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Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 2 2014 at 4:45 AM
Donnie Cruz  (Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
from IP address 99.177.250.192

We've been discussing the significance of the preposition "OF" in what the Scripture teaches:

  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord (26 references in O.T.; Luke 4:18; Acts 5:9; 8:39; II Cor. 3:17,18)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF God (14 references in O.T.; 12 references in N.T.)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the living God (II Cor. 3:3)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Christ (Rom. 8:9; I Peter 1:11)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF His Son (Gal. 4:6)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the holy Spirit OF God (Eph. 4:30)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Father (Matt. 10:20)
  • ... and many other similar passages as the ones listed above.

Since there is only ONE Spirit (I Cor. 12:13; Eph. 2:18; Eph. 4:4), it would be erroneous for man to make God formulate or generate a separate BEING apart from "the spirit OF the Lord" that the passages present above. Man does this (generate a Spirit Being) to validate the Trinity Creed that espouses God No. 3 -- "the Holy Spirit."

OK, we are not discussing the troublesome preposition "OF" at this time -- it is being presented here only for your "recollection" as we are about to bring up another preposition that is also troublesome to many biblical scholars and Trinitarian followers.

And what is that other preposition? We're finding out now.

Scripture's message ("Mystery of His Will," November 29 2013, 4:06 PM) really caught my attention. It was published in the extensively-discussed, controversial thread, "Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth."

God has chosen in these last times to unveil the mystery (secret) of His Will (Ephesians 1:7-11). Part of that mystery was the plan for God's Word to descend to become human....

This mystery include the revelation of the existence of Christ identified with Jesus, the redemption through His blood, as the Suffering Savior ... God purposed this from the beginning, and in the New Covenant He has unveiled the Christ. Christ sums up all things in the heavens and things on the earth. These events were predestined according to His purpose, who works all things according the purpose of His Will (Word). ... The revelation of Christ was the unveiling to the temple, the understanding that God was in Christ.

It is clear from passages above and in John 1:1,14:

-- That the holy Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ is not another being.
-- That it was "the Word" in the beginning (v. 1) that was made flesh (v.14).
-- That it was "Jesus" in the beginning that became Jesus in v. 14 is fallacious.
-- That the Catholic Trinity's perceived Person No. 3 is not Scripture-based.

Another troubling preposition is "IN" (often substituted or replaced with the verb "IS").

Hopefully, Catholic Trinity followers do not make another mistake due to misuse of prepositions, e.g.:

-- Error: That God was pre-existing Jesus who became Jesus 2000 years ago.
-- Error: That the Word in the beginning was conclusively the pre-existing Jesus.
-- Error: That the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ is "another" Spirit.
-- Error: That there is a REAL "Holy Spirit" -- the Trinity's 3rd PERSON.
-- Error: That there is no distinction between: (1) origination and (2) destination ...
-- ... meaning that when A became (transformed, changed to) B, A was B all along.


And now ... Scripture's remark above: "The revelation of Christ ... the understanding that God was in Christ."

I'm presenting the following passages with the preposition "IN" used in expressions involving God and Christ:


  • Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying. (II Cor. 12:19)

  • And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. (Gal. 3:17)

  • For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (Gal. 3:26)

  • For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. (Phil. 3:3)

  • I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3:14)

  • In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. (I Thess. 5:18)

  • For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (I Thess. 4:14)

  • Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (I Cor.1:2)

  • But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: (I Cor. 1:30)

  • [14] Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. [17] For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. (II Cor. 2)

  • [17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. [19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. [20] Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. (II Cor. 5)


What does "God IN Christ" mean? Does "God IN Christ" mean the same as "Jesus Christ IS God"?

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.245.110

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 2 2014, 9:04 AM 

It appears that prepositions, especially "OF," really have you churning. I wonder how many preachers would devote a whole sermon's worth of time just to "OF" and how many congregants would stay awake during that time. Many congregants would probably end up thinking, "Say what? This guy has finally lost it!" happy.gif




============================

I changed my mind about ignoring or rejecting this post. What an antagonistic response as usual, Bill!!! This is not conducive to learning the Bible -- not at all.

From: "This guy [who] has finally lost it!"


