Place your banner ad here.          See all banner ads

|| || About || Links Library || Help Warn Others ||
|| Madison Church of Christ || Richland Hills Church of Christ || Hillcrest Church of Christ || More Churches || Sunday School in Exile ||

Where is my NewThisWeek Email subscription?Click Here

Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Herald of Truth and Amazing Grace

March 7 2014, 3:13 AM 

Tom, thanks for the info from a FAQ section. Being "pro-Baptist" in certain respects is perhaps the more appropriate identity. It's quite revealing when we Google-search: "Pastor Lucado ... Pastor Max Lucado ... [etc.]."

There's a thread that I initiated sometime ago:

Max Lucado -- "stepping aside as senior minister" (Houston Chronicle)

 Respond to this message   
Tom Brite
(no login)

Re: Herald of Truth and Amazing Grace

March 7 2014, 10:30 AM 

Ken, I think that is a fair assessment. Max tends to fall somewhere between the traditional Church of Christ view and the traditional Baptist view on baptism. I have talked to him about the topic and that is the best way I can explain it. Donnie, I think that you have to remember that journalists do not have the subject of an article proofread the article. In today's world, the vast majority of journalists see nothing wrong in referring to a preacher as "pastor." It is a normal and accepted practice. Just because a journalist uses that term does mean that the use is condoned by the subject of the article. I have seen Church of Christ preachers referred to many times as "pastor."

 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Herald of Truth and Amazing Grace

March 9 2014, 9:41 PM 


I completely understand how the Christian world and the media portray the resident preacher or leader as "the pastor" of his/her congregation/parish.

The journalist is not likely to understand if corrected right at that moment.

When in a public meeting or conference it is announced: "The Reverend Max Lucado will lead our opening prayer" ... an immediate response of, "Let me state at the outset that I [Lucado] am not 'the Reverend' or 'the pastor of my church' ... and now let's pray ..." would be a distraction or inappropriate to mention.

However, "the pastor" (if he believes that he is not) should make his honest convictions known to the public in some form.

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

"By What Title?"

March 7 2014, 10:32 AM 

It would be helpful to have the FAQ's with all the context, but probably that is lost.

The whole topic of "title" begs discussion of many Biblical topics, such as "the pastor" versus "pastor."

But there's also need to consider "if any man would be master let him be the servant." "You are a royal priesthood, a holy nation, and people of God's own possession." "Call no man father. . . " Elders are not to "lord it over the flock."

The confusion of "title" with "role", "function", "duty", "work", and "oversight."

The man David Lipscomb and his generation were very nervous about the use of titles, since to assume an "office" or "title" seemed to confer authority over the Word of God, and established a religious hierarchy.

When the question popped up "by what title do I address Max", it would have been a good time to bring these topics to discussion. Of course, there are many today who like these titles, hierarchy, and deference, and so we avoid the discussion.

I think if a church issue goes to civil court, with the behavior and mind-set of current COC members, the judges will default authority to the elders.

What rights do the "royal priesthood" have? That is the church membership?

An Assembly of God in Indianapolis found out that there was a small clique that had fired preachers sequentially, and when this was discovered, the church "fired" the clique, and brought the "pastors" back to apologize to them and right the situation.

 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: "By What Title?"

March 7 2014, 12:20 PM 

I think I remember reading David Lipscomb saying that "a man has no more authority after he is appointed than he had before he was appointed."

Lenski reads Paul's instruction to Titus and I believe that is what the text says to "point out men who are already laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching."

Rubel Shelly defined the shift when he says that the elders are leaders but the "minister" is best qualified by training and charisma to be THE leader. He may have begun the mantra which caught on that the elders are just the shepherd of the senior minister. In other words, the elders are now board of directors as in some denominations.

My old church in Murfreesboro, tn is a good example of a preacher who cannot speak the truth and substitutes his "sermons" for the commanded Word. The defacto pastor begins to heap on a host of paid STAFF or ministers and demotes the decons to menial servants or gets rid of them completely (Rick Atchley for instance). The STAFF defined in all pagan religions as PARASITES take care of social gospel ministries and gain the power and spend the money.

