Re: Jason Shepherd at Madison Part Z
|November 13 2013, 5:08 PM |
Plutarch, Symposiacs BOOK I used by Tom Burgess etal to prove the meaning of PSALLO but POINTING to homosexual PLUCKERS, confirmed that the God of the Jews (not Israelites) was Dionysus or Bacchus
Here Symmachus, greatly wondering at what was spoken, says: What, Lamprias, will you permit our tutelar god, called Evius, the inciter of WOMEN, famous for the honors he has conferred upon him by MADMEN, to be inscribed and enrolled in the mysteries of the JEWS?
Or is there any solid reason that can be given to prove Adonis to be the same with Bacchus? Here Moeragenes interposing, said: Do not be so fierce upon him, for I who am an Athenian answer you, and tell you, in short, that these two are the very same.
What they do within I know not; but it is very probable that they perform the rites of Bacchus [MARK of the New Wineskinners]. First they have little trumpets, such as the Grecians used to have at their Bacchanalia to call upon their gods withal.
Others go before them playing upon harps, which they call Levites, whether so named from Lusius or Evius,--either word agrees with Bacchus. [Bacchae: Dionysus = Bacchus = Evius = Bromius (all different names for the same god]
And I suppose that their Sabbaths have some relation to Bacchus; for even now many call the Bacchi by the name of Sabbi, and they make use of that word at the celebration of Bacchus's orgies. High up on the wall of their temple is a representation of the thyrsus and timbrels, which surely suits no other god than Bacchus.
Sorry that you missed Ezekiel 8 because Christ speaks ONLY through the Prophets and Apostles.
David as head of the worship of SABAZIAN Deities. The PRAISE word HALAL is most often used in the sense that a Warrior King and his Musical Warrior Levites would MAKE THEMSELVES VILE because defeat often meant abuse and then death.
Re: Jason Shepherd at Madison Part Z
|November 13 2013, 9:55 PM |
Coach said, "Bear with me Donnie, "the end justifies the means" if I can get Ken back in Church."
Ken said, "Then, you are ready to come to church with just a woman's blouse and then STRIP THAT OFF? Let us know: we can all make the trip."
Coach respectfully withdraws his offer. "The end DOES NOT justify the means"
Re: Jason Shepherd at Madison Part Z
|November 14 2013, 12:58 AM |
I'm really discombobulated now. I think I can make the trip.
I have a special request to make. Since you've quoted our brother Wayne Jackson quite a bit concerning the "Blessed Trinity," would you please provide articles written by the same pertaining to instrumental music?
Re: Jason Shepherd at Madison Part Z
|November 14 2013, 8:32 AM |
Donnie, I respect Wayne Jackson and agree with many of his articles. I think you and I have that in common. I do not agree with all of his articles. Again, I think you and I have that in common.
I am not a good writer and I tend to let others say what I believe. You are a gifted writer and can easily put your own thoughts in print.
I will not post Wayne Jackson's articles on IM because I respectfully disagree with him.
Sometimes I ask myself "why am I here"? I participate in other various forums. For some odd reason my quest here is to right the ship to a mainline COC standards. How strange is that? I shall reflect on "my mission" as I will be out of pocket in the near future.
Re: Jason Shepherd at Madison Part Z
|November 14 2013, 2:12 PM |
Congratulations: neither do I agree with Wayne Jackson or even close to 100% of people who get PAID for making the invisible kingdom become VISIBLE by their own logic and work. Wayne etc. sees it as a change form an instrumental PATTERN of God to a CHANGED form without INSTRUMENTAL patternis. Neither understand the meaning of a Christian or Ekklesia and I fail to see how a person can be in the kingdom without knowing its meaning or function.
Objection to Wayne Jackson:
Instruments for the worship of God are mentioned in the Scriptures; by your failure to use instruments, you have taken away from the teaching of the Bible (see Psa. 150:3-5). By your forbidding of instruments, you have added to the Scriptures. Therefore, you fall under the condemnation of Revelation 22:19.
Wayne Jackson: This response is fallacious indeed. In the first place, it was God who took away the Old Testament law as an authoritative standard for religious worship.
Regarding that system, Paul wrote, he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross (Col. 2:14). Moreover the verbal tense (perfect) suggests that the law has been removed permanently. The Mosaic law is not the standard for Christian worship. This means that if valid authority for the use of instrumental Christian worship is to be found, it will have to be found in the New Testament not the Old Testament.
