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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 6 2014, 3:43 AM 

Bill,

Here's a separate question (different from the question about the "two" spirits).

Speaking of "the [holy] Spirit OF ___________" ... I would like to refer to the previous "for example" I presented above, about which you made NO COMMENT whatsoever.

So, let me ask you this: In the use of the preposition "of" in the expression "the [holy] Spirit OF the Lord Jesus Christ," which of the following usages is more meaningful and relevant:

(a) "the box OF candy" ["candy" is not the "owner"]
-------- or ------------
(b) "the mind/spirit OF Christ" ["the mind/spirit" belongs to "Christ"]?

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.245.110

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 2 2014, 9:04 AM 

It appears that prepositions, especially "OF," really have you churning. I wonder how many preachers would devote a whole sermon's worth of time just to "OF" and how many congregants would stay awake during that time. Many congregants would probably end up thinking, "Say what? This guy has finally lost it!" happy.gif



==================================

You may be one of those biblical scholars [and Trinitarians], Dr. William Crump.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Jan 3, 2014 3:42 PM


 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.242.238

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 3 2014, 5:24 PM 

Frankly, there is nothing wrong or sinful about being a biblical scholar and/or a Trinitarian. If using "Trinity" to describe Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is a sin because "Trinity" is not found in the canonical text, then using "Holy Bible" to describe the written Word of God is also a sin, because "Holy Bible" is also not found in the canonical text.

If people feel comfortable perceiving the Holy Spirit as an intimate part of God that cannot exist as a separate entity, that's perfectly fine. People are free to perceive the Holy Spirit that way. The Bible issues no condemnation for our individual perceptions of the Holy Spirit.

If people feel comfortable perceiving the Holy Spirit as a distinct and separate entity or even as a "person," that's also perfectly fine. People are free to perceive the Holy Spirit that way. The Bible issues no condemnation for our individual perceptions of the Holy Spirit.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 5 2014, 4:52 AM 

Bill,

We're not discussing "nothing wrong or sinful."

We're not discussing "Trinity" as a word not found in the Bible.

We're not discussing "Holy Bible" not being in the canonical text.

We're not discussing how comfortable people feel about perceptions.

We're very interested in your presenting to us what you believe the Bible teaches regarding "the holy Spirit OF God" (Ephesians 4:30). There are scores of passages that use the same [or similar] expression in the entire Bible. To have THAT MANY (70+) PASSAGES using the preposition "OF" relative to "the Spirit OF the living God" must be very significant.

We will publish without any hesitation YOUR belief [or "YOUR preference" if that makes it easier for you to express your view] and your defense of such a belief.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.203.133

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 5 2014, 10:02 AM 

Donnie, we most certainly are talking about the Trinity and the Holy Spirit. Your lead post in this thread begins by listing at least eight examples using the preposition "OF" with the Holy Spirit. One principal (and maybe the underlying) purpose of this thread is to debunk any beliefs that the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity, because, in your mind, "the Spirit of God/Christ/Lord" (etc.) ONLY means possession and nothing else.

I'm here to tell readers that "OF" can have other interpretations. You have your own personal interpretation; let other people have theirs. There is nothing wrong with ANY of those interpretations.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 6 2014, 1:24 PM 

Yes, we are talking about the Trinity, but you missed the specific reference I made to: "We're not discussing 'Trinity' as a word not found in the Bible."

Actually, you missed the "underlying" purpose of this thread, which is to discuss another preposition -- "IN" -- as in the expression "God IN Christ." Did you read the part where I said:


OK, we are not discussing the troublesome preposition "OF" at this time -- it is being presented here only for your "recollection" as we are about to bring up another preposition that is also troublesome to many biblical scholars and Trinitarian followers.


But it's OK that we are discussing the preposition "OF" -- I firmly believe that the 70+ passages with that expression have references to "the spirit" [an improper noun], modified by the word "holy" [an adjective] as something "BELONGING TO." It is similar to other expressions such as "the bountiful love of God" or "the mind of the Lord" (I Cor. 2:16) or "the mind of Christ" (I Cor. 2:16).

