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Bill
(no login)
74.179.242.97

"Does the Holy Spirit Help the Christian?"

March 14 2014, 12:57 PM 


[. . .]

________________________

This post has been removed and is awaiting its transfer to any of the threads discussing "The Trinity" or "The Holy Spirit."


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.250.192 on Mar 15, 2014 2:05 PM


 
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Sarge
(no login)
108.230.197.238

Re: Understanding Change Agents (by John Waddey)

March 16 2014, 10:38 AM 

While you all argue over what you don't understand about the Holy Spirit, the "change agents" sneak their way into the Church. This is what John Waddey was talking about.


[linked image]

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Understanding Change Agents (by John Waddey)

March 16 2014, 9:01 PM 

Sarge,

Great image!!!

Thing is that all the discussion about the Holy Spirit/Trinity in this thread ("Understanding Change Agents") has been as a result of your instigating post above, "DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT HELP THE CHRISTIAN? (by John Waddey)."

I gathered that you honestly wanted a discussion of "the Holy Spirit." Yes? No? At the same time, you were missed. You're KOOL!!!

John Waddey and I had corresponded with each other via e-mail quite often in years past and exchanged ideas pertaining to "change agents" operating in the brotherhood. He appreciated me asking permission for CM to publish many of his articles and book reviews.

Welcome back, Sarge.

I really like the image -- it really illustrates the change agents' behavior, with or without the discussion of "the Holy Spirit." We are fully aware that they use other weapons.

Your message is well taken -- we'll continue discussing the change agents.




 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Paul identifies change agents as DRACULAS

March 17 2014, 11:42 AM 

[linked image]

 
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Sarge
(no login)
108.230.197.238

Re: Paul identifies change agents as DRACULAS

March 17 2014, 12:45 PM 

Ken, clean up the header and you will have no oil in the water. Good job!

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

The "Pastor" and the "Worship Leader"

April 12 2014, 4:18 PM 

In my earlier post (3/9/14), I asked about "the relationship between Jason Shepherd, the young minister, and Chris Lindsey, the young 'worship leader,' and his supporting cast [the quartet performing on stage] and the rest of his Praise Team in the front rows."

Someone [??] responded: "We get along great! Worship is not the place or time for self promoting!" Then Scripture offered a good analysis of "Reinforcement Praise."

A couple of weeks after (3/23/14), I was a bit surprised when at the outset Jason remarked to the effect that if one was writing down notes ... to note that "I like working with Chris Lindsey ... as 'a team.'"

Is Jason keeping up with CM and its stand against the change agents' efforts to "communitize" the church [cf. the "Community Church Movement"] ... or is someone keeping him informed?

What does "like working with Chris" mean? How sincere was that remark? Was the remark a result of what was said in the earlier post?

Chris Lindsey is into post-modernizing "worship" made for TV and executive-producing the "worship program." Jason is into experimenting with Rick Warren's (and other denominational leaders') teachings and beliefs.

Are they both complimentary of each other's "leadership" role? Is their leadership replacing that of the elders [excuse me: it's "shepherds" ... these days, duh]? Do their new-and-improved teachings and beliefs complement each other's?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
162.72.101.93

Re: Understanding Change Agents (by John Waddey)

April 12 2014, 4:42 PM 

Both the Bible and contemporaneous literature (some 1 to 2 thousand years before Moses warned the instrumental idolaters) that once you have SOLD your body especially as an ADORNMENT to some religious institution you have FALLEN and you will never get up again: like the maggots of Tophet you will be burned alive on God's garbage heap but you will still be aware. Anathema means a person or thing such as a Levite as soothsayer-sorcerer you cannot be redeemed and MUST BE BURNED. The Jews are still looking for ONE of their ten thousand harps (from Egypt) so can restart the temple.

That is why these people cannot read the Text: God sends strong delusions made visible and audible by the speakers, singers and instrument players CLAIMING to be selling their bodies because they are led by "a" spirit.

