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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 15 2013, 1:09 AM 

Where's "the beef," Coach? Did not someone quote a single scripture reference?

 
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Coach
(no login)
108.230.197.238

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 15 2013, 12:08 PM 

Where's "the beef," Coach? Did not someone quote a single scripture reference?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Bear with me Donnie, "the end justifies the means" if I can get Ken back in Church. wink.gif

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 15 2013, 11:30 PM 

That invitation is very insulting, Coach. Ken is already in the School of Christ. He is one of its great instructors.

 
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Coach
(no login)
108.230.197.238

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 14 2013, 5:22 PM 

Titans 13-----Seahawks 20

Ken it's a sign. See you in Church Sunday?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 15 2013, 1:22 AM 

Coach, when can you give us directions to the city where the church building is located? Is there a STOP sign before turning LEFT?

 
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Coach
(no login)
108.230.197.238

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 15 2013, 11:54 AM 

"Coach, when can you give us directions to the city where the church building is located? Is there a STOP sign before turning LEFT?"

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Actually, it's a "Roundabout". You can only exit to the right. happy.gif

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 15 2013, 11:13 PM 

I was simply trying to differentiate the church from the church building. Coach, would you not want us to know about your home congregation? Even though you were inviting...?

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.249.241

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 13 2013, 5:23 PM 

When people have preconceived notions about things, it's embarrassing and often very difficult for them to change their minds when unequivocal proof stares them in their faces and utterly destroys those notions. That applies to the erroneous, preconceived notion that Jesus never existed AT ALL until He was born on earth. The Scriptures say that He existed in heaven before coming to earth. If people want to hold on to their erroneous preconceived notions, it's their prerogative, unfortunately.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Before the Bith of Jesus and His Being Made Both Lord and Christ

October 13 2013, 9:42 PM 

Nope.

The Scripture cannot be destroyed.

Only after his birth was Jesus called "the Son of God."

Only after his birth was he made both Lord and Christ.

Did God send His only begotten Son IN THE BEGINNING?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 13 2013, 7:35 PM 

The ISSUE was/is: "Was Jesus of Nazareth a literal "begotten" son of God from all eternity. Was HE a member of a "god family"? Was He EQUAL but SEPARATE from the FATHER god and the Spirit god? Was God THREE centers of consciousness each with their unique talent but were in COMMUNION so that they all thought alike?

Christ is not a GOD word but was the promised MESSIAH. No one ever thought that Messiah was a member of the god family: you would probably have been executed if you denied all of the clear statements that THERE IS ONE GOD.

John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said,
.....That Christ cometh of the seed of David,
.....and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
.....which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


Jesus became the son Mary because God worked a MIRACLE. God did not put a pre-existing Jesus OF Nazareth into Mary but sparked the EGG within Mary (the seed of a woman) into dividing. Otherwise, some bright person would have said "Jesus OF heaven."

Romans 1:4 And DECLARED to be the Son of God with power,
.....according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


He was not the Son of God until God made him to be His ONLY human generated MAN not created without a man. This is to validate prophecy: No king was to set on the throne from the SEED of Jechoniah. The issue is not any more than a virgin birth as it is to PROVE prophecy.

While all of those for Whom Jesus was sent to search out of the masses are FROM ABOVE and not OF THIS WORLD, Jesus was unique in that God BREATHED His Spirit (Breath) to INSTRUCT us in a School of Christ: those OF THE WORLD were doing "worship services" this morning TO WHICH Jesus said the Kingdom does not come.


 
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Tom Brite
(no login)
76.79.135.196

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 14 2013, 12:21 AM 

Have I missed a discussion of Gen. 1:26? I'm out of town and the small print on my phone is hard for us old folks, but would love some thoughts.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 14 2013, 4:01 AM 

Just very briefly, Tom.

(I was just waiting for someone to mention the passage.)

I see a parallel between Genesis 1 and John 1 -- both strongly emphasize "in the beginning." (Of course, I realize the common belief in "let us" ... as well as the common belief in "the Word" in reference to Jesus.)

In Genesis it's always "GOD SAID" on the first day, second day, third day, etc. And there's only ONE God -- should we doubt it? But there's significance in God SPEAKING with no one around. So in "LET US," it is ONE God and God SPEAKING.

In John, it's about "the Word" (LOGOS -- spoken, uttered, articulated) that was "in the beginning" ... and was "in the beginning" with God ... and "THE WORD WAS GOD." There -- there's only ONE God -- should we doubt it?

In both accounts (Genesis and John), we can be assured that there is only ONE GOD, no matter how many divine beings man would attempt to add to the ONE GOD.


 
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Dave
(no login)
162.229.28.209

Facts are Facts

October 14 2013, 10:13 AM 

John 10
30 I and the Father are one.

John 1
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

No one.....again......No one is denying that there is but one God. The beautiful FACT that John brings to us is that Jesus is God. John 10 proves that.

What is unthinkable is that Donnie has all along decried the catholic thinking of Trinity, yet now we see him trying to separate the two.

Tom Brite mentioned this....the fact that most all of the brotherhood believes that Jesus is the Word, and has always been....just as the Scriptures speak of.