Neither Wayne nor any "conservative" preacher that I have known or heard about has read the "old testament."
First, the only Spiritual Covenant was made by God in Christ to Abraham.
The Israelites FELL into instrumental idolatry at Mount Sinai. This was such a wicked treatment of a Spirit God that it was a sin without redemption.
Because of this TRANSGRESSION God IMPOSED the Law of Moses to regulate the lawless UNTIL He gave them kings in His anger to carry out the captivity and death sentence. In preparation of living IN Babylon, God turned them over to Babylonianism and even the temple was a Ziggurat or Tower of Babylon with the same God-abandoned Civil-Military-Clergy complex.
The Law of Moses as amplified in the five books said nothing about "musical instruments as worship." The LAW gave two silver trumpets to be used to send signals to the tribe. In Numbers 10 the use of "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" was outlawed along with sermonizing preaching.
There is no COMMAND by God to use musical instruments in the Law of the God-Abandoned Monarchy. The loud noise by 120 trumpets and maybe dozens of harp all playing the SAME NOTE is not, by we readers, called MUSIC. God called it Prophesying with instruments or soothsaying-sorcery which is used enterchangeably.
So Wayne Jackson and the TOTALITY of Church of Christ preachers manufactured in theology and making sermons is LYING when they say that the LAW COMMANDED INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC AS WORSHIP.
However, Jesus CHANGED the Law of Worship and failed to mention instruments. So, the mainline position is based on singing-only as a LEGAL command to TO WORSHIP. Neither do they know and will not be told that from the wilderness onward up to the Campbells, a church is NOT a worship center for ceremonial legalism. A Church of Christ is an ekklesia or synagogue which is clearly defined to EXCLUDE anything but reading and discussing RESOURCES handed down by a higher authority. The are not Prophet-Literate as was Timothy and man Gentiles and are still not WISE UNTO SALVATION. Christ outlaws any performance, seeking your own pleasure or even SPEAKING YOUR OWN WORDS.
PREACHING is defined as READING or speaking "that which is written for our learning." So, just remember that MANY or most are called or invited but FEW (almost none) are chosen or elected by being washed with water INTO the Word or into the school of Christ." Anyone who hallucinates making instrumental noise cannot KNOW and therefore cannot BE a Disciple of Christ or a Studen of Christ through the prophets and apostles. Not to worry, neither Jesus nor those who HEAR and obey are OF THE WORLD.
Law given because of Transgressions
|November 14 2013, 4:18 PM |
"Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made." Galatians 3:19. Abraham "believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness." Genesis 15:6.
The law is a lower form of spiritual blessing, added to regulate an unruly and disobedient people.
We were kept under guard by the law, until the seed was come by which we are saved by faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:23-24
Law is a regulator to monitor and channel the behavior of people who are motivated by fear of punishment. It is not a light to the inner man (faith) which we have in Jesus Christ. Every command in the Law of Moses must be investigated to determine what it regulated.
The ten commandments were unlocked by Jesus in the additional commandments of loving God (Deut. 6:5) and loving neighbor (Deut. 10:19), and Jesus identified this 11th and 12th commandments, which summarize the first 10. See Mark 12 for Jesus' summary of the great commandments.
Once we adopt the inner man attitudes of faith and love, everything becomes different.
Re: Law given because of Transgressions
|November 14 2013, 11:57 PM |
The 4th commandment in Exodus 20: "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work.... For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth ... and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
Would you explain to the reader if the Christian is/is not to observe the sabbath day in order to love God?
Another question is: Can we (a) love God and (b) love neighbor without the Ten Commandments? Christendom [i.e., generally speaking] believes that the law of 10 Commandments is applicable to Christians today just as "tithing" (the 10% requirement) is also.
|November 15 2013, 6:48 PM |
Of course, in a general kind of way the 10 commandments sat on the principle of love God and love man. I will try to explain 1st Day and 7th Day relative to the Old Testament and the New Testament.