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Jan 3, 2014 3:38 PM


 
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Bill
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74.179.242.238

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 3 2014, 4:56 PM 

Do you know of any preachers who would devote an entire sermon to discussing the preposition "OF"? I don't, and in all my years I've never heard any preacher deliver such a sermon. If a preacher did that, he'd be looking for a new job.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 3 2014, 5:41 PM 

What does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

Perhaps I should have said: "Prepositions ... that trouble biblical scholars, Trinitarians, and preachers who would rather look for a new job than seriously study prepositions that would debunk their man-made beliefs."



 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.242.238

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 3 2014, 6:19 PM 

Donnie, I'd say that you, too, have never heard any preacher deliver a sermon about the preposition "OF." If you had, you would have said so.

I mentioned sermons about "OF," because apparently liberal and conservative preachers alike don't consider that to be an important and useful topic. It's neither important nor useful, because discussing "OF" in religious circles is nitpicking to the nth degree. It's purely academic minutia.

You limit using "OF" to indicate possession only (which is your personal choice), when I've shown that, as far as the Holy Spirit is concerned, "OF" can be used and interpreted several different ways. Those different interpretations in no way reduce the importance of the Holy Spirit.

It doesn't matter the price of tea in China how we perceive the Holy Spirit: either as an intimate part of God or as a distinct, heavenly entity (or even a "person") that submits to the will of God. Whatever our perception, the Holy Spirit still functions according to God's plan.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 5 2014, 3:48 AM 

What does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

Bill, my intent in stating the common saying ABOVE was to stop this nonsensical assertion of yours (or anyone's) regarding this topic as being neither useful nor important to preachers. This site does not rely on what any preacher from whatever religious persuasion thinks or believes regarding this particular study.

Neither is this particular discussion dependent upon YOUR conclusion that the preposition "OF" used in many, many passages dealing with "the holy Spirit OF" the living God or the Lord Jesus Christ "can be used and interpreted several different ways [your words]." That "it does not matter what" rule concerning doctrine leaves YOU open to accepting ANY INTERPRETATION of any doctrinal matter, including many of the Roman Catholic Church's man-made dogmas.

Now, Bill, I do not intend to make and post any more comments about what preachers think; neither should you. Let's just get to the point. Please be prepared to present what you honestly believe the preposition "of" means in each of the expressions in the 70+ passages found in the entire Bible.

Please do not deviate from the specific topic. Your specific interpretation of the preposition "of" in the expression "the [holy] spirit OF ..." is very important in our STUDY concerning this particular Bible topic. Then, defend it with scriptural references. It will certainly be published.

 
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Bill
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74.179.13.221

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 4 2014, 6:36 PM 

If the preposition "OF" is all that important, if our eternal destiny depends on it, one would think that preachers would devote much sermon time to it and that Bible colleges would build courses around it. But that hasn't happened. As I said eariler, I've never heard anyone preach a sermon about "OF." Furthermore, when I was a student at David Lipscomb College, none of the many Bible courses I took ever devoted a moment to the preposition "OF," nor was it ever mentioned in the daily chapel services that I attended.

The only people troubled by the preposition "OF" are those who cannot accept the fact that "OF" can be interpreted several different ways, that there is no one-and-only interpretation in that regard.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 5 2014, 4:30 AM 

Bill, you're the only one mentioning: (a) "eternal destiny," or (b) what other "preachers" think, or (c) accepting whatever "can be interpreted several different ways." In addition [speaking of Lipscomb's (d) religion courses], there is a "Worship Leader" course that you might be MORE interested in taking.

Expressing those thoughts (above) does not make you a linguist nor impress serious students of the Bible.

As I've said, let us know: to which specific interpretation concerning the preposition "OF" in those passages do you actually adhere?

Bill, present to us specifically YOUR belief. For example, let us know if the use of the preposition "of" in the expression "the [holy] Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ" is more meaningful and relevant in:

(a) "the box OF candy"
-------- than in ------------
(b) "the mind OF Christ"

. . . your response will be published, and we will spend the time to review and discuss it. (Otherwise, please do not waste your time by repeating those irrelevant statements.)

