

Remember my mantra that out of the WORLD for whom Jesus will not pray and God will not speak, there are a tiny few who are chosen because the--being lost spirits in my conviction--can HEAR the message and respond. Paul warned about the MANY trying to ride on the backs of any movement and said, "If they will not work neither shall they eat." He gave the man who PLANTED and orchard to eat of the fruits but that the GOSPEL cannot be peddled by door-to-door hucksers or "or corrupters of the Word." He said that the GOSPEL will be hindered by anyone trying to live out of the widow's purse and it is probably a fact that those "lost spirits" moved under the "umbrella" of the church were mostly poor.

It is a historic fact that the TRINITY rest on the "US" word in Genesis and if my thesis is correct clergy will rob, steal and murder to defend a DENIAL that OR Lord is ONE god. That being the case they have no interest and maybe NO ABILITY to go beyond just lifting the "Let US" and ignore the context. A disciple or a student of Janitorial Services will read ALL of the instructions and never pick out an isolated phrase to explain why he didn't follow the procedures for "putting out an oil fire." BUT, not those "seeing godliness as an means of financial gain or just occupation."

But, how can you tell? Christ commanded from the wilderness onward to PREACH the WORD by READING the Word for Comfort and Doctrine. He will not, cannot, add Laded Burdens lie a flock of "ministers" to administer "programs."

If this isn't clear, maybe Scripture and fill in the blanks:

SOME OF GENESIS ONE

Preachers SEARCHING for a trinitarian proof text, as with most preaching, do not honor God by reading the whole recipe. For instance from Genesis 1:1 Forward EVERYTHING that is created when

Genesis 1:27 So GOD created man in HIS own image,

I can MAKE a piece of furniture but I cannot CREATE wood. WE can MAKE a flute out of a deer bone but only HE can create the Deer.

H1254 BARA baw-raw' A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

Lucifer was BARA or CREATED or Cast as Profane (that Halal or Chalal word) out of Heaven but he/she/it was CREATED by God and fell by being the "singing and harp-playing prostitute in the garden of Eden." Now, SHE is worshipped by feminists and effeminate as the New Style of Music and Drama.

Bara in it's good sense means that the ONE GOD created matter out of "that which does not appear." If an animal or man had never "appeared" then they were created out of "nothing" meaning nothing that you can see. At the root, matter is a wave motion and almost infinitely tiny. The US was not involved in this Creation. God CREATED the WORD when He thought, breated and articulated.

In Genesis 1:25 a new cycle begins where the creatures were set in order

Genesis 1:25 And God MADE the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

H6213 ASAH A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application:accomplish, advance, appoint. become, bear, bestow, bring forth

It was NOT in the Creation out of the invisible that the "US" is used but ASAH or MAKE to assign.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let US make man in our image, after our likeness:
FOR WHAT PURPOSE?.....and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle,
.....and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Psalms 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Psalms 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Psalms 8:6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:


US is the Latin: Noster For the poss. gen. of the FIRST PERSON: HE of whom we are speaking. In addressing a person: "OUR good friend Joe."

So the ANIMAL WORLD which God alone CREATED. However, if you will notice that MAN is THEM who is NOW MADE and not just now CREATED, so that THEY could be RULERS of the CREATED "Garden of Eden."

BUT BACK TO THE WHOM DID THE ACTUAL CREATION:

Genesis 1:27 So GOD created man in HIS own image, in the image of God CREATED he him; male and female created he them.

So before and after the US word which is not plural but points aback to the GOD Who is a HE and never and US, it is GOD SINGULAR who created.
Elohim is generally PLURAL of all of the imagined gods or men with very great power and authority (heros). However, Scripture makes it clear that there are MANY Elohim but OUR Eloah is JEHOVAH just so you don't get confused about WHO has the only TRUE nature of God being THEY: Elsewhere, God is always a HE and never a THEM inserted by the polytheists who never honored God enough to read the whole chapter: even while getting a Phd in "Old Testament."

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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