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Re: Just the Facts Donnie

October 16 2013, 10:28 AM 

Donnie, regardless of whether Jesus was or was not the Word or whether Jesus is or is not God, do you believe Jesus when He said that He "came down from heaven" and would "ascend up where He was before," or do you believe Jesus didn't mean what He said? No need to publish a response here; it's just something for your private thoughts.

BTW, you've published your same message many times before, and you've published Dave's repetitious citations from John 1 as well.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Just the Facts Donnie

October 16 2013, 12:15 PM 

In the beginning was the WORD.

God HAS no BEGINNING. The recorded "beginning" tells the story of God abandoning the Israelites back to Babylonianism at the EXACT TIME the people rejected grace and engaged in musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. The Spirit OF Christ (the Rock etal) was God's instrumental agent but not Jesus until Jesus was BEGOTTEN.

There is ONE ALMIGHTY and the pseudo-trinitiarians being strongly deluded think that THEY are the Almighty.

If you deny the ONE GOD [Theos] the Almighty
And the one GENERATED Son made Lord (Kurios) BY the Father.

Then John says that you are an ANTI-Christ, strongly deluded and doomed to chase your tail forever.

I love the Book of Enoch because it describes out day perfectly: people KNOW that they have fallen and cannot get back up. In these accounts beginning with clay tablets their sudden gasp drives them into a frenzy and they.

Form uni-sex singers, players, dancers (any body gyration) and ACTORS. They work really hard to convert other people to affirm their position and thus the Locust (muses led by Apollo, Abaddon) hold them captive and PUNISH them and collect them in certain places like the WIND (spirit) which piles them up to make burning easier: that is the Baptism of FIRE.

The Pruning Hook was also a musical instrument because of its "musical" ring.

Perhaps the "trumpets" have sounded. If not yet, beginning perhaps in heaven and especially with the flood, God periodically PURGES the masses. I think the 120 was the "preserved" gift to Jesus out of many millions of those given God's favor.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Just the Facts Donnie

October 16 2013, 12:30 PM 

No authority, power or even WORDS originated with Jesus: The PATTERN is that a Son speaks only what His Father tells Him to speak if He is the promised Messiah being made of the genetic material of Abraham.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him,
.....because he not only had broken the sabbath,
.....but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
.....The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do:
..... for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son,
.....and sheweth him all things that himself doeth:
.....and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them;
.....even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them,
.....Even the same that I said unto you from the BEGINNING.
John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true;
.....and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
John 8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them,
.....When ye have lifted up the Son of MAN, then shall ye know that I am he,
.....and that I do nothing of myself;
.....but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone;
.....for I do always those things that please him.
John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him,
.....If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:32 And ye shall know THE TRUTH,
.....and the truth shall make you free.

Only those who continue in the Word of Jesus which came from the Father will it be POSSIBLE to know the Truth. This is the Spirit OF Truth or A holy spirit or A good conscience REQUIRED to read BLACK text on WHITE paper.

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Re: Just the Facts Donnie

October 16 2013, 1:47 PM 

God sent Jesus down from heaven to be born as a human being on earth, and God called Jesus back into heaven whence He had originally come. That's why Jesus said that He "came down from heaven" and that He would "ascend up where He was before." But Donnie doesn't believe that, does he? You don't believe that either, do you, Ken?

If Dave can keep citing John 1:1,2 as the basis for saying Jesus was the Word, then I can keep citing passages from John 3 and John 6 to prove that Jesus existed in heaven before coming to earth. happy.gif

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Bill Refuses to Answer Even Simple Questions

October 17 2013, 2:26 AM 

What happened to the fire that "came down from heaven" (II Chron. 7:1).

Dave keeps citing John 1:1,2. That's not a problem because he answers question and pays more attention to details.

Bill uses the premise being discussed for his argument; he is afraid to answer questions and he uses perceptions for rebuttal. A very good example is in his 1st paragraph above. We've rebutted that assertion as many times as he has repeatedly issued the statement.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Just the Facts Donnie

October 16 2013, 1:56 PM 

Became or gignomai means to "come into a new state of being." The Word spoken before by God THROUGH the Prophets in the latter days was spoken by Jesus Christ. The WORD (Dabar) was God's WORD but in the mouth and pen of the PROPHETS. The prophets were not members of a god famil.

14 Kai ho logos sarx egeneto kai esknsen en hmin, kai etheasametha tn doxan autou, doxan hs monogenous para patros, plrs kharitos kai altheias:

In the Beginning God's SON was His Word: God SINGULAR speaks and things come into being. That's the view of the first people who used the trias word.

The WORD came into a new state of Being when God BREATHED His WORD into Jesus and JESUS articulated the Word. The WORD was still called the WORD OF GOD and was never called JESUS.

Jesus articulated the WORD which was still God's WordS. Jesus denies that HE was the Word but the Speaker.