It makes no sense whatsoever to segregate "the mind" (or "the holy spirit") of the Lord Jesus Christ and allow man's perception to GENERATE A SEPARATE BEING from the Lord as the Catholic Trinity espouses.

Is there really anything new about YOUR CONSTANT ASSERTION that "OF" can have other interpretations? Nothing. There are/have been various contradictory interpretations throughout time of many doctrinal issues, NEEDLESS TO SAY.

Let's not forget that we are yet to discuss the preposition "IN."

 
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Bill
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74.240.211.247

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 6 2014, 1:48 PM 

You seem to be overly concerned with both prepositions "OF" and "IN," but "OF" concerns you more. As far as I'm concerned, I have no problems with either one.

It's fine if you "firmly believe" that "the Spirit of God" refers to the Spirit that belongs to God and is not a separate entity. Right on! Go for it! I certainly won't fault you for that belief. That's your prerogative. Likewise, I "firmly believe" that the Holy Spirit IS a separate entity who also belongs to God at the same time. That's my prerogative.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Undermining Prepositions "OF" and "IN"

January 6 2014, 8:55 PM 

Your second paragraph, merely a statement of a premise, is not an argument. A devout Roman Catholic has the right to assert: "I believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, 'the Mother of God.'"

In your first paragraph, you [of all people, an avid grammarian] are undermining the significance of the "little" prepositions "in" and "of." (I'm reminded of a children's song: "Be careful little mouth what you say ... be careful little eyes what you see ... be careful little ears what you hear.")


There is a colossal difference between "OF" and "IS" in these expressions:

(1) "The holy Spirit OF God" (Ephesians 4:30)
------------------ VERSUS --------------------
(2) "The Holy Spirit IS God" (Man-made Trinity)

There is a colossal difference between "IN" and "IS" in these expressions:

(1) "God IN Christ Jesus" (II Cor. 12:19; Phil. 3:14; I Thess. 5:18)
------------------ VERSUS --------------------
(2) "God IS Christ Jesus" (Man's view of the "divinity" of Christ)

 
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Bill
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74.179.12.228

Re: Undermining Prepositions "OF" and "IN"

January 6 2014, 9:41 PM 

I gather you intend to spend the rest of your life using a spiritual microscope to dissect the Trinity and the Holy Spirit into heaven's version of "subatomic particles." You must have lots of time on your hands. happy.gif

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Undermining Prepositions "OF" and "IN"

January 6 2014, 10:37 PM 

No, I still work for a living, and as a disciple of Christ I try to devote as much time as possible to studying God's truth.

Meanwhile, I'd like to be an avid grammarian [like you? happy.gif ], but with more seriousness, specificity and accuracy in dealing with the scriptural content and context.

 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Undermining Prepositions "OF" and "IN"

January 6 2014, 9:51 PM 

Notice that God can put a LYING SPIRIT into a person and that person SPEAKS lies. Here are some examples:

1Kings 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth,
.....and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.
.....And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold,
.....the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets,
.....and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2Chronicles 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and
.....be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.
..... And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
2Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD
.....hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets,
.....and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
2Chronicles 36:22 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia,
..... that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,

Nehemiah 9:20 Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst.
Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth;
.....I will speak in the anguish of my spirit;
..... I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
Job 15:13 That thou turnest thy spirit against God,
.....and lettest such words go out of thy mouth?
Isaiah 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate:
.....for my mouth it hath commanded,
.....and his spirit it hath gathered them.
Isaiah 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD;
.....My spirit that is upon thee,
.....and my words which I have put in thy mouth,
.....shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed,
.....nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
2Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
.....whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
.....Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2 Thess. 2:9
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
.....because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2 Thess. 2:10
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion (tramps, erratic teachers, roving stars),
..... that they should believe a lie: 2 Thess. 2:11

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 3 2014, 5:38 PM 

I am waiting and searching for a modern, University-manufactured preacher who does not get puffed up when you say that:

The Spirit OF Christ is not another "people" required to make the inept Father-Son complex work.

