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Bill
(no login)
74.179.211.189

Re: Change Agents

March 14 2014, 11:57 PM 

Scripture, was Jesus mistaken when He referred to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Matt. 28:19?

The Jews referred to God as one, meaning one God. Now we also have one Son (Jesus) and one Holy Spirit.

 
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Scripture
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23.117.130.209

Prayer

March 15 2014, 10:17 AM 

Show where the Holy Spirit was addressed in prayer.

 
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Bill
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74.179.209.241

Re: Prayer

March 15 2014, 12:45 PM 

Show where the New Testament promises damnation if we look upon the Holy Spirit as a separate, divine being.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Prayer

March 15 2014, 2:31 PM 

That's the typical Bill: EVASIVE.

We address God the Father (John 6:7; Eph. 6:23; Phil. 2:11; etc.) when we pray, as Jesus Christ himself ensampled in Matt. 6:9 -- "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name...."

NOT [address] the holy Spirit OF the Father.

... and we pray in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The question was simple; the answer is simple. There was no reason for you to deviate whatsoever.

 
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Scripture
(no login)
23.117.130.209

FSHS

March 15 2014, 10:38 AM 

Bill

Jesus was misunderstood, not mistaken.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.209.241

Re: FSHS

March 15 2014, 12:54 PM 

I didn't ask if Jesus was "misunderstood" when He mentioned Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Matt. 28:19. I asked if Jesus was MISTAKEN in that regard. Since it is obvious that Jesus was NOT mistaken, then we must take Him at His word, that mentioning THREE beings--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--is most significant. Jesus could have said for us to be baptized in the name of the Lord God only, but He DID NOT. Jesus felt it important enough to mention two other beings--the Son and the Holy Spirit--in addition to the Father.

 
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Scripture
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68.52.121.122

Favorite verses

March 15 2014, 2:44 PM 

Bill likes Matthew 28:19 better than Acts 2:38

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.13.71

Some Verses Are More Explanatory Than Others

March 15 2014, 3:33 PM 

Of the many baptisms (including my own) that I have witnessed in churches of Christ, the baptismal candidates were always baptized in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--the full complement of three. Acts 2:38 mentions only Jesus to represent the whole.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Baptism "in the name of..."

March 15 2014, 8:05 PM 

Bill STILL likes Matthew 28:19 better than Acts 2:38 and OTHER Bible verses.

And then states that: "some verses are more explanatory than others."

Since Bill needs MORE "explanatory" verses besides [and including] Acts 2:38 and since he underestimates the power "in Jesus' name," here they are:

  • Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

  • (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) [Acts 8:16]

  • And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. (Acts 10:48)

  • When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19:5)

 
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Bill
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74.179.210.33

Re: Baptism "in the name of..."

March 15 2014, 8:56 PM 

Again, "the Lord Jesus" is representative of the WHOLE complement of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, just as Jesus said in Matt. 28:19. However, I have NEVER heard anyone in traditional church of Christ congregations baptized only "in the name of the Lord Jesus" while ditching Father and Holy Spirit. Perhaps newer and more "progressive" congregations are "streamlining" baptisms by eliminating "...in the name of the Father and the Holy Spirit" and focusing only on "the name of the Lord Jesus." But I think it best to follow the example that Jesus Himself gave in Matt. 28:19 by baptizing in the name of the three--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 
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Scripture
(no login)
23.117.130.209

Baptism in name of

March 15 2014, 10:40 PM 

I know only one person who was reimmersed from father son holy spirit baptism to Jesus baptism. He thought he would be lost otherwise. Our discussion is more about the nature of the HS.

 
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Anonymous
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Baptism &quot;in the name of...&quot;

March 15 2014, 10:56 PM 

Bill,

Being baptized "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" being highlighted for your benefit -- did that blind you? happy.gif

Those are passages found in your New Testament!!!

----- No, they do not eliminate God the Father.

----- No, they do not eliminate God the Father's holy Spirit.

----- No, they are not about a "progressive" or "traditional" procedure.

----- No, they do not make "in the name of F.S.HS" wrong.

----- No, [while these 4 passages relate to baptism], there are numerous verses in the N.T. that reference "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ"; take time to search the Bible for "in the name of" -- you will see; there are some 25 references to the name of the Lord Jesus.

----- No, there's no reason for anyone [you or me] to question that Jesus is replete with power, even [in] his "name."

Read the preceding verse (Matt. 28:18) -- "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." From Whom or by Whom? From/By God, His Father.

When Jesus issued the command in Matt. 28:19 to go, teach, baptize and teach some more, He was the physical Comforter during his lifetime with the disciples. The resurrected Christ is now "the Comforter, the Spirit of truth" (cf. John 14-17).

It was necessary to mention "the holy Spirit" [of the to-be-resurrected Christ] in Matt. 28:19. Those who were baptized to be added to the church [cf. the baptisms in Acts 2ff] were baptized "in the name of the Lord Jesus." Why not? By that time [after His resurrection], He was already the "another (different -- the spiritual) Comforter, the Spirit of truth.

