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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: A list of churches that CM approves

September 13 2014, 2:48 AM 

Dave,

You know exactly what I mean by "personal." Simply: others (like the Praise Team) can't do it for you.

You address me as "Donnie" because that's how I have identified myself when I post. BTW, "Anonymous" is automatically generated when a post submitted does not have "Your Name __________________" filled in.

When I respond to a poster, I sincerely would like to address by name or some kind of identification other than "Anonymous" or "Annie Mouse." No, I do not enjoy calling someone "Annie." I'd prefer to respond to you or address you as "Dave" or "Servant" without having to rely on the IP address or your style of writing.

(Ken was probably already relaxed and resting when I published your post. happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif )

 
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Justice
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: A list of churches that CM approves

September 13 2014, 1:37 PM 

Donnie, I'm curious, do you believe as Ken does that local Church membership is not required? Are you a member of a local church of Christ?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: A list of churches that CM approves

September 13 2014, 11:00 PM 

Justice,

God's church is worldwide -- which necessitates local churches or congregations to exist and the local church's elders to teach that which they've been taught.

The real membership list is in "the book of life" -- of those who serve the Lord, laborers and fellowlaborers (Philippians 4:3).

Rev. 3:5 clearly states: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Rev. 20:15 avers: "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

 
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ken sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.197.222.189

Re: A list of churches that CM approves

September 13 2014, 3:21 PM 

If I were any more relaxed my wife would call the undertaker: I have already given him my permission to use my old 1997 suit and cut it up to fit. I didn't need it when I knew that Hohenwald church was on the purpose driven cult path to "divert" my very last violation of the law and laid by at the elders feet!

Annie Mouse is SARGE and he believes in command authority.

It turns out that only a few believers in the larger cities assembled ONCE A WEEK to Rest, Read and Rehearse the Word. Most believer rarely assembled with at the DESIGNATED CENTER. Early on, church leaders understood that they would have to add entertainment to call the flock in from many days travel and they usually met all day or several days. The SINGING proponents on the Wineskin forum misquote historic scholars and then the singing was among the monastic groups which, in Annie Mouse's example met DAILY.

I assemble with people all over the world by GOING into the world to post that which has been posted. I wonder how many gather together with Sarge and hold their breath until the song and sermon are over have HIDDEN the Word or food from the lambs there only of breathings and threatenings for those with no ROLE and no DOLE. If Sarge is one of those APT elders he will "teach that which has been taught" and He will PREACH the Word by READING the Word, recite a hymn and GO OUT. No closing prayer. happy.gif

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
107.142.253.246

Re: A list of churches that CM approves

September 13 2014, 5:32 PM 

Ken said "I assemble with people all over the world by GOING into the world to post that which has been posted."

is that akin to 'that which is written?' NO....I don't think so, and NO you are NOT assembling when you post here on the computer. It is not nor never will be assembling. Nice try though.

Hey Donnie....again, call me whatever your thoughts can conjure up. You seem to enjoy it, so if I can be the brunt of your slander, at least it gives the beautiful Lord's church at Madison a break from your slander.

Let me ask something. You mentioned "A true test of their (the performers') kind of worship should be to face our heavenly Father and "perform" in His presence with their microphones [imagine God's reaction] ..."

Since I would never assume to know what God would say or how He would react, and even with His Words in writing and feeling privileged to read what he has done in the PAST, tell me what you think He would say, or how he would react now. I haven't heard of anyone since the apostles that were inspired enough to write down the Words of God, so please inform me of how you think He would react. What shall we cal this new addition? After or before Revelations?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: A list of churches that CM approves

September 13 2014, 10:17 PM 

Anonymous [Dave],

You are David Fields, a.k.a. "Dave" or "Servant" or "Servant for Him" [in the past]. FYI, to a certain extent, I have been keeping up with IP addresses of a number of posters. I have also attempted to familiarize myself with a poster's writing style. A couple of ways to keep my sanity when I respond to posters.