Or:

ODING and PSALLOING is IN the heart or mind or "be silent" as you listen to the WORD SPOKEN.

I do not know of anyone--and the masses of professional religionism thinks that:

SPEAK that which is written for our LEARNING,
is NOW satisfied by SINGING that which is NOT for our learning but FOR performing an ACT.

Jesus said that the Doctors of the Law take away the key to knowledge. Scribes and Pharisees as doctors and hypocrites can be MARKED by anyone speaking out of their own head, singing or playing instruments. By definition by Christ in Ezekiel33 the EAGER AUDIENCE are also defined as hypocrites because the "singing and playing and self-speaking" is the MARK of those who have no intention of obeying.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.



 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 30 2014, 1:02 PM 

Again, in all pagan families of gods there if father, mother (spirit) and infant son: Christmas means that we do not want Him to grow up.

It is true that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Spirit is God because in historic trinity:

The Father conceives the WORD
The Father breathes (spirit)
The Father Articulates (Son) WORD because Jesus said that the WORDS were not His Own. Those who do not speak what the Son spoke cannot be SONS.

The Word AS God is imaged or articulated by the MAN Jesus of Nazareth. Therefore, Jesus said that HE had all of the Authority of Father, Spirit and Son imaged as ONE PERSON ONLY.

However, the neo-trinitarianism as Anti-Christian or denying that Jesus is the only IMAGE and AUDIBLE manifestation God.

They say that God the Father is a PEOPLE
They say that the Breath (Spirit) of God is a PEOPLE.
They say that the MAN Jesus was a PEOPLE.
They are ANTI-Christs because they spit in the face of the clear statements of fact.

Jude 1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
...to them that are sanctified by God the Father,
...and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:


The WORD sanctifies when it flows without additions or subtractions by the speaker of that which is written for our learning. That is because the WORD when articulated and written is CONGEALED SPIRIT.

And God [Theos] the Father MADE Jesus of Nazareth TO BE both Lord [Kurios] and Christ

Jude 21 Keep yourselves
...in the love of God, [Theos]
...looking for the mercy
...of our Lord [Kurios] Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jude 25 To
...the ONLY wise God [Theos] our Saviour,
...be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


Jesus images forth THEOS when He speaks and obeys the WORD which originates with the ONE GOD THE FATHER. Now, it is also blasphemy to say that Jude was too ignorant not to say that there are THREE GOD PERSONS ranked 1, 2, and 3 according to the LU version but with THEIR own centers of consciousness (spirit)





 
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Ken
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 2 2014, 11:56 AM 

By definition the neo-trinitarians are also the strongly deluded imposing "musical" performance as the definition of lying wonders. There is no reason that they should be permitted to grasp Prepositions 101a which is why they don't bother to PREACH the word by READING the Word for Comfort and doctrine as Christ commanded beginning in the wilderness.

If the translators had translated LITERALLY they would have said 'The BREATH of God." Jesus returned as Holy Spirit in the upper room and the WIND is BREATH. Jesus Breathed on the Apostles (only) and as Holy Spirit guided them into all truth which included the "memory" left for OUR learning.

I have heard or read all of the posts and sermons and I don't know of a single Ph.d who is ALLOWED to use PREPOSITIONS. For instance,

Paul said SPEAK one to another (external)
ODE and PSALLO (both negative words) IN the heart. Wouldn't you know it apparently there is little to no scholarship which does not say SING and make Melody WITH the heart or WITH a harp (Psallo does not allow wind or percussion instruments or guitar picks).

SPIRIT only remotely applies to demons or angels because the word GHOST did the "talking." In the text, God BREATHES and someone SPEAKS. If they say that "a" spirit told them that God commanded instrumental noise then we have recorded evidence to prove that it was Abaddon or Apollyon or the spirit OF Abaddon inspiring or LEADING the MUSES or his musical worship team: they were the LOCUSTS unleashed from hell to attack churches of Christ almost to the day of the END of the 6th day since Genesis defines the Creation of Light in battle with the DARKNESS of Babylonianism which has again been unleashed with "lusted after fruits" speaking, singing and playing instruments. John calls them SORCERERS who HAD once deceived the whole world. He said that they will/are Cast Alive into the Lake of Hell as the typical way to battle LOCUSTS or PARASITES.