The pattern defined by Rick Atchley originally was in the form of a pyramid or Tower of Babylon. Because the songs and sermons are devoid of the command to speak the text and the Lord's Supper becomes Holy Communion celebration with humming, singing or strumming as backup music; and because there is no command or example of "passing the plate" for parasites, they have zero DNA which defines the ekklesia, synagogue or Church as A School of the Word (only) where the Lord's Supper reminds everyone that Jesus Died and we have nothing to offer except our minds receptive to the Word.

So we have institutional churches and non-institutional institutional churches and most of them cannot define the ekklesia or synagogue and therefore cannot define "worship."

So! Shall He find faith when He returns? The rhetorical question is answered, "NO, almost none." That's the pattern where Jesus doesn't pray for those OF THE WORLD and speaks only to those not OF the World.

We should never be surprised or disturbed when the "numbers" begin to show up as empty pews.

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

"Pastor" Lucado

March 8 2014, 1:34 AM 

I have heard Max on live TV, after being introduced as "America's pastor", say in the discussion "well, I am a pastor." I have heard him introduced as America's pastor a few times, and I have not heard him ever say anything to the contrary afterwards. I got the impression that he expected that introduction.

 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: "Pastor" Lucado

March 8 2014, 3:09 PM 

Yes, I have heard Max called the nation's pastor and called upon to minister and pray. We remember another person who accepted such honor and was consumed with maggots. Josephus also defines Judas Sicarri or the assassin.

Jesus is the only Chief Shepherd: a shepherd FEEDS HIS SHEEP. The commanded food is the "prophets and apostles." The elders are commanded to EJECT the cunning craftsmen or sophists meaning rhetoricians (self-speakers are sons of the Devil says Jesus), singers and instrument players. The reason we have stated is that all THREE of these are called hypocrites (Jesus quoting Ezekiel 33) and Sorcerers (quoting Jesus in Revelation 18). Paul says that their assignment is to LIE IN WAIT TO DECEIVE. They are ALL angels of light or they would never be placed in the majority of pulpits.

Max FEEDS lots of people and is the foundation for Rick Atchley etal all of whom lie TO God and ABOUT God. They even use as PATTERN God's abandoning people to paganism. Why do they do that? They know that after a decade or two of lying (blaspheming) the lambs have been made dumb before the slaughter.

Proverbs 28:6 Better is the poor that walketh in his uprightness,
.....than he that is perverse in his ways, though he be rich.

If there is any truth in the Scriptures used by the "progressives" but denounced in their teaching, then it is a provable fact that Max is "perverse" in all of his teachings claiming to speak for Christ. Max continues to pour out worldly wisdom which he knows is treated as truth by the weak. He holds "concerts" and accepts praise. Jesus said that those who followed him and spoke the WORD as God gave it to him.

The national press knows him as the National Pastor meaning Vicar. Why do they know that? Because Max has promoted himself. If you claim visions and offer people SALVATION by ignoring Jesus Christ then the WORLD (Aliens according to Job) will love to have it so. Many (most) are called (invited) but few (almost none) are chosen to be the ELECT by being added to the Church by Christ ONLY AFTER obedience in baptism

Proverbs 28:20 A faithful man shall abound with blessings:
.....but he that maketh haste to be rich shall not be innocent.

fidelis , e, adj. 1. fides, I. that may be trusted or relied upon, trusty, faithful, sincere, true

A PISTIS or FIDES by definition COMPLIES and is baptized. A person who is APISTOS and does not comply is called a traitor being OF the World.
Max tells Christ in prophecy and Jesus in a conditional command a liar. There is no easy way to say that.

MAKING HASTE is defined as working really hard at WRITING songs and sermons which is an OPOS and therefore legalism. Tom can tell us about the Rock beat.

festino , festivum festinant diem, hasten to celebrate, Opus , 1. Work, art, workmanship
4. Of literary labor: (Graeci) opus quaerun
C. In gen., a deed, action, performance, business:
turb?dus , a, um, adj. turba, I.full of confusion or disorder, wild, confused, disordered (class.; cf.: agitatus, tumultuosus).