 
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Bill
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74.179.15.218

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 5 2014, 12:53 PM 

I've noticed that whenever I mention consequences of beliefs and our eternal destiny, you [ . . . ]

[ . . . ]

[ . . . ]

[ . . . ]


You wanted to know my specific interpretation about "OF." OK, here it is. I believe that interpreting "OF" is a matter of choice; there are several ways to do it, as I've mentioned earlier. Specifically, I believe that the Holy Spirit is an independent, heavenly being who belongs to God and submits to God's will; thus, God's Holy Spirit, or the Holy Spirit OF God. It's the same wording as "the Son OF God," only the Holy Spirit is not begotten of God as Jesus is. Jesus, being a separate, heavenly being, belongs to God, just as the Holy Spirit, being a separate, heavenly being, belongs to God.

I have no problem with people who [ . . . ]


===========================

Bill, only the portion [about 25%] of your above post in response to my specific request is being published. Know that I have read and saved your post in its entirety for reference (since you spent quite a bit of time composing it).


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Jan 6, 2014 2:57 AM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 6 2014, 3:22 AM 

Bill,

Thanks for responding to my specific question earlier.

Please further clarify your position regarding "the Holy Spirit." I'll briefly explain below why I'm asking.

Here it is: I've learned from some of your previous posts that you believe there are two (2) spirits involved in dealing with the subject of "the Holy Spirit":

(1) One is "the holy Spirit OF God [/the Lord Jesus Christ/the Father]
----------------------- and -----------------------
(2) The other being the 3rd Person of "The Trinity" -- THE HOLY SPIRIT.


Is this still your position?

 
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Bill
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74.179.211.12

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 6 2014, 9:28 AM 

There is only one God, there is only one Christ, and there is only one Holy Spirit. The three exist separately yet are united as one ("I and my Father are one"--John 10:30 KJV). Just as God sent His Son Jesus into the world, so God sends His Holy Spirit into the world.

"Box OF candy"--this describes the box that contains candy. There is no possession or ownership. Box and candy exist as separate items. This is one way to use "OF."

"Holy Spirit OF God"--the Holy Spirit belongs to God, yet they also exist as separate beings. This is another way to use "OF."


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 6 2014, 12:07 PM 

I asked the question concerning the "box of candy" separately (see below) because I wanted that discussed separately. (Let's discuss that one later.)

For now I'd like to draw your attention back to the other question I posed: Do you still hold the position:

(1) That "the Spirit of God" [of the Father/of Christ] expressed in some 70+ passages in the Bible

------------- is different from ------------------

(2) That "the Holy Spirit" is the 3rd Person God as espoused in the Trinity Creed?

====================================



The specific question requires a "yes" or "no" answer, whether or not you'd like to qualify the yes/no answer. If I have misunderstood you all along, please let me know.

In regard to your first paragraph, that is simply a restatement of the Trinity Creed, and you actually meant (I think): "one Father, one Son, one Holy Spirit." I see a number of issues in your assertion in that paragraph:

  1. The Trinity's "Holy Spirit" as a "PERSON," the "3rd Person," is yet to be proven.
  2. The Bible tells me that Jesus Christ is the only "person" as God's Son.
  3. In John 10:30 (along with numerous passages), it's only about "I and my Father."
  4. In John 10:30, the Trinity's version of "the Holy Spirit" PERSON is missing.
  5. When did God send His Son Jesus into the world?
  6. When did/DOES[?] God send "His Holy Spirit into the world"?
  7. So, God sent two "beings" or "persons" into this world?
  8. As a PERSON or BEING, what is the name of the Trinity's "Holy Spirit"?
  9. Does "His Holy Spirit" imply "begotten" and, therefore, a separate "being"?
  10. Or, does "His Holy Spirit" imply "the Spirit" which is HOLY BELONGING TO GOD?


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 6 2014, 4:57 PM 

Spirit means BREATH: not candy.

The Breath OF Christ means that Christ CONTAINED the breath.

The box AND candy can be separated. If you take the candy OUT of the box it is no longer "a box OF CANDY."

If you take the BREATH out of CHRIST it is just a mixture of gases and it mixes and ceases to exist.