[linked image]
[linked image]

Sing it! "No turning back, no turning back." I will post some of the religious prostitution stuff especially if you have mixed-sex choirs PREFORMING in the "holy places."


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 162.72.101.93 on Apr 12, 2014 5:18 PM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

One Way to Express: "No turning back, no turning back" ... to the evil ways

April 13 2014, 4:26 PM 

An "Indian Folk Hymn" that was quite popular and frequently sung in the assembly after it was written in the late 50s:

I Have Decided to Follow Jesus

... Tho' none go with me I still will follow
... My cross I'll carry til I see Jesus ...
No turning back, no turning back.


But the biblical message is gone by the wayside: "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." (Matt. 16:24)

Why? Because of the "grace covers it all" or "once saved, always saved" mentality. Besides, contemporary "religious" music has become a self-satisfying verbal communication "with God" [heartfelt but without action?]: "I love you, my darling Jesus. I praise you, God."

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

The Defiant Way: "The old paths ... we will not walk therein"

April 13 2014, 4:31 PM 

I cannot visualize a modern-day self-appointed, church-employed "Worship Leader" directing his/her co-leading choir members comprised of both men and WOMEN" performing on stage ... during the assembly of saints in the first century.

The answer to such a spiritual anomaly is found here:


"Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will NOT walk therein." (Jeremiah 6:16)


SOLUTION: "The old paths ... we will walk therein."

 
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Tom Brite
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23.127.168.72

Re: The Defiant Way: "The old paths ... we will not walk therein"

April 16 2014, 1:00 PM 

I equally can not visualize the first century gathering of saints taking place in a church building, nor a song leader or preacher at a pulpit while the other members sit in a pew. Neither can I visualize members taking the Lord's Supper in a bit of a cracker broken off from a metal tray or drinking from individual plastic cups passed around the congregation. There is much that has changed over the centuries without the message of Christ being changed.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.197.219.99

Re: The Defiant Way: "The old paths ... we will not walk therein"

April 16 2014, 1:57 PM 

Tom is absolutely correct. I have never attended a congregation that did no believe and practice a "worship" service which was a play in five acts. It was something performed for or on behalf of the congregation. That was a rebuild of the Catholic Mass which was held daily. The Mass was a naval demanding a staff who made certain that the usually-absent audience did not lose contact with God. This has recorded history to say that it was financed by the Lord of the Manor to intimidate the serfs and force God to protect his serfdom. Latter day hostile takeovers are not justified by the previous saying to Jesus: "NO, we WILL NOT speak that which you have commanded to be taught."

Melody never meant tunefulness and melody is not four groups, singing four sets of words, to four different tunes at four different times. Complex harmony is medically proven to shut down the mind or spirit and I know of no one who even SINGS that which is written for our learning: singing is still seen as an act to KEEP CONTACT with God and to affirm the Alpha Male.

Of Gods and Men the Origins of Western Culture, H. Bamford Parkes

When tribes grew too large for effective co-operation (and inbred), they often became subdivided into smaller kinship groups (clans, sibs, gentes) which continued to regard each other as close allies. Government was exercised by individual chieftains assisted by councils of elders" (p. 26).

"In this fashion evey common tribal interest--the recurrence of the seasons, the increase of the food supply, successful hunting--was likely to become embodied in some regularly repeated ceremony, which usually included group dancing, singing, and feasting.

Besides enabling men to express, and thereby to allay, ANGER and ANXIETY, such ceremonies also promoted tribal UNITY and strengthened the loyalty of the individual to TRIBAL TRADITION, for the emotional excitement they aroused had the effect of breaking down the barriers between individuals and thus fusing all tribesmen into a collective whole. Meanwhile, whole systems of magical devices were gradually elaborated." (Parkes, p. 29)


That story is well documented by Scripture and coming to a church near you:

Plato, Euthydemus, Protagoras, Gorgias, Meno

[289e] For not only do these speech-writers themselves, when I am in their company, impress me as prodigiously clever, Cleinias, but their art itself seems so exalted as to be almost inspired. [thaumaston Lying Wonder] However, this is not surprising; for it is a part of the sorcerer's art,

[290a] and only slightly inferior to that. The sorcerer's art is the CHARMING of snakes and tarantulas and scorpions and other beasts and diseases, while the other is just the charming and soothing of juries, assemblies, crowds, and so forth. Or does it strike you differently? I asked.