Jesus said DON'T GO THERE: the kingdom of God is within you and does not come with observation which means religious operations or festivals or celebrations. A faithful Christian who writes a book will be lucky and happy if he does not spend too much of his own money.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: [prophets]
.....if they speak not according to this word, is because there is no light in them.

The command is to BUILD a Church or educate a church on the Prophets and Apostles. The Law to regulate Civil life did not change the Spiritual life in the Church in the wilderness or synagogue. The command was to PREACH the Word by READING the Word for Comfort and Doctrine.

There was no act or Rhetoric, Singing or playing instruments under the Law of Moses. Therefore, those who try to impose it are said to HAVE NO LIGHT IN THEM.

 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: "By What Title?"

March 9 2014, 9:21 PM 


Yes, a discussion between "the pastor" and "pastor" is only one of many biblical topics regarding this title or office.

In the denominational community, "Pastor Rick Warren" would be the leader or minister of the Saddleback Community Church in CA, and he is "the pastor" of that church.

In a church of Christ congregation, since the Bible uses "elder" or "pastor" or "overseer" or "bishop" or "presbyter" or "shepherd" interchangeably in reference to the office, we may address each one equally in that manner. The resident evangelist may also be addressed as such if he happens to be [is] one of the elders or pastors, etc.; the minister is "a pastor" in that sense, but he is not the only "pastor."

 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Understanding Change Agents (by John Waddey)

March 9 2014, 12:33 AM 


Thank you so much for providing info regarding Lynn Anderson. I got the same impression as you did -- you explained it very, very well; I could not have done any better. [I asked for you input because I wasn't sure that I fully understood the message he was trying to deliver. Was it my hearing or was it his voice?]

Thank you also for dealing with this subject: "Change in Leadership." We may need to discuss this in more detail when time allows. As you may be aware [we may review the events surrounding the upheaval] that the "first" of the two was mainly responsible for the "progressive" move to transform/restructure Madison.

I have a question for you: What do you think of the "relationship" between Jason Shepherd, the young minister, and Chris Lindsey, the young "worship leader," and his supporting cast [the quartet performing on stage] and the rest of his Praise Team in the front rows? Because I'm not always present, I'm just wondering about how you would rate their behavior in the "worship" assembly. [I have yet to witness one speaking to (or "complimenting") the other -- "as the manner of some is."] happy.gif

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

Relationship Between Jason & Chris

March 11 2014, 9:48 PM 

We get along great! Worship is not the place or time for self promoting!

 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Relationship Between Jason & Chris

March 13 2014, 2:26 AM 

To ??: I concur that worship "is not ..."; so, what "is" worship? Welcome!!!

To Jason of "WE": Do you prefer to teach lessons from the Rick Warren culture-driven manual or from the Restoration heritage and its stand for New Testament principles? Welcome!!!

To Chris of "WE": You have a very special, natural musical talent. [No, I wouldn't call it a "spiritual gift." Sorry.] There's much to say about "musical worship"; let's save it for later. How much attention does God REALLY give to your QUARTET [2 men and 2 WOMEN] performing on stage? Welcome, Chris!!!

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

Reinforcement Praise

March 13 2014, 7:46 PM 

Normally when two employees praise one another that implies both are equal and will profit from mutual support. When only one praises the other the one is normally an inferior. Complete silence could imply insecurity.

 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

The Games That People [Change Agents] Play

March 9 2014, 8:55 PM 

The Games That People Play

by John Waddey

In 1968, Joe South wrote and published the song, "The Games People Play." It was a commentary on the hypocrisy of many in modern society. Being a student and observer of the change movement that is currently troubling the Church of Christ, I have discovered the following games to be common among the leaders of that movement.

Let's Pretend: When a change agent first appears in a congregation of conservative Christians, he will pretend to be one with them. They who are quite happy to worship and serve God as they have long done will thus accept him in their midst, perhaps as their minister, or as a teacher, a deacon, or even an elder. Only after he is firmly established and secure in his position will he reveal his real faith and intention to implement innovative changes to their faith and worship.