This logos.......is a HE......that HE being Jesus. HE became flesh, Jesus, but as specified in verse 2, was with God, being God, a part of God, in the beginning.

John 1
2 He was with God in the beginning.

When it mentions HE, it mentions that the WORD is HE, being Jesus.

John 5
19 Jesus gave them this answer: Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Why could He do nothing by himself, and why does He do only what God does? Because He IS God.

Yes, Donnie, we are all part of God too. You sound like the muslim who tells me that we are all children of God. We are, but we are only part of God because of our adoption through Jesus Christ.

Jesus is God.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

"... and GOD was the Word" (John 1:1)

October 15 2013, 12:52 AM 

Dave,

(1) Let's not forget "... and the Word was God" [still] in verse one. The original text renders "... and God was the Word."

(2) There are those who have the preconceived notion that "Jesus" was "the Word in the beginning." They literally would substitute "Jesus" in place of "the Word." Based on the original text, can you imagine the distortion?

----------- Original Text ---------------
(a) In the beginning was the Word
(b) ... and the Word was with God
(c) ... and God was the Word


----------- Distorted Substitution ------
(a) In the beginning was Jesus
(b) ... and Jesus was with God
(c) ... and God was Jesus [really? really? really?]


(3) "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30) speaks of UNITY -- not as twins.

(4) Worse would be to claim: "I and my Father and my Mother [the Virgin Mary] are one."

(5) Just as bad would be to claim: "I and my Father and the 3rd Person Holy Spirit are one."

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.247.247

Re: "... and GOD was the Word" (John 1:1)

October 15 2013, 10:37 AM 

So here we have continuing arguments about whether Jesus was the Word or was not the Word and about whether Jesus is God or is not God.

But the most notable arguments center around Jesus' telling us in John 3 and John 6 in His own words that He "came down from heaven" to be with us on earth and that He would "ascend up where He was before." Then other people, in complete denial of the Scriptures, come along with their eyes and ears tightly shut and say nope, nope, Jesus never existed or lived in heaven with God before His birth on earth; when He was born 2,000 years ago, THAT'S when Jesus first came into being, never beforehand.

That is absolutely unbelievable!

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: "... and GOD was the Word" (John 1:1)

October 16 2013, 12:59 AM 

Bill, were you aware of the above subject: "'... and God was the Word' (John 1:1)"? If not, you really should.

John 1:1 says, "... and God was the Word."

You've been substituting "Jesus" for "the Word" for a while now. Can you honestly say, according to your rule of substitution, "... and God was Jesus"? Bill: "... and God was Jesus"?????????????

You've also been equating "came down from heaven" with "existed." Really? What about "the fire came from heaven" in II Chron. 7:1?

When did Jesus become the Son of God?

When was Jesus made both Lord and Christ by the Father?


Bill, why do you keep ignoring these very important questions?

That is a very, very bad habit.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

October 14 2013, 1:20 PM 

Tom, I have redone my table to include verse 26. John Calvin agreed that this says nothing about three persons doing the creating. WE still say WE when WE know that we are not triplets. John knew that God always had His Wisdom, Breath (spirit) and Word with HIM: He never leaves home disconnected from His Word.

God made it clear that GOD made man in HIS image.

[linked image]

 
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Dave
(no login)
162.229.28.209

Just the Facts Donnie

October 15 2013, 9:39 AM 

Donnie claimed that "There are those who have the preconceived notion that "Jesus" was "the Word in the beginning.""

Fortunately Donnie, it isn't a claim, but only fact, when you back it with Scripture.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

The Word, the He, became Jesus dwelling among us. The Word, Jesus was with God in the beginning and the Word was God.

You cannot deny facts.

The crazy part? You said "Just as bad would be to claim: "I and my Father and the 3rd Person Holy Spirit are one.""

Donnie, you have come full circle. You are separating God from Jesus, and now you want your three persons? 'God in three persons, blessed trinity.'

Amazing.

(3) "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30) speaks of UNITY -- not as twins.

John only quotes what Jesus said. You are right....not as twins, but as one. Twins are two different people.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Just the Facts Donnie

October 16 2013, 1:22 AM 

Dave,

John 1:1 says that it was "the Word" that "was in the beginning." Why change the truth?

John 1:1 says that it was "the Word" that "was made flesh" in the person of Jesus Christ. Why would you even attempt to change the truth into your notion which is: "... and Jesus became Jesus"?

Dave, God made Jesus both LORD and CHRIST. Did this occur to "the Word" you CLAIM as Jesus in the beginning with God? Or, did this occur during the lifetime of Christ here on earth?

Dave, was Jesus already the Son of God in the beginning long before God sent His only begotten Son two millenniums ago?

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.243.156

Re: Just the Facts Donnie

October 16 2013, 1:44 AM 



[ . . . ]

________________________________


Bill,

Please respond to the unanswered questions I've already asked you several times ... including the same questions for Dave just above this post. Then, we will publish your temporarily "disabled" post. (By the way, this SAME message has already been published several times.)


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Oct 16, 2013 3:28 AM


 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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