The WORD dwelled IN FLESH Skenoo or 'pitched it's tent in a body of flesh." Something that dwells in a tent is NOT the tent.

mono-gens , es, Ep. and Ion. mouno- , (genos)
*A the only member of a kin or kind: hence, generally, only, single, pais Hes.Op.376, Hdt.7.221, cf. Ev.Jo.1.14, Ant.Lib.32.1; of Hecate, Hes. Th.426. unique.

Jesus was the only begotten by God son and is the second Adam. Jesus did not exist before He was begotten by God empowering a virgin to create a son. In ALL pagan triads the father god literally has sex with a human and she gives birth to a son.

The MAN Jesus was BEGOTTEN by God: what God BEGETS is called the SON of the FATHER. A son does not exist until the father BEGETS him. Jesus was BEGOTTEN in the TIME and BODY of Mary. Mary was NOT the Mother of God.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Just the Facts Donnie

October 16 2013, 4:29 PM 

Jesus did not have the power of God Almighty: it was given to him by His Father and OUR Father.

Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the
.....Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins,
.....(then saith he to the sick of the palsy,)
.....Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them,
saying, All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth.

The East Wing Church of Christ is that the Son (Jesus) is a CO-God and has the same authority as the Almighty. However, in the words of Rubel Shelly the "father" god and the "spirit" god TRICKED the "son" god into dying for all mankind because he was young and always raising his hand.

There MUST be apostasy and only the ELECT will SCARCELY be saved.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Just the Facts Donnie

October 16 2013, 4:47 PM 

MY words are made PAPER. Therefore, the paper WAS my words and WAS me all along.

I just love my gift of reading black text on white paper! I think I got that gift about grade 1 or 2 in a one room school my parents attended still flying the Confederate Battle flag.

My words become a series of 1s and 0s: the ones and zero's are MY WORDS before they BECAME my audible. The ones and zeros are still MINE and CONTAIN information not audible or visible. However, the computer in your computer reads the unreadable string and you read the WORDS. However, the MESSENGER is never the MESSAGE.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Just the Facts Donnie

October 16 2013, 6:17 PM 

W.O.R.D. spells word: words are what people S.P.E.A.K.

LOGOS (Word) is not a people but what God speaks as the REGULATIVE PRINCIPLE governing the universe: God SPEAKS and it is DONE.

In one sense my WORDS are ME: my breath (spirit) is me but not another "people" like those with mental problems. If my breath strikes an ear it becomes PHYSICIAL.

Word or LOGOS is the opposite of rhetoric, poetry, singing, playing, dancing or acting. Jesus articulated the WORD breathed into His FLESH. His "flesh" or lips is called a "double-edged sword." A double-edge sword is a figurative image to FOOL the FOOLISH says Jesus of all parables in Matthew 13.

Jesus became FLESH when He was GENERATED by God: when a person is Generated by God like the first and second Adam, we understand that that person did not exist before he was GENERATED. If Jesus is a BEGOTTEN Son of God then he did not exist until he was begotten. If Jesus NEVER spoke on His own then Jesus was NOT the WORD but the fleshly manifestation of the Word.

Think about this and maybe God will enlighten you.

If A becomes B that does not mean that B was A BEFORE he became B.

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"For I Came Down from Heaven"

October 16 2013, 7:17 PM 

Jesus became flesh when God sent Him from heaven to be born of a woman on earth. As Jesus said, "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me" (John 6:38 KJV). Jesus "came down from heaven." Deny what Jesus SAID, if you are so determined. That's what Jesus S.P.O.K.E. The Scriptues still stand as written.

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: "For I Came Down from Heaven"

October 17 2013, 2:46 AM 

Were the Father and the Son speaking to each other for an undetermined length of time until He sent His only begotten Son only two millenniums ago?

"For I came down from heaven" is what Jesus spoke on earth?

What did Jesus speak to the Father in heaven? Would it be something like: "Father, I am NOW Thy Son [of God] in heaven. I am also God [since] in the beginning, just like you, Father. When you send me from heaven to earth, as already the Son of God, Father, Thou shalt make me both Lord and Christ."

Now, that perception will make a good interactive drama.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: "For I Came Down from Heaven"

October 17 2013, 2:34 PM 

Jesus said that he as BREAD came down from heaven. You need to read the rest of the story.

Jesus didn't take the initiative to ecxplain that He, Jesus of Nazareth, came down from heaven. Both the question and the answer was that He was the BREAD that came down from heaven. You have to read the whole story: Jesus was not BREAD which was later made into Jesus any more than He was God's WORD named Jesus from all eternity.

Matthew 21:25 The BAPTISM of John, whence was it? from heaven, or OF men?
.....And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say,
.....From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
Matthew 21:26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

John's BAPTISM did not preexist in heaven: it was sent down from heaven

God sent quail and manna by natual means. Jesus is speaking parables to UNBELIEVERS who have no need to know.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him,
.....What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee?
.....what dost thou work?
John 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written,
.....He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

No, says Jesus, it was not Moses who gave LITERAL bread from heaven even though the quail and the manna were natural products God provided. However, the BREAD did not exist in a SPIRITUAL form.