SORCERY or soothsaying to CHARM your pants off and pick the widow's purse is called "clergy singers, instrument players or cunning craftsmen which includes all of what Jesus identified as the hypocritic arts and crafts including theater builders and stage managers.

Monkeys never fall far from their trees and the Alpha Billy Goat never leaves the HILLS

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.242.83

Re: The Defiant Way: &quot;The old paths ... we will not walk therein&quot;

April 16 2014, 3:40 PM 

The principles of first-century Christian worship are still in practice today, even if the physical settings have greatly changed. Early Christians congregated to worship, to sing or chant praises, to hear the Word, to pray, to take the Lord's Supper, and to give of their means.

People can worship quite well whether they meet in a building, a tent, in a pasture, on a mountaintop, or beside a river. The physical setting is immaterial.

People can sing/chant quite well with or without a song leader or hymnals. Hymnals only help people remember the words to the many hymns that have been written. A song leader simply keeps the congregants on track with their singing/chanting. How the singing/chanting is conducted is immaterial.

People can take the Lord's Supper quite well whether there is one large piece of unleavened bread that is passed around or "bit of a cracker" or one cup or many cups. The many cups help to prevent spread of communicable diseases, as do individual "bits of cracker." How the symbols of the Lord's Supper are transported among the congregation is immaterial.

People can give their offerings quite well, whether they are tossed into a plate, a sack, or a bucket. The method of collecting an offering is immaterial.

A person who delivers the Word of God may do so just as well by standing or sitting among the congregation or behind a pulpit; hence, the issue is immaterial.

The physical settings for Christian worship may have changed today in churches of Christ, but they are immaterial. The message of the Gospel has not changed, nor have the principles of first-century Christian worship.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: The Defiant Way: &amp;quot;The old paths ... we will not walk therein&amp;quot;

April 17 2014, 2:16 AM 

"The principles of first-century Christian worship are still in practice today...." Are you sure? "In practice" by whom? Which practices are New Testament-based?

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.210.51

Re: The Defiant Way: &amp;amp;quot;The old paths ... we will not walk therein&amp;amp;quot;

April 17 2014, 3:14 AM 

I gather you would have everyone believe that the first-century Christians never congregated together on the first day of the week to sing/chant praises, to take the Lord's Supper, to pray together, to read and study the Word of God, and to give of their means. You would have everyone believe that, disregarding the physical settings and accouterments, worship in traditional churches of Christ today doesn't even come close to following the principles of first-century Christian worship.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: The Defiant Way: &amp;amp;quot;The old paths ... we will not walk therein&amp;amp;quot;

April 18 2014, 12:05 AM 

Chanting. Chanting in Latin especially. Hmm. I think I like the "primitive" manner in which the Catholics do this. It would be ideal if chant texts were drawn from the Bible, even the Latin Vulgate.

Would you have an issue with serving cornbread during the Lord's Supper so long as it is observed on the first day of the week? Better yet: having a "fellowship" meal of BBQ pork chops and drinks as/during the Lord's Supper?

 
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Sarge
(no login)
108.230.196.191

Re: The Defiant Way: "The old paths ... we will not walk therein"

April 17 2014, 10:02 AM 

A person who delivers the Word of God may do so just as well by standing or sitting among the congregation or behind a pulpit; hence, the issue is immaterial.