Spirit means MIND: if you take the MIND out of Christ then Christ is "out of His Mind." His mind no longer exists and does not float like a butterfly.

When God BREATHS the breath vibrates the eardrums of Jesus of Nazareth. The Breath then disperses into the four winds and has no personal existence.

[linked image]

So WE see that BREATH comes out of a MOUTH.

 
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Bill
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74.240.211.173

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 6 2014, 10:27 AM 

One other matter: I believe that the Holy Spirit is the third member of the Trinity but is not a physical "person." So that makes me a non-Catholic Trinitarian, to be distinguished from a Catholic Trinitarian, who believes that the Trinity is comprised of three separate (physical?) "persons."

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 6 2014, 12:31 PM 

The "Catholic Trinity" teaches that there are THREE separate PERSONS, and it should be apparent that only Jesus Christ is the "physical" person.

It appears that the expression "Catholic Trinity" is troubling you.

What you believe is already known, Bill, that "the Holy Spirit is the third member of the [Catholic] Trinity" and is not a "physical" person -- that is OBVIOUS. Along with that, without your denial, you also agree with the Catholic Trinity's designation or numbering system:

(1) the Father is the FIRST PERSON;
(2) the Son is the SECOND PERSON; and
(3) "the Holy Spirit" is the THIRD PERSON.

How did the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Council(s) come up with that numbering system? I wonder why the Protestant propagators have not bothered to question the Creed and its ranking system among the-three-Gods-in-one!!!



 
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Bill
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74.240.211.247

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 6 2014, 1:21 PM 

Jesus is no longer a physical person, even though the Catholics perceive Him to be a physical "person" as part of their Catholic Trinity concept. Jesus is now back with God in heaven as one member of the biblical three-part grouping, AKA Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19). No member of this biblical grouping is presently a physical "person."

We should make two distinctions regarding concepts about the Trinity:

(1) Catholic Trinity--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate, physical "persons."

(2) Non-Catholic Trinity--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate, heavenly beings who are NOT physical "persons."

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 6 2014, 1:42 PM 

You are trying too hard to disassociate yourself from other Catholic Trinity followers. The Catholic Trinity says: "THREE PERSONS" ... period!!! (But you're allowed to do your own three-person [physical or not] dissection of the Catholic Trinity. See if they agree with you.)

Bill's and the Catholic Trinity's "three-part grouping" system!!! The list in Matt. 28:19 does not prove that both Jesus Christ and the Trinity's "Holy Spirit" were sent by the Father to become PERSONS.

 
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Bill
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74.179.15.166

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 6 2014, 2:30 PM 

It matters not to me if the Catholics agree with my concept of the "Trinity" or not. They have their version of the Trinity; I have mine.


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 6 2014, 3:37 PM 

You may refer to YOUR concept of the Trinity differently, but the reality is that "your" concept is NO DIFFERENT -- THREE PERSONS (#1, #2, #3) IN ONE GOD -- and that's your belief also.

It is "Catholic" because of its pagan origin, approved and authorized by "the bishops" of the eventual Roman Catholic Church and the Roman Emperor. (Don't be alarmed that I held that same view for a long, long time until I thoroughly searched and independently studied the Scripture and found no such creed in the Bible.)

trinity.jpg or 19.jpg

The image may be defective in that Person No. 3 of the Trinity is not represented by a PERSON'S image.



 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

January 6 2014, 12:26 PM 

Pneuma and Ruwah mean WIND or BREATH. God is bright enough that HE could have said "the Spirit AND Christ." Apparently even His helper, a spirit PEOPLE wasn't smart enough to use the AND word.

If we say that Billy Bob in the pew behind us has the Breath of stale cigarets. We really means that both Billy Bob and a people named "BREATH" are behind us.

NOW, I get it.

"I hear you breathing IN the telephone." No, silly, it is not ME breathing into the telephone but my side-kick BREATH.

So, I retract my "antichrist" charge and appeal to the Davidsanity plea: He thought that if he praised God with HALAL or made himself look vile and insane he was safe because God doesn't punish the mad. When he tried it on a philistine door, the king said 'we have enough MAD MEN already.'


 
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