John 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
.....Moses gave you not that bread from heaven;
.....but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

The Quail and Manna did not exist in heaven. What came down from heaven?

John 6:33 For the BREAD of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
John 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

It was the BREAD of God which came from heaven but the INSTRUMENTAL MEANS was the MAN Jesus of Nazareth. He was BREAD but only to fool the foolish

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the BREAD of life:
.....he that cometh to me shall never hunger;
.....and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:39 And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me,
.....that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
.....but should raise it up again at the last day.

Again, the answer fits the GRUMBLERS rather than being a fundamental, unprovoked doctrine by Jesus:

John 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

John 6:51 I am the living BREAD which came down from heaven:
.....if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever:
.....and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves,
.....saying, How can this man give us his FLESH to eat?
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
.....Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Those OF the World form whom Jesus does not pray nor does he speak in the LANGUAGE of the World. If Jesus came down from heaven as a MAN then Jesus came down from heaven as FLESH.

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said,
.....This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
John 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

Only certain apostles would see Jesus taken up into the clouds. The now glorified Jesus would take His "blood" into the heavenly tabernacle, receive the PROMISE of the Holy Spirit which is His ASSIGNMENT as the Spirit present Lord (Kurios) so that the Comforter is named Jesus Christ the Righteous. He is reigning in His invisible, inaudible Kingdom and as the MAN, the only mediator and intercessor.

John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

When Jesus filled the upper room with the sounds of BREATH and the sign of Fire the Apostles would understand

John 6:63 It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
.....the WORDS that I SPEAK unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE.

Peter refused to desert Jesus:

John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life

So the LOGOS in SPOKEN form which came down from heaven and the WORD of God is the only thing we have to offer and THAT is free of Charge (Isaiah 55) and selling your VERSION rather than teaching that which has been taught is called PROSTITUTION.

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Jesus is Coming Soon.....

October 16 2013, 12:18 PM 

Donnie said "John 1:1 says that it was "the Word" that "was made flesh" in the person of Jesus Christ. Why would you even attempt to change the truth into your notion which is: "... and Jesus became Jesus"

How about this Donnie......Jesus was the Word before He had a name.....thus He was called the the beginning. Verse 14 makes clear that the Word, Jesus, took on a human form (Flesh).

No Donnie, you can't claim that I am saying that Jesus became Jesus....because Jesus wasn't named UNTIL He became flesh. Before then He was/is the Word.

Donnie, do you enjoy this power trip that you are on by exhibiting your editing powers?. The point here is that you and Ken need to be edited too at times, but therein lies the can say anything you want to....slander and ridicule and claim it to be the this power trip worth it?

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Jesus is Coming Soon.....

October 17 2013, 3:11 AM 


We might call this Dave's parable:

"In the beginning was the Wind. A hundred years ago the Wind became a dog [he dwelt among us and became my pet--I named him 'Rescue.'"

Dave, take your time:

What was in the beginning -- was it the Wind or was it Rescue?
When the Wind became a dog, what happened to the Wind?
Who dwelt among us -- the Wind or Rescue the dog?

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(no login)

Re: Jesus is Coming Soon.....

October 17 2013, 8:23 AM 

Donnie's analogies get more ridiculous all the time. That's what makes this site enjoyable to read. happy.gif

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Jesus is Coming Soon.....

October 17 2013, 1:16 PM 


You refuse to understand the simplest illustration.

The unexposed or the open-minded will understand the analogy and be able to answer logical questions,

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(no login)

Re: Jesus is Coming Soon.....

October 17 2013, 3:40 PM 

No, they are ridiculous, which is why I enjoy reading them. Keep it up! happy.gif

[ . . . ]


Only your first paragraph in response to "Gotcha!" is sufficient. Good to know that you enjoy reading logic with ZERO comprehension.

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Oct 17, 2013 6:34 PM

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(no login)

Re: Jesus is Coming Soon.....

October 17 2013, 6:41 PM 

Oh, don't worry, Donnie. I comprende OK your so-called "logic." Even ridiculous and useless "logic" as yours can still be enjoyable. happy.gif


Right!!! Ridiculous and useless logic to someone who is incapable of rebuttal. There must be a lot of truth in: "You can't teach an old dog new tricks."

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Oct 17, 2013 7:16 PM

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(no login)

Re: Jesus is Coming Soon.....

October 17 2013, 7:44 PM 

[ . . . ]


Deviation from the topic has already ENDED.

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Oct 17, 2013 7:47 PM

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(no login)

Re: Jesus is Coming Soon.....

October 18 2013, 11:42 AM 

Donnie, you deviated from the topic with your ridiculous analogies. Now post this as your ridiculous [...], which means that you have no ridiculous rebuttal and that I've gotten your ridiculous GOAT--again. OH LOL!! happy.gif

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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

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5 Godly Elders
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2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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