[linked image]

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.204.180

It's All a Matter of Individual Perspective

January 3 2014, 11:31 AM 

So far, this unbelievable thread implies that the Holy Spirit OF God is an intimate part of God and can never exist as a separate entity while still belonging to God. That idea limits the use of the preposition "OF."

The preposition "OF"can be used to show ownership: the car OF the man; the book OF the student. Yet in both cases, although the car belongs to the man and the book belongs to the student, the car, man, book, and student are all completely independent, separate entities. They are not intimately fixed to or a part of each other.

The preposition "OF" can also be used to show that which is attached or fixed to something: the tail OF the dog; the lips OF the woman. There, the tail and lips are respectively attached to and are an intimate part of the dog and woman.

The preposition "OF" can also be used to describe: a box OF tissues; a plate OF spaghetti. The tissues are within the box and the spaghetti is on the plate, yet the box, tissues, spaghetti, and plate are still completely independent, separate entities.

Depending on one's perspective, "the Holy Spirit OF God" can imply ownership, attachment, AND description. Some people see the Holy Spirit as intimately attached to and belonging to God; hence, it cannot be a separate entity. Other people see the Holy Spirit as an entity that belongs to God but that, as a separate entity, obeys God and submits to His will.

Since the New Testament simply says "the Holy Spirit OF God," then our perspective of the Holy Spirit depends on our perspective of the preposition "OF." We may either see the Holy Spirit as intimately attached to God OR as an independent entity that still belongs to and submits to God. The New Testament DOES NOT tell us how to perceive the Holy Spirit; therefore, our perspective using "OF" is a matter of choice.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: It's All a Matter of Individual Perspective

January 3 2014, 5:22 PM 

We don't get a multiple choice in reading 101a.

Pneuma literally means WIND. If we say the wind OF Christ the definition can only means BREATH or FLATULENCE OF Christ.

In literate Greek or Hebrew 101a, wind was also used FIGURATIVELY of the BREATH. The word can never be the name of a human or divine person. God IS or consists only of WIND. However, in literate society, the word can mean the MIND of a person: that is because the MIND as "father" expresses its mental disposition by BREATHING. The Sword of The Spirit is the LIPS as "double-edged" swords. Sword is used because we CUT or manipulate things by speaking something.

The Word or LOGOS is the regulative principle. Therefore, God regulates or governs by SPEAKING: His MIND (father) breathes (spirit) and ARTICULATES His Word. This is the way God has revealed in language we can comprehend. Word or LOGOS is not something comprehended only as what we can hear: the WORD or LOGOS is how God as Wholly Spirit empowers energy to carry out His will: better leave that one to understand better by and by. If God creates and develops spiritual life by WORDS then we know that they contain power which the Ph.ds will never grasp as they tamper with it.

In 2 Corinthians 3 Paul

Says that the Holy Spirit
....Is to GOD
What our spirit (mind, heart)
....is to US,
For US (the Apostles) the Holy Breath of God is the MIND of Christ.


Jesus said that MY Words ARE Spirit and Life.

Life is recognized as having BREATH or spirit in it.

The Father is MIND (to we mortals)
The Spirit it BREATH
The Son is the WORD

The single word FIRE! can make a living person into a dead person. The word GUILTY! can put a free person into prison for life plus a hundred years. How silly to think that you MUST have a clergy person to explain what Jesus came to explain.

John 3:33 He that hath received his TESTIMONY hath set to his seal that God is true.

The SPIRIT gave the Prophets and Jesus the TESTIMONY as BREATH

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the TESTIMONY of Jesus IS the SPIRIT of prophecy.

John 6:63 It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I SPEAK unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are life.


Filled with the SPIRIT (Ephesians 5) is the same as Filled with the WORDS of Christ (Colossians 3) and the command is to SPEAK the Word to minister SPIRIT.