Bill, I sense desperation on your part to justify your perception that God's holy Spirit is a separate PERSON or BEING.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.243.234

Re: Baptism in name of

March 16 2014, 12:09 AM 

It's interesting, incredible, and yet sad that someone would actually be rebaptized from FSHS baptism (as commanded by Jesus Himself) to Jesus-only baptism for "fear" of being lost. Sounds like that person decided that because the number of Jesus-only-baptism passages exceeded the number of FSHS-baptism passages, he felt that Jesus was somehow "wrong" or "missed the mark" and opted for rebaptism. Such nitpicking. With that kind of mindset, it's a wonder the person didn't decide that because the number of passages about faith exceeded the number of passages about baptism, then baptism wasn't necessary at all for salvation.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Baptism in name of

March 16 2014, 1:07 AM 

That's only one instance of rebaptism, and Bill ends up with wordy assumptions.

You missed Scripture's point completely: "Our discussion is more about the nature of the HS."

No one should underestimate the power "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ."

The pre-resurrection baptism "in the name of the FSHS" (Matt. 28:19) and the post-resurrection, church-age baptism "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" really make no difference.

There's only one and the same name.

The difference is something you've created yourself in that you're busy looking for "the Holy Spirit" as a PERSON or BEING in all of the passages referenced. You will find what you perceive of "the Holy Spirit" of God or Christ as a PERSON or BEING: NOT in Matt. 28:19, NOT in the Acts passages, and NOT in the rest of the Bible.


 
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Sarge
(no login)
108.230.197.238

Re: Baptism "in the name of..."

March 16 2014, 12:38 PM 

A. Campbell clearly understood the words of Jesus.

*******************

Into these relations to the Father, to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit we are immersed; for the Lord commanded the believers to be immersed into the name of the Holy Spirit as well as into the name of the Father and the Son. To be immersed into the name of the Holy Spirit, prepares for the enjoyment of this communion; as being immersed into the Father, introduces into the enjoyment of the love of God; and as immersion into the name of Jesus Christ, introduces us into the favor of the Lord Jesus. This love, grace, and communion are the superlative glory of the Christian institution. They are equally apprehensible, though in their nature and modes of development incomprehensible. It is the duty, honor, and privilege of Christians to enjoy all that into which they are immersed. There is as much wisdom or folly in disparaging the communion of the Holy Spirit, as in undervaluing the love of God or the favor of Jesus Christ.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Baptism "in the name of..."

March 16 2014, 9:45 PM 

I have seen this quote before. (We need to provide here identification of its source as a link or as a book/publication reference.)

I'm in agreement with A. Campbell. When we study this narrative carefully, we do not see any declaration or assumption of "persons" in the Godhead. We do not see an endorsement of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Trinity Creed of the 4th century.

Christians ought to recognize that in Christian living God's holy Spirit communes, not with the flesh, but with the Christian's spirit (which may not be so holy -- when compared to God's Spirit).

In other words, God's spirit is holy, thus, the expression in Ephesians 4:30 -- "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God...."

Does that make God's [HIS] holy Spirit a separate Divine Being from God? I think not.

Not any more [or less] than making a Christian's spirit a separate person or being from man.

Matt. 28:19 is a great commandment to go, teach, baptize, and teach some more.

A list of entities in that passage does not prove that the 3 are all "person" entities.

Our communion with God's holy Spirit is no indication of a separate/another Divine Being.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Baptism in name of

March 16 2014, 10:18 PM 

Further discussion of this unrelated sub-topic of "the Holy Spirit" here under this thread is being discontinued.

No, we do not "control God's ability" (as someone suggests).

No, we do not believe "the entire fate of the world depends on how we perceive the Holy Spirit" (as someone suggests).

No, we are not "spiritually 'dissecting' the Holy Spirit" (as someone suggests).

No, we are not "trying to psychoanalyze God" (as someone suggests).

Arguments of that nature being presented here are no longer conducive to an in-depth study of this complicated biblical issue.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: FSHS

March 15 2014, 2:49 PM 

Bill,

Scripture definitely answered your question: "... was Jesus mistaken when He referred to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Matt. 28:19?"

Scripture responded: "Jesus was misunderstood, not mistaken."

How did you miss that?

There's also nothing wrong with Matt. 28:19 -- only your assumption that "the Spirit of" the Father [Matt. 10:20] or Jesus Christ [Phil. 1:19; Romans 8:9] is another PERSON or BEING.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.211.189

Re: Understanding Change Agents (by John Waddey)

March 14 2014, 11:39 PM 

Donnie, if the Holy Spirit and Trinity are unrelated to this thread as you say, then there was no need for you to belabor your arguments about them yet again and rehash them in your response to Sarge/Coach. As you suggested about my as-yet unpublished post, you should follow your own advice and transfer your comments "to one of the Trinity or Holy Spirit threads already in existence."

If you will "practice what you preach," you will gain the respect of your readers. happy.gif

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.240.239.59

Re: Understanding Change Agents (by John Waddey)

March 15 2014, 4:18 PM 

Donnie, Sarge's post on March 14 reflects my own thoughts [. . .], that transfer is no longer necessary. happy.gif

===================

Thanks for letting us know. It's been removed permanently.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Mar 15, 2014 7:31 PM


 
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120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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