The Sabbath Day (7th Day) was given specifically to the Hebrews as a Day of Rest, and today we meet on the 1st day of the week; so there is a discontinuation of the strict 7th Day observance. This became a critical issue in the Gospels, and the Sabbath Day was defined as a day which God gave to us so that we can do good. The Old Testament 10 commandments were engraven in stone, but the Law of Moses was nailed to the cross, as well as specific comments in the New Testament says that no one is to judge you in regard to food and drink, and of special days, and of Sabbath Days (Col. 2:16). Tithing would as you say be in the same category as the Old Testament Sabbath Day in that we are not under law but under grace and liberty.
However, I find it difficult to outright expunge the 10 commandments, and give them a fair hearing, since the moral aspects of the last six concerning the relationship of person to person, expresses well the command of Jesus "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" (Matt. 7:12), Jesus says, for "this is the Law and the Prophets."
The 10 commandments are listed elsewhere in the New Testament, but the Sabbath Day observance is never mentioned as one of them. This illustrates that the Sabbath Day observance was for Israel as a people, and personal for them since God rested after creating the earth according to Genesis chapter 1 and 2, but it was especially for the Hebrews because it was symbolic for the oppression they suffered as slaves in Egypt (Exodus chapter 1, 2, 3, and so forth). It would be good to describe every mention of keeping the commandments in the New Testament, and many of the 10 are mentioned, in fact throughout the New Testament almost all of them are mentioned. But the Sabbath Day and its ban on work and to keep it holy (separate) is not supported in the New Testament. However, the disciples early in the book of Acts did appear in the synagogues on the Sabbath Day, as did Jesus in his lifetime, but this was a time for worship during the life of Christ. But as the church began to realize that Christianity was separate from Judaism, the 7th, or Sabbath Day, disappeared and the Christians wholly worshipped on the first day.
Should our government demand that there is no time for religious observance, and seek to wipe out the first day as our worship day, then I think that we might begin to exalt that day in protection for our rights of religious freedom.
I do support the weekly observance of the Lord's Supper on every first day, since there is scriptural preference for this day, and it is my understanding that the second century Christians wrote that they had communion on every first day of the week, remembering Christ's ascension on that day.
"Thou Shalt Not" vs. "Thou Shalt"
|November 16 2013, 3:15 AM |
Very well explained!!!
The old law is essentially a set of "thou shalt not" commandments. The new law -- actually replacing the old -- is a set of "thou shalt" commands: love God; love neighbor.
One position which may be considered "extreme" is this: are we to limit the love of God to the three "thou shalt nots" (while omitting the sabbath observance)? Can we truly say that the 5 or 6 "thou shalt not do this to thy neighbor" commands are sufficient? There is an abundance of evil deeds against mankind that are not forbidden in the old law.
There is good reason, I believe, for the abolishing of the old law in its entirety, including the "thou shalt not do any work on the sabbath day." It follows that the overall law of love (of God and neighbor) is plenary in itself without any or all of the 10 commandments. Without the 10, the new law of LOVE does not kill, steal, etc.
I concur that the observance of the Lord's Supper is on the first day of the week as the first century Christians did. "Do this in my memory" speaks of commemorating the sacrifice and death of our Savior.
Re: Jason Shepherd at Madison Part Z
|November 15 2013, 12:11 AM |
"... when they say that the LAW COMMANDED INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC AS WORSHIP."
Plus: When they contrast that old command with "there is no command in the New Testament for instrumental music."
Fact is that while certain of God's "followers" did their instrumental practices in their "gatherings," INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC WAS NEVER COMMANDED in the Old Testament dispensation.
(Now ... this may awaken Dave Fields!!!)
Re: Jason Shepherd false Shepherd at Madison Part A
|November 14 2013, 4:35 PM |
Most of the "music wars" are conducted by people protecting turf God did not give them to protect. Certainly since Jesus paid it all there is no commanded DOLE in the Bible or most church history. Therefore, as Paul warned when he said that the "giving" was NOT COMMANDED, they use extortion to collect money to spend on themselves rather than sending out evangelists and supporting the poor and widows INSTEAD of telling them they have to tithe out of their welfare check.
It is a crushing thing to have to confess what God made absolutely certain: that is the thesis that it is not possible for a professional religionist to know or much care about the only document which defines the Christian Discipline: A school of Christ being trained for the Spiritual world prophecies by Christ and made more certain or certified by Jesus of Nazareth whom God made to be both Lord and Christ.
Jesus commanded that we NOT pay for the Free Water of the Word.
He commanded us NOT to gather to seek our own pleasure (the only thing music supplies) NOT speak our own Words.