Jesus SPAKE or ARTICULATED what the MIND (father) BREATHED into Him. When God BREATHES into a person they SPEAK: they do not sing, clap and play instruments: that is the spiritus of Abaddon or Apollyon.

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent SPEAKETH the WORDS of God: for God giveth not the SPIRIT by measure [meter] unto him.

All of the first users of TRIAS defined the SINGULAR ALMIGHTY in the same way: so did the Campbells.

Father is MIND
Spirit is BREATH
Son is WORD. They go on to say that "the SON of God is the WORD of God" meaning that which the Almighty articulates through people. WE are the sons of God by FAITH: that means that when we live by that which is HEARD then we are Sons.

The Spirit OF God is the MIND of God or His "Mental disposition" expressed by BREATHING and ARTICULATING.

If you deny the ONE GOD (Theos)
and the One LORD (kurios) made so by God
Where God is CAPABLE of speaking to His LORD (Moses, Jesus etc).
John said that you are ANTI-Christ because you deny that God can enable People to speak for Him without needing another FAMILY MEMBER as a crutch for His disability!

The ONE MEDIATOR is the MAN Jesus Christ:


 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.242.238

Re: It's All a Matter of Individual Perspective

January 3 2014, 5:47 PM 

Remember, the preposition "OF" in "the Spirit OF God/Christ/the Lord" can be interpreted a number of different ways. The beautiful fact about that is that all those interpretations work well. It's still a matter of personal choice.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: It's All a Matter of Individual Perspective

January 3 2014, 6:26 PM 

In Romans 14 Paul said that WE don't get personal opinions and the expression of them if we be a Disciple (only) of Christ.

Neo-trinitarians say that the Holy Spirit person is ANOTHER intercessor-mediator.

Paul was inspired to say that:

1Timothy 2:5 For there is ONE GOD
and one mediator between God and men,
the MAN Christ Jesus;

Those who say that the Spirit OF God or Christ is a DIVINE mediator, that denies that the MAN Christ Jesus is the ONE Mediator.

That says that the Spirit OF Christ who informed Paul was a LIAR. That's why the command is to PREACH the Word (only) for Comfort and Doctrine. No one gets the right to speak lies: those who "speak on their own" says Jesus "are sons of the Devil."

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

If you believe and teach something that is not revealed.
Then you claim that your OPINION is equivalent to FAITH.
And FAITH comes only by hearing the WORD of God.
If it is NOT of FAITH it is SIN.

If you say that everyone can have their own opinion.
And Christ in Isaiah says there was NO MAN to speak for God. So God sent His ARM or RIGHT HAND.

Then you say that God who breathed into the Prophets was simply mistaken.

Once you start pumping nails into your spiritual coffin God sends strong delusions so that you cannot stop.

A Disciple of Christ does not WANT any preachable (for pay) personal opinions when we are Washed with water INTO the Word or into the school of Christ. A person with A holy spirit or A good conscience cannot grasp with hands that are supposed to be DEAD to self.

God does not PRAY for those OF the World and those not OF the World follow Jesus who spoke ONLY what He heard from the Father. Jesus said He did not have any personal opinions or words other than that which He heard from the Father.

Too bad, too sad!

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.242.238

Re: It's All a Matter of Individual Perspective

January 3 2014, 6:50 PM 

I must not be a neo-Trinitarian, for I do not think the Holy Spirit is "another mediator." Only Christ is our mediator. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit, whether a part of God or a separate entity. Both perceptions work well.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

"Whether a part of God or a separate entity"????

January 6 2014, 9:25 PM 

Both expressions:

(1) "the holy Spirit OF God" [Eph. 4:30] is "a part of God"
----------------- and ----------------------
(2) The "Holy Spirit" is "a separate entity"

... ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. Like it or not, Bill, you cannot have it BOTH WAYS. (The big nose of Durante is not detached from its owner and is NOT a separate entity or person apart from Durante.)

The "Holy Spirit" belonging to God is scriptural (Eph. 4:30).

The "Holy Spirit" as the man-designated THIRD PERSON is Trinitarian.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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