"Coach" initiated this thread, for which I am thankful. Coach has transitioned to "Sarge" along the way -- which was just fine. He now identifies himself as "Justice," and Justice has identified himself with no fear or shame in every post he's submitted up to this point -- just an observation on my part. I respect him for that.

Whatever "your thoughts can conjure up." OK, since you're that irritated by being addressed as "Annie" or "Annie Mouse" [CM's ID for "Anonymous"], I'll address you as "Anonymous [Dave]" when you don't append your name to your post.

Nonetheless, authorship of a post or message is the preferred way.

Speaking of God's reaction to man's conjured up ideas of worship performances, all I can say is what the Scripture says -- "... whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear" (Heb. 12:28).


 
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Justice
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: A list of churches that CM approves

September 14 2014, 1:15 PM 


Hebrews 10

24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

****************

As far as Ken is concerned, it might as well be Black Print on Black Paper.

 
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Justice
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: A list of churches that CM approves

October 3 2014, 5:02 AM 

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.197.222.189

Re: A list of churches that CM approves

September 13 2014, 7:37 PM 

We DISCIPLES (students) of CHRIST can read BLACK text on WHITE paper. We know from the garden of Eden because the serpent was a Musical Enchanter(ess) derived from brass or copper which gave wicked to make them give them their cows and daughters in return for their making the feel that the gods were gyrating all of their pleasure centers. The Spirit of Christ called him-her-it "the singing and harp-playing prostitute" and we know that a prostitute is anyone who sells any of their body parts as an agent of the "gods."

The last message was that the "fruits" as craftsmen, singers and instrument players were called SORCERERS and the will be CAST ALIVE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.. If you go to the back cover of your bible and flip backward to Revelation 17f YOU will know why WE are dogmatic certain.

I told you about The Book of Enoch and lots of literature contemporeneous with the Bible and Clay tablets much older that when you have been seduced by the Devil you are led into mixed-sex choirs, wearning of apparel or clergy robes and homosexuality even within your family. Paul defined that in Romans 1.

[linked image]
[linked image]


The ANTI-Regulative Principle at Wineskins.or are promoting a second front or a SECOND COHORT at Pepperdine USING Mike Cope and now Jeff Walling. The First Cohort was led by Rubel Shelly and Mike Cope in the OLD New Wineskings magazine. I will post some of the HIDDEN MESSAGES of a COHORT shortly led by Rick Gibson at Pepperdine. No content with simply turning their coat they are making another effort to SQUASH the Churches of Christ who foolishly founded any para-church institution.

Here is the PATTERN of those saying that a spirit commanded them to impose instrumental praise with a threat to those who do not take the mark,

[linked image]

Isaiah 30 Christ defines the PROPHETIC TYPE so we know when God is driving His enemies into HELL.








    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 99.197.222.189 on Sep 13, 2014 7:50 PM


 
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Anonymous
(no login)
107.142.253.246

Re: A list of churches that CM approves

September 13 2014, 9:42 PM 

Ken,
If you actually ever did what you say you do....'Speak that which is written,' instead of hurling insults at Mike Cope, Reubel Shelly, Jeff Walling, Rick Gibson, you forgot Max Lucado this time (save something for tomorrow), and quoting ASSUMED Scripture (Enoch), you might get somewhere.
Sorry that I work your dander up, but simply put....you say one thing but do another.
You assemble, but you don't
You speak that which is written, but you don't
You quote recorded history, but false history (a history of mythical gods and demons---pan is NOT a real person and it only represents what you have it to be).
You say you love Scripture, yet time and time again you make it what YOU want it to be, turn it around to fit your opinions instead of letting God say what He really said.
I could go on.....


'Now is the time for all good men (and Donnie too) to come to the aid of their countrymen.'

I am a sitting duck, ain't I?

Do you prefer 6, 7, or 8 buckshot?



 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.197.222.189

Rick Gipson Pepperdine leadership Initiatives.

September 13 2014, 10:25 PM 

Rick Gipson has recruited Mike Cope and now Jeff Walling to form a new COHORT meaning an attack on the church and Scripture. I have finished a few notes even defining a COHORT which defines the new STAFF-STUFFED- ministry team ministers defacto deaconesses.

http://www.piney.com/Rick.Gipson.Pepperdine.Launches.Leadership.Initiatives.html

The Greek understanding of a COHORT is a CODE word which Rick Gipson does not grasp but those in the NO will flee Babylon.