Of the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites (speakers, singers and instrument players) Jesus identified as the SONS of the Devil because they speak on their own.
The One Piece Pattern for the ekklesia-synagogue is to PREACH the Word by READING the Word for Comfort and Doctrine. Paul said that we LEARN and are COMFORTED by Scripture when we use "one mind and one mouth to speak that which is written for our LEARNING." Songs, instruments and self-speak sermons are NOT performed for out learning "that which is written for our learning."
Paul said that a SINCERE (not a hypocrite) person does not CORRUPT THE WORD. That means SELLING your own words, jokes and embarasing praise singing. The same word means a HYPOCRITE. Heredotus said the way to NEUTER warriors was to make them hucksters, wear kneeboots and sing and play instruments. To Cyrus, "you will soon see them turned into women."
HOW COULD ANY ONE READ ACTS 7 AND SAY THAT GOD COMMANDED INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC AS WORSHIP UNDER THE LAW. You COULD NOT unless you are a MERCHANT selling your own snake oil.
Ken's comments on Acts 7
|November 14 2013, 10:15 PM |
Ken has given us a mouth-full--it's up to us to determine if we want to wade through it.
I think he says that the Law was done away with, and that God changed the rules of worship in leaving the Old Testament and installing his New Covenant. I do see these points from Acts 6-7.
1. The Synagogue of the Freedman, Cyrenians, and Alexandrians rose up to charge Stephen with: (a) teaching against the temple and seeking to destroy it, (b) teaching against the law, (c) destroying the customs passed down from the Old Testament.
2. Stephen defends himself by saying:
(a) The promise was made to Abraham not to Israel, specifically, the covenant of circumcision. This came before the Law, so that it is a higher and earlier covenant.
(b) Various representatives of the establishment in the Israelite nation had obstructed God's will from the beginning, with Joseph resisted by the patriarchs. This is a stab at the religious authorities.
(c) Moses was resisted by the people of Israel, but went on the give them the "living oracles" (Acts 7:38). Moses' mission was to deliver the people of Israel from oppression. So Jesus would deliver His people from the oppressive religious and military authorities (This is Ken's Civil/Military/Clergy complex).
(d) The "living oracles" do not include the physical aspects of the Old Testament, since the temple is ruled out, with God not dwelling in temples made with hands (Acts 7:48). This is Ken's aversion from non-teaching elements in the New Testament worship. The starry host of heaven represents the replacement of God for works of the hands (Acts 7:41-43). Our "starry host of heaven" (v. 42) can refer to any imaginative object that stirs our imaginations in leaving the "living oracles."
We would spend some time on the meaning of the "living oracles" and we can assume that they refer not to the objective nor concrete elements on the Old Testament, but more to the heart and knowledge embedded in that system--we would say to the love foundation of the Law, that of loving God and neighbor--and this is that of the Old Testament that continues to live, even in the Christian age.
(e) God's dwelling place the entire universe, and was to dwell in the human heart, by a circumcision in the heart and ears (Acts 7:51).
(f) The "living oracles" does not include concrete objects, such as candles, objective images (idols, statues, pictures, moving pictures), nor useless sounds that reflect emotion devoid of "living oracles." The "tabernacle of testimony" (Acts 7:44) was made according to a pattern (the structure of animal sacrifice and the entire Old Testament worship rituals). This tabernacle was delivered to David and Solomon, but even though Solomon built a house for it, this was not by the hand of David, but by Solomon a man "not of God's heart." The futility of building a house is obviated by the fact that any Biblical scholar even in Old Testament time should know that "God does not dwell in houses made by human hands" (Acts 7:48).
I'm not sure how Ken interlaces these facts with instrumental music, but I would guess by (1) the facts that instruments are an object, and (2) the departure from the "living oracles" is made relatively easily by mind-numbing noise, where reason goes out the door.
The issue of Psalm 150 is still there, but it can be placed in the same category of the "tabernacle of testimony" which was to be the forerunner of the "house of God" built by Solomon. God does not dwell in the instrument any more than God dwelt in the house Solomon built for him.
The Savior for the competitive Church of Christ is the promise of gaining thousands of adherents through mind-numbing noise, where God is thought to dwell in the modern temple made with noise. The victory of numbers can be completed, but as a Pyrrhic victory. As a general stated in antiquity "one more victory and we will have lost the war." The Savior is not the Lord as we know him, but the Savior of the competitive Church of Christ the number of attendees on the bulletin board. This is the "golden calf."