********************

Just to expound a "bit", a person who delivers the Word of God may utilize a microphone/PA system. It is not really the person's voice but an accurate reproduction. Families may utilize television to participate in the televised Church services and make offerings via PayPal. Families may utilize the computer based program "Face Time" to teach and admonish one another. Hence, the issue is immaterial? Just how far do you want to go? happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.197.219.99

Re: The Defiant Way: &quot;The old paths ... we will not walk therein&quot;

April 17 2014, 2:07 PM 

There is no command, example or remote inference of any assembly for congregational singing. There is no command for Laying by AT CHURCH in the Bible, church history or in the realm of ethics.

http://www.piney.com/LayByInStore.html

Some of the TITHING extortion at Madison.

http://www.piney.com/Lay.by.him.in.store.html

"If there is a poor man with you, one of your brothers, in any of your towns in your land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand from your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and shall generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks" (Deut. 15:7, 8-11).

H5670 abat aw-bat' A primitive root; to pawn; causatively to lend (on security); figuratively to entangle: borrow, break [ranks], fetch [a pledge], lend, X surely.

"Concerning budgets--it is now a mark of the identity of a scriptural church to have or not to have certain benevolent programs and missionary projects in the budget; but the time was when churches had no such problems, for there were no budgets. The apportionment of the contributions into a pre-arranged budget is comparatively new, and it met with opposition for the early writers of both the Gospel Advocate and the Firm Foundation, perhaps for the foreseen reason of what is happening now--an an issue develops on what may or may not be scripturally included in the budget, and the budget becomes a sacramental thing, the depository for the 'Lord's Money.'" (Foy E. Wallace, Jr., The Gospel for Today, p 552)


There is no example of any Church/Synagogue ever assembling to hear a preacher: the command was to PREACH the Word by READING the Word for Comfort and Doctrine. The text was marked for rhymic prose to make hearing and understanding "that which is written for our learning."

Visiting Apostles-Evangelists did not PREACH as in Troas: He Dialoged or discussed the Text which he had been inspired to teach.

There is no example of anyone attending an assembly to LAY BY IN STORE. The first day was the first day of work and therefore INCOME. Jimmy was to LAY BY JIMMY a small part of that income--if any. There would be NO COLLECTIONS after Paul arrived and He might be there ALL WINTER.

The only collection for the synagogue was a poor box in the back for Widows and Orphans.

The pattern in the historic church when they gathered probably after long travel was that EACH might give a small sum for the destitute but ONLY IF HE WISHED. This was to meet the frequent needs of people travelling and needing food. Any left-overs was KEPT by the president and not spend on himself or any STAFF INFECTION called PARASITES in all Jewish and Pagan religions.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 99.197.219.99 on Apr 17, 2014 4:36 PM


 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.13.175

Re: The Defiant Way: &quot;The old paths ... we will not walk therein&quot;

April 17 2014, 4:21 PM 

So Ken is in the process of restructuring the church of Christ assembly so that there will be NO singing on the first day of the week, NO preaching, NO collection for the saints, NO study of God's Word, NO praying together, and NO taking of the Lord's Supper. Evidently Ken has convinced himself that, according to his uncertain interpretation of the New Testament, NONE of these things is associated with the assembly on the first day of the week.

While the change agents strive to restructure the assembly to make it more entertaining, Ken and Donnie strive to restructure the assembly such that Christians do virtually nothing except look at one another and maybe argue about what constitutes the Spirit OF God.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: The Defiant Way: &amp;quot;The old paths ... we will not walk therein&amp;quot;

April 17 2014, 11:30 PM 

How perceptive!!! [I'm referring to the first paragraph. Really creative thinking.]

The second paragraph is not as perceptive -- if that's all the change agents are striving to do. So, if it weren't for that element of entertainment, Bill would be on the side of the change agents.

 
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Sarge
(no login)
108.230.196.191

Re: The Defiant Way: &quot;The old paths ... we will not walk therein&quot;

April 18 2014, 9:50 AM 

In Christianity, legalism is the excessive and improper use of the law (10 commandments, holiness laws, etc). This legalism can take different forms. The first is where a person attempts to keep the Law in order to attain salvation. The second is where a person keeps the law in order to maintain his salvation. The third is when a Christian judges other Christians for not keeping certain codes of conduct that he thinks need to be observed.

 
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This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!

...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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