A change agent can mingle with conservative preachers and elders at meetings and forums and never let his true faith and convictions be known. He will use all the right words to leave the impression that he is one with them. Even if he is asked to speak, the average preacher or elder might not detect that the man really pities or even despises their conservative views. Only when the winds are favorable will he reveal his true nature.

When interviewing for a position with a congregation, a shrewd change agent can answer all the questions that a concerned eldership might ask, leaving the impression that he is as conservative and loyal to Christ and his Word as they. A few months later, they discover that he has quietly recruited enough of their members to begin pushing for unscriptural changes.

When asked about his views on instrumental music in worship he might respond, "I love our a cappella congregation singing." Or, "We have a wonderful tradition of singing that I fully support." Or, "I believe it's wrong to divide the church over instrumental music." But he did not answer the actual question about using instruments in worship. To him, if they can be introduced without causing a division, he would not object; in fact, he would likely promote the idea.

The same tactic is sometimes used when answering questions about baptism's role in salvation. The change agent might say, "I believe in baptism." But he does not believe that, without it, a believing penitent would be lost. He really believes the sinner is saved by grace through faith and is then baptized to declare his salvation. When asked about the nature of the church, he will declare that he believes in the one church of the Bible, etc. But he really means one mystical, universal church which includes the many denominational churches. He thinks the Church of Christ is only one of those denominations.

In the world of politics, this slippery manipulation of words is described as "spinning" the facts or truth. In scriptural terms, it is the black art of deception, calling evil good and good evil (Is. 5:20).

A second game, closely akin to Pretend, is Catch Me If You Can. In this, the change agent dodges and deflects questions and pretends to be wounded that anyone would doubt his loyalty to the Lord and his church. He operates on the basis that "you can fool most of the people most of the time." All the while he is working to convert members to his errant views, he pretends not to understand why you would doubt his intentions. He is hurt that you question his soundness. Yet he continues to attend all the gatherings of change agents. He reads their books and papers. He shuns those of conservative brethren. He is invited to speak for liberal churches, and they love his message. He leaves the impression that he is on their team. But when the news gets home to his congregation, he dances and dodges, hoping to hold on to his job until he can capture the congregation or, failing that, find a church that does share his views. Only when he is cornered and caught will he finally admit what had long been suspected.

Given the effectiveness of these false teachers, Paul's warning is most timely. "Let no man beguile thee." (II Thess. 2:3).

 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: The Games That People [Change Agents] Play

March 9 2014, 11:25 PM 

You fool most elders most of the time and that is good enough until it is not good enough.

Both of Waddey's post are connected.
In Isaiah 5 the Spirit of Christ explained why the Civil-Military-Clergy complex (preachers-elders) had starved the people for lack of the Word.

If you are a sermon merchant as opposed to a Disciple of Christ in the prophets and apostles you will just quote enough to GIT UP your sermon and then spin a vortex out of your own head. However, a disciple will ask about the meaning of words as used in the texts at the time. Not only the terms but the explicit definition of what the leaders did in all of the false worship.

When you do so, as we have noted about Ephesians 4, IF you have APT elders they will silence the hypocritic actors SO THAT you can read the Word, you will notice that Paul defines the same MARKS of those who deliberately LIE IN WAIT TO DECEIVE: rhetoricians, singers, instrument players.