You don't raise my pulse a half beet (picked).

If you are a sitting duck does that mean you are a QUACK? Remember the FROG SPIRITS in Revelation? I can find you some.



    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 99.197.222.189 on Sep 13, 2014 10:27 PM


 
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Anonymous
(no login)
107.142.253.246

Re: Rick Gipson Pepperdine leadership Initiatives.

September 14 2014, 2:30 AM 

Not even a half beet? Then why, after I post, your penmanship goes from crazy to hateful?
Ya know Ken, you may actually have something there. Most of the time your writings are BOTH hateful and incoherent, so if your heartbeat stays high all the time I certainly can't raise it any. Watch that though.....raising your heartbeat with exercise is good. Stress is another story.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Rick Gipson Pepperdine leadership Initiatives.

September 14 2014, 1:30 PM 

"Then why, after I post ...."

I???

Who is "Anonymous"? sad.gif

No, the above is not Justice's post -- just to let everyone know.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: A list of churches that CM approves

September 14 2014, 1:10 PM 

The list of churches has been updated (cf. the initial response above to the request for the list).

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.197.222.189

Re: A list of churches that CM approves

September 14 2014, 2:25 PM 

I assumed that Annie was Sarge. He pokes me (for more than a decade) and I poke him back. So, if Annie will give us a name we can be kinder and gentler.

As for the churches notice that with most of the churches:

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

The elect are those that Jesus CHRIST added to the Church: He is the head of the body the church. Within the context we understand that the church of God is the Church of Christ:

1 Peter 5:14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.

We are saved BY FAITH
For (what I mean is) those who have been baptized INTO Christ have put on or been clothed with Christ.

So The church belongs to Christ and when people REMOVE Christ from their public confession because it is offensive they have denied Him so that they can conform to the Baptist theology as with Max Lucado and hire a Baptist preacher for your stolen flock and property. Unfortunately they did quite follow the Purpose Driven Pattern (as with my local group) and get the property WELL FINANCED before announcing that "WELL, WE need to tell YOU that we always had a hidden agenda." That was also the premature leak which failed at Madison.

 
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Justice
(no login)
108.230.196.85

A list of churches that CM should approve

September 26 2014, 1:14 PM 


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: A list of churches that CM should approve

September 27 2014, 12:28 AM 

Thanks, Justice.

The link is appropriate.

Just a reminder: You will see the following on this page just above the INDEX. Donnie [who?] prepared this presentation that was derived from one issue of Spiritual Sword. Check it out.


__________________________________


The Community Church Movement


"A SPECIAL PRESENTATION"


"Thanks to the Spiritual Sword, one of the largest read Church of Christ publications, we have been granted permission to bring you a FREE web presentation that would normally only be available to subscribers
of the Spiritual Sword.


Ten honorable men of the Church of Christ, bring their writing talents together to give you knowledge and
valuable information in this series.
Click on the above link."


__________________________________

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.197.222.189

Re: A list of churches that CM should approve

September 27 2014, 2:54 PM 

Donnie, I spent quite a bit of time with my tree man this morning: we agreed on so many things and he is a street preacher as a reproach to most who don't have a GO button and don't venture far from the trough.

I decided to join up and endorse him when he told me that God set the earth on a solid foundation so that it does not move: the sun and planets revolve around the earth. I checked and found that the earth CAME UP this morning and is moving across the sky.

That's a little sounder foundation than that God created the whole universe 6,000 years ago but needs men to make Him seem literate. They think that a Black Hole is a collection plate.

 
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Justice
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Ekklesia Revisited (Wayne Jackson)

October 3 2014, 5:59 AM 

Ekklesia Revisited

by Wayne Jackson

When Jesus met with his disciples near Caesarea-Philippi, he inquired concerning how others were identifying him. Several opinions were proffered. He then pressed for their view. Peter responded, confessing Jesus as “the Christ, the Son of God.” The Lord pronounced a blessing upon his apostle and declared that upon this “rock” (the truth of that declaration) he would build his church.