Re: Ken's comments on Acts 7
|November 15 2013, 8:55 AM |
Humility, finally we can understand Ken's comments. Keep up the good work!
Re: Ken's comments on Acts 7
|November 16 2013, 8:17 PM |
Thanks for clearing that up: My training and writing technical handbooks of my own products tends to be cryptic. I don't have time or talent to go beyond the text and definitions and examples in the ancient examples. I got my start in study hall reading dictionaries.
Acts 6 and 7
|November 16 2013, 10:50 PM |
A key verse in Stephen's defense is chapter 7:51:
"You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
Coupled with chapter 7:8,
"And He gave him the covenant of circumcision; and so Abraham became the father of Isaac, and circumcised him on the eighth day; and Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob of the twelve patriarchs.
the rite of circumcision preceded the Law of Moses. Israel was such a failure in keeping the Law of Moses, and in addition they could also look at circumcision to give them privilege with God. This was also a failure, Stephen argues, since they were uncircumcised in heart and ears. Resisting the Holy Spirit was equivalent to dishonoring the "living oracles."
The circumcision of hearts and ears was what God wanted all along. Feigned adoration in noisy worship was void, since they lacked the circumcision of heart and ears.
The temple was not sufficient, since God does not dwell in temples made with hands (7:48).
The law was not sufficient, since it was preceded by the rite of circumcision beginning with Abraham.
Even if the law were sufficient, it falls short in that not all of it is "living oracles." These living oracles were the condition of the heart and ears.
If circumcision is the necessary quality, it is not physical, but spiritual, the circumcision of the heart and ears.
The Starry Host
|November 14 2013, 10:28 PM |
Qualifications for a Church leader for the Emerging Church of Christ.
(1) Wear holy pants--make sure the dye is faded, and that there are some rips, tears, and holes in it.
(2) Be sure that there are no quiet times during the worship--after all these sheep need shepherding. There is nothing that we can learn from them, and we try to escape just after worship to avoid any conversation.
(3) Make noise with tapping the toe, and with snapping the fingers.
(4) Alienate much of the membership by something that's never been done before.
(5) Eliminate any differences in the bread and fruit of the vine on the Lord's Supper.
(6) Quote Old Testament passages that we like.
(7) Don't mention repentance, ever. Someone may think that we are judgmental, besides we don't want to hurt anyone's self image.
(8) Don't refer to anyone as a source that is not currently alive. This way we can be up-to-date.
(9) Add to the bank-rolls of corporations on the West Coast. After all they have crowds.
(10) All elders should delegate their guidance to those that are not prejudiced by anything that happened over two years ago.
Re: The Starry Host
|November 15 2013, 12:26 AM |
There are 10. What a coincidence? Should we refer to this as the Emergent Church's 10 Commandments?
They are happening even as we speak.
I'm afraid that the elders [I think you meant: the kinder and gentler "shepherds"] delegate their leadership functions to the "Worship Leader," who leads the congregants into God's "holy presence," and the Praise Team [the "progressive" church of Christ CHOIR].
Re: The Starry Host
|November 15 2013, 11:00 AM |
"Should we refer to this as the Emergent Church's 10 Commandments?"
Is this a "spoof" on God's 10 Commandments?
The Starry Host
|November 15 2013, 11:37 AM |
There should be 10 to get it dimensioned like the 10 commandments of Moses.
Perhaps you can think of some better ones.
These, if we can develop them, will be the creed of the Emerging Church of Christ
The 10 Commandments for Worship Leaders in the Emergent Church (of Christ)
We'd better think about all this clearly.
There are two church-to-church fellowships now, the Emerging Church of Christ, the Traditional Church of Christ.
The Emerging Church of Christ is now in a struggle with the Community Church advocates in its fellowship (membership).
The Traditional Church of Christ is now dealing internally with a more conservative group in its membership.
The Churches of Christ as we know them may divide into four or more groups.
|November 15 2013, 12:35 AM |
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the new minister break #8 when he made reference to the great and first major change agent, Ira North? "We must be propetially young...The gospel can handle change, even accelerated change!" I.N.
I personally love the changes that have been made and look forward to even greater changes in the near future...accelerated changes!