They are identified and we might try to understand how to identify the enemy:

1Samuel 25:22 So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
1Samuel 25:34 For in very deed, as the LORD God of Israel liveth, which hath kept me back from hurting thee, except thou hadst hasted and come to meet me, surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
1Kings 14:10 Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.
1Kings 16:11 And it came to pass, when he began to reign, as soon as he sat on his throne, that he slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not one that pisseth against a wall, neither of his kinsfolks, nor of his friends.
1Kings 21:21 Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel,
2Kings 9:8 For the whole house of Ahab shall perish: and I will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel:

 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: The Games That People [Change Agents] Play

March 10 2014, 1:16 PM 

People are squemish: Aristophanes is the only ancient writer who speaks without a forked tongue. If a false teacher lies about God and to God because as "Rhetorician, Singer or instrument player beyond the sacred pages" LIES IN WAIT TO DECEIVE [Ephesians 4] what shall we say of elders who are NOT APT enough to know that a Christ or Spirit APTED elder is commanded to REMOVE THEM? What shall we say of such elders who AFFIRM the cunning craftsmen or Sophists meaning self-preachers, clergy singers and instrument players? If they REFUSE to follow the PROOF of an APT elder is it not the case that THEY LIE IN WAIT TO DECEIVE YOU? Didn't Paul warn that people who infiltrate the elder's role with "command authority" WILL let the Wolves in to devour [double entendre] the sheep? If they sheep cannot be devoured or deceived why would Christ the Spirit Master Teacher warn you?

God seems to have no mercy for those who hang around to be deceived: they are OF the World or "aliens" according to Proverbs. When I listen to or read sermons of the END-TIME WOLVES I see them like those who "pisseth against the wall" and get applauded for it.

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers:
but the sheep did not hear them.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Mark Twain noted the the blind who follow the blind receive no mercy according to the Law given to govern musical idolaters of the Egyptian Etal., trinity.:

"A person could piss against a tree, he could piss on his mother, he could piss on his own breeches, and get off, but he must not piss against the wall that would be going quite too far. The origin of the divine prejudice against this humble crime is not stated; but we know that the prejudice was very strong so strong that nothing but a wholesale massacre of the people inhabiting the region where the wall was defiled could satisfy the Deity.

Take the case of Jeroboam. I will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall. It was done. And not only was the man that did it cut off, but everybody else.

The same with the house of Baasha: everybody was exterminated, kinsfolks, friends, and all, leaving not one that pisseth against a wall.

In the case of Jeroboam you have a striking instance of the Deitys custom of not limiting his punishments to the guilty; the innocent are included. Even the remnant of that unhappy house was removed, even as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone. That includes the women, the young maids, and the little girls. All innocent, for they couldnt piss against a wall. Nobody of that sex can. None but members of the other sex can achieve that feat.

(Mark Twain - Letters From The Earth 1909)"

Of course, Mark Twain didn't know the story line other than what he heard in pulpits. James says to them that a person who shows partiality brings down the whole law upon his/her/its head. Elevating clergy as "Rhetoricians, singers, instrument players, actors" is guilty of the whole law. Jesus said that God HIDES from them so that as one pisseth against the walls, the WHOLE assembly is made blind and deaf and will fall into the ditch (pit, hell)

This is FACT as written by the SCRIBES of the unlawful monarchy. If people use the Civil-Military-Clergy complex Christ called Robbers and Parasites, do they not take the "innocent" with the guilty? Or not?

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

Re: Understanding Change Agents (by John Waddey)

March 13 2014, 6:00 PM 

I think John Waddey was correct on some issues. Take the link below.


 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Understanding Change Agents (by John Waddey)

March 14 2014, 3:51 AM 


As frequently mentioned in the Scripture, the Spirit OF the Father (Matt. 10:20) or the Spirit OF Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19; Romans 8:9) is A.K.A. "the Holy Spirit."

Brother John quoted Romans 8:9 -- "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit OF God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit OF Christ, he is none of his."

Of change agents, he said, "the real enemy, the army of change, is marching through our midst taking individuals, churches, schools...."

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

Re: Understanding Change Agents (by John Waddey)

March 14 2014, 7:27 AM 

Donnie Cruz,

John Waddey said, "It is sad to see brethren using their time, their shot and powder to shoot at fellow Christians with whom they
disagree on the method of the Holy Spirits activity on behalf of Christians. While they make war on good
conservative men, the real enemy, the army of change, is marching through our midst taking individuals,
churches, schools almost with any significant opposition. The army that should be opposing them is too busy
trying to destroy their own men who don't yield to their pronouncements."