The Greek term for “church” is ekklesia (found 114 times in the New Testament). In a Christian context, the word is employed in four senses:
1.It represents the body of Christ worldwide, over which the Lord functions as head (Matthew 16:18; Ephesians 1:22; 1 Timothy 3:15).
2.The expression can refer to God’s people in a given region (Acts 9:31, ASV, ESV).
3.Frequently, it depicted a local congregation of Christians (1 Corinthians 1:2; Revelation 1:11).
4.“Church” could also signify a group of the Lord’s people assembled for worship (1 Corinthians 14:34-35).

For years gospel preachers have called attention to the etymology of ekklesia. The word is a compound of two segments: ek, a preposition meaning “out of,” and a verb, kaleo, signifying “to call”—hence, “to call out.”

For a good while some scholars have disputed this. A few recent voices within the church echo this sentiment. Some rather stridently allege that our earlier brethren have not “intensively studied the languages of Scripture” and that they have been “irresponsible.” Supposedly, they argued for a meaning of ekklesia that is not consistent with the New Testament use. These new voices contend that ekklesia “does not mean ‘the called out’ as some mistakenly suggest,” and “it never meant that” (emphasis added). A recent article in the Gospel Advocate vigorously presses for this conclusion.


“Many adhere to the view that ekklesia means the ‘called out.’ They emphasize a complete theological thought, namely that the church is composed of those who are called out of the world (the kingdom of darkness) and are called into the body of Christ (the saved). Others, including me, disagree with loading the word with such theological meaning based upon etymology. For these, etymology plays no role in determining the meaning of ekklesia in the New Testament. The definition is simply ‘assembly,’ ‘congregation,’ ‘meeting’ and ‘church’” (Redden, 2010, 30; emp. added).

The writer then calls attention from a number of scholarly sources to the danger of going overboard in the matter of etymology, which most serious Bible students recognize. What the writer failed to mention, however, is that there is a considerable body of evidence directly antagonistic to the premise of his article regarding the term ekklesia.

Most concede that the original etymology is “called out,” but, it is contended, with the passing of time the root meaning faded away and gave place simply to “assembly, gathering, congregation.”

My criticism is not that these brothers are uncomfortable with the “called out” sense of the term — that is their privilege, however incorrect I believe it to be. It is their inflexible view, one that ridicules a considerable body of scholarship (that conflicts with their personal perspective) that I feel is misguided. Either they are unaware of the wider range of scholars who dispute their theory, or else they have fixated on a position and are not open to any other possibility.

A Broader Scholastic View

In the third edition of his Historical Grammar, A. T. Robertson stated that “originally ekklesia was a ‘calling out’ of the people,” but “that usage soon passed away.” He opted for “assembly,” but conceded that there are New Testament passages “where the idea of assembly is impossible,” e.g., Acts 8:3 (1919, 174). J. W. Roberts argued the “assembly”-only theory in 1972 (27-36), as did Everett Ferguson two decades later (1996, 130ff). Respectfully, I would like to offer the following response.

First, the idea of “called out” and an “assembled” body are not mutually exclusive expressions. The single term can embrace both ideas. The renowned scholar Adolf Deissmann stated that ekklesia was used with “the certain conviction that God had separated from the world His ‘saints’ in Christ, and had ‘called’ or ‘convened’ them to an assembly, which was ’God’s assembly,’ ’God’s muster,’ because God was the convener” (1927, 112).

Again:


Throughout the Greek world and right down to NT times (cf. Acts 19:39), ekklesia was the designation of the regular assembly of the whole body of citizens in a free city-state, “called out” (Gr, ek, “out,” and kalein, “to call”) by the herald for the discussion and decision of public business (Lambert 1929, 651).