John Waddey also believed that the Holy Spirit was a divine person. John Waddey said, "The Holy Spirit is a divine person, a member of the holy godhead. It is erroneous to think of him as merely a power, influence or feeling. Masculine pronouns are applied to the Spirit (John 14:26). Attributes of personhood are given him. He speaks (Revelation 2:29); he leads (Romans 8:14); he forbids (Acts 16:6). The Holy Spirit plays a vital role in our salvation. We are baptized into the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19). He is the seal of our salvation and the "earnest of our inheritance" (Ephesians 1:13-14).

Donnie, perhaps, you need to be more tolerant with fellow Christians on how they perceive the Holy Spirit. Change your priorities, after all, the change agents are running amuck.

 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Understanding Change Agents (by John Waddey)

March 14 2014, 10:27 PM 


You said earlier, "I think John Waddey was correct on some issues." I say, I agree with John Waddey on many, many issues -- that's much more than you agree with him.

I can say the same thing about Wayne Jackson.

They're both conservative and closer to the truth than any of the progressive, Community Church-leaning change agents operating in the brotherhood of the churches of Christ. That's why I post many of their articles and quote from their writings.

Having said that, I'm not going to pretend that I do not disagree with portions of their beliefs concerning the Holy Spirit. It is common knowledge that there are many teachers and preachers in the church who have that same perception as what they've learned from the commonly-held teachings regarding the Trinity since the Nicene-Constantinopolitan decree in the 4th century.

It would be interesting to discuss the Trinity or the Holy Spirit with men like them in a friendly manner. Unlike certain posters among us, those men, in my opinion, would be very willing to discuss details and specifics including the grammatical structure and definitions of words contained in the expression: "the holy Spirit OF God." When specific answers are given to specific questions, controversial biblical topics can be discussed intelligently. It's when one refuses to answer with specificity that a discussion dies.

I think I am very tolerant with fellow Christians when discussing controversial doctrinal issues. They're messages are being published, aren't they? When messages are no longer of discussion value, there's no choice but to opt not to publish them.

I'm publishing your post conerning the Trinity, although unrelated to the topic of this thread, only because you're "in your good behavior" happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif

The only point I'm going to make here regarding the Holy Spirit is where I've already quoted the ignored passages [I've already mentioned them, in case you missed that part of my response]:

a) "The Spirit OF the Father" is a.k.a. "the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 10:20).

b) "The Spirit OF Jesus Christ" is a.k.a. "the Holy Spirit" (Phil. 1:19; Romans 8:9).

c) The expression "the holy Spirit OF God" (Eph. 4:30)

d) Those few of numerous passages clearly indicate God's holy Spirit is not a separate "PERSON" from either (1) God the Father or (2) God's Son -- the Lord Jesus Christ.

e) A Bible student who pays attention to details should be able to clearly analyze those references and safely conclude that our God's "holy Spirit" is not a separate being.

There's Bill Crump's post below yours waiting for publication. But I'm saving it and giving Bill a chance and time to transfer his post to one of the Trinity or Holy Spirit threads already in existence.


Correction from: "They're messages are being published, aren't they?"

That should've been "Their messages are being published, aren't they?"

Where's Dr. Crump when we need him to correct a mistake ... or ask him to explain to us the grammatical structure of the expression: "the holy Spirit OF God"?

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Mar 14, 2014 11:06 PM

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

Change Agents

March 14 2014, 11:26 PM 

Sarge seems to show that one man's change agents are another's faithful conservative.

Show me where the Holy Spirit was the image by which Adam was modelled.. Or show where the H.S. took on the form of a man. See Genesis 1:26 and the passage where Christ humbled Himself and took on the form of a man.

Are the Jews mistaken when they refer to God as One? Deuteronomy 6:4-5.

 Respond to this message   
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!

...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

Click Here......The Book is Available Now FREE

Place your banner ad here.           See all banner ads ...About ...Links Library ...Sunday School in Exile ...Help Warn Others

FastCounter by bCentral

CM Visit Counter as of 6/25/2015

Site Visits Since 6/30/2015
page counter