J. H. Thayer described it as “a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place; an assembly” (1968, 195-196; emphasis added). In his classic essay on ekklesia in Kittel’s remarkable work, Schmidt, who sometimes seems self-conflicting, nonetheless wrote:


The citizens [in Greek society] are the ekklesia, i.e., those who are summoned and called together by the herald. This teaches us something concerning the biblical and Christian usage, namely, that God in Christ calls men out of the world (1965, 513).

Again:


The founding of the ekklesia by Jesus at Mt. 16:18, to which appeal is so often made, consists solely and simply in this process of separating and concentrating His band of disciples (526).

The noted British scholar, Nigel Turner, described the first-century ekklesia as “an invited concourse of people” (1981, 68; emphasis added). R. C. H. Lenski contended that the etymological sense of ekklesia still lingered in New Testament literature. He declared that the ekklesia consists of all “who are called out of the world in the kingdom of Christ’s own” (1943, 627). The celebrated McClintock & Strong Cyclopedia records:


The meaning of the word ekklesia would thus seem to be, in the N.T., the whole company of God’s elect, those whom he has called to be his people under the new dispensation, as he did the Israelites under the old (1968, 322; emphasis added).

G. W. Kirby, distinguished scholar of Cambridge University, observed that ekklesia is used in the Greek Old Testament for the assemblies of Israel when they “gathered before the Lord for religious purposes.” He goes on to point out that “the Jews had been ‘called out’ from the nations to be God’s special people (Rom. 9:4)” (1975, 846). In his discussion of Matthew 16:18, D. A. Carson, a recognized scholar at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, said that “the messianic reign is calling out the messianic people” (1984, 369; emphasis added).

William Barclay alluded to the common idea that ekklesia refers to a “body of people who have been ‘picked out’ from the world.” He says:


It has not in it that exclusive sense. It means a body of people who have been “summoned out” of their homes to come and meet with God; and both in its original Greek and Hebrew usages, that sense was not exclusive but inclusive (1964, 70; emphasis added).

In other words, both ideas, “out of the world” and “summoned to assemble,” are inherent in the original word. “Usually the Greek term represents God’s people as distinguished from others, thus called out (ek ‘out’ and kletos ‘called’) of the world” (Myers 1987, 215).

It is very difficult to see how either the term “assembly” or “congregation” can, in any fair sense of those terms, be applied to the church on a universal scale. The universal church is never assembled. It is not an unassembled assembly. Cremer defined ekklesia in its universal aspect as “the entire congregation of all who are called by and to Christ, who are in the fellowship of His salvation” (1962, 334; emphasis added). The teaching that Christians have been called from the world into a relationship with Christ is profuse in New Testament literature (Acts 2:39; 1 Corinthians 1:26-29; Ephesians 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:14; 2 Peter 1:10). These texts perfectly complement the meaning of the original term rendered “church” in the New Testament.

In his recently published book, Mounce’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, William D. Mounce, former professor of New Testament and director of the Greek language program at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary and New Testament chair of the English Standard Version, says that ekklesia signifies “to call out”—so “the church is the ‘called-out ones’ of God” (2006, 110).

It is quite possible that some who have fallen under the influence of a few scholars who have a restricted view of the Greek term ekklesia need some moderation and balance in their discussions of this important biblical word. Respectable scholarship does not rule out viable options that may vary from their preference.

 
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Scripture
(no login)
23.117.130.209

Ekklesia Revisited (Wayne Jackson)

October 4 2014, 11:35 AM 

With just a superficial reading, there appears to be some problem with Wayne Jackson's article.

Primarily, if the church is Christ's body, and we are baptized and therefore into Christ, then we are in the church.

Since the church is his body, according to Paul in Ephesians, those in Christ are in His church.

We do not have to be in an earthly "assembly" to be in that body.

This would mean that some "isolated" Christian would be in that body, although they are not identified with a local assembly.

"Church" does not means a literal "assembly" but references the total body of Christ.

I would suspect that Wayne Jackson's article would lead one to the "community church" creed, which says that the church is not manifest outside the local (community) assembly. See Madison's creed and the City Church, Seattle, to see the similarities with Wayne Jackson.

Extreme congregationalism has contributed to the divisions within the Churches of Christ.




 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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