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Scripture
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23.117.130.209

Re: Grace Unchained

November 1 2014, 2:18 PM 

I've seen these "horsehair" worms crawling on the water surface in the backup river waters during a flood.

I thought it just must have been my imagination!

 
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Justice
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108.230.196.85

Working...Working...Working

October 30 2014, 3:46 PM 

Perhaps for some it is time to get back to work.



[linked image]


_____________________________

Not that there's no interest in seeing "the BIG picture," but that the image was larger than a 13-inch screen ... had to reduce its height and width.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 23.127.32.146 on Oct 31, 2014 12:56 AM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Working...Working...Working

November 1 2014, 12:21 AM 

Justice,

The image reminds me of the truth that a Christian is to do GOOD WORKS!!!

Scripture explained it very well in an earlier post -- the interplay between grace and works. Sadly and unfortunately, the preaching change agents in the church of Christ are learning and acquiring erroneous teachings from their denominational schoolmates. Grace. It's all about grace, they say, and God's grace covers it all ... and nothing about "human endeavor." But how should these agents respond to: Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" (Romans 6:1).

Ephesians 2:8,9 is often misinterpreted. I just checked parallel translations of the passage. In regard to salvation ("saved by grace"):

(1) 12 [the majority] of the 20 versions expressed the event in either past tense ("WERE SAVED by grace") or present perfect tense ("HAVE BEEN SAVED by grace")

(2) 8 of the 20 versions expressed the event in the present tense: "For by grace ARE ye saved through faith" -- the KJV included.

Properly understanding Ephesians 2:8,9 should lead one to conclude that there is an initial or past salvation (Acts 2:37,38) by being baptized into Christ in order to remit SINS THAT ARE PAST (Rom. 3:25). No good works are required at conversion!!!!

But the new Christian is to remain faithful (Rev. 2:10) -- this is present salvation. Phil. 2:12 directs us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." James 2 clearly tells us that faith without works is dead.

Properly understanding Ephesians 2:10 [just the following verse regarding grace] should lead one to conclude that in our present salvation, we are to do good works. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works...."

The Christian is to do good works.

There is no contradiction between grace and works when we "study ... rightly dividing the word of truth" (II Tim. 2:15).

 
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Scripture
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23.117.130.209

Re: Working...Working...Working

November 1 2014, 10:19 AM 

In other words, "walk the talk."

 
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Justice
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108.230.196.85

Re: Working...Working...Working

November 1 2014, 12:26 PM 

Just for Scripture.

[linked image] height=



_____________________________

Not that there's no interest in seeing "the BIG picture," but that the image was larger than a 13-inch screen ... had to reduce its size.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 23.127.32.146 on Nov 1, 2014 1:38 PM


 
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Scripture
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23.117.130.209

Re: Working...Working...Working

November 1 2014, 2:01 PM 

When man's work is done. . . .

http://www.hymntime.com/tch/htm/w/o/r/workfort.htm

I've heard these complaints about working songs since the 1980s when an woman in her 80s complaint about them.

"They make me tired."

 
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Justice
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108.230.196.85

Re: Working...Working...Working

November 2 2014, 6:57 AM 



"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost but now am found, Was blind, but now I see.
‘Twas Grace that taught my heart to fear, And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear the hour I first believed!
Through many dangers, toils and snares, we have already come.
‘Twas Grace that brought us safe thus far and Grace will lead us home.
The Lord has promised good to me, His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be as long as life endures.
Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail, and mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil, a life of joy and peace.
When we've been here ten thousand years, bright shining as the sun,
We've no less days to sing God's praise than when we've first begun.
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found, Was blind, but now, I see.”
—“Amazing Grace” by John Newton.



 
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Scripture
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23.117.130.209

Re: Working...Working...Working

November 2 2014, 4:57 PM 

According to Newton, grace and toils are interlaced.

John Newton says grace taught him to see, brought fear as well as relief, came with belief.

Grace brings him through toils, makes him safe, leads him home, is secured through the Word.

Grace will give him a life of joy and peace in the hereafter.

We sing ten thousand years there.


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.197.222.189

Re: Working...Working...Working

November 2 2014, 5:32 PM 

It is of Biblical Proportions to see people dancing on hot coals because they cannot define a simple word.

Eph. 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Eph. 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given ME to you-ward:


The Dispensation of Grace refutes the Jew's rest on The Law or Religious works. It is:

Eph. 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph. 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph. 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph. 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Eph. 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.


PAUL'S VISUAL AID OF A DISPENSATION OF GRACE GIVEN TO A PREACHER IN THE EVANGELISTS SENSE

2Cor. 6:1 ¶ We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Cor. 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee:
behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
2Cor. 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
2Cor. 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
2Cor. 6:5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
2Cor. 6:6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
2Cor. 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
2Cor. 6:8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
2Cor. 6:9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
2Cor. 6:10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.


The Grace Centered people WILL NOT go and dispense Grace or Word or Spirit which TEACHES you to silence the GRACE PERFORMERS.

 
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Justice
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108.230.196.85

Re: Working...Working...Working

November 2 2014, 2:34 PM 

Scripture said: In other words, "walk the talk."

**********

Perhaps [...] is reminiscing about an old Lou Reed song? happy.gif


==============

CM: "Scripture" is only 2 characters to enter more than "Justice" ... especially if one is a good typist. happy.gif


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 23.127.32.146 on Nov 2, 2014 6:14 PM


 
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Justice
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108.230.196.85

Re: Working...Working...Working

November 3 2014, 7:41 AM 


==================

Justice, I don't know the answer to your difficult question. I don't have the wisdom of Solomon. happy.gif


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 23.127.32.146 on Nov 3, 2014 10:22 PM


 
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Scripture
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23.117.130.209

Re: Working...Working...Working

November 2 2014, 9:32 PM 

Good analysis of Ephesians 2:8-9.

I looked up "[were or are] saved by grace" and the literal translation is shown in Young's Literal Translation, and also in Greek-English Diaglots as

Ye are [having been] saved by grace. . . ."

So the translators are left with the problem with whether to emphasize that they were saved or that they are still being saved.

No doubt, they were saved and continue in that saved status through faith--after of course repenting and being baptized as they had been.

 
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Justice
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108.230.196.85

Off Topic

October 31 2014, 11:05 AM 


Rumor has it that the "Grammar" thread is no longer locked. Was this a negotiated benefit upon "Bill's" return? I'm not one to stir the pot but I am curious. There is also a typo in the message header now. Donnie, can you inform us about these changes?
happy.gif

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Off Topic

November 1 2014, 2:13 PM 

Justice,

Those with editing privileges can "lock" and "unlock" a thread. So, it must have been unlocked at some point ... I don't know when. It's been a while since the last post was submitted: the INDEX of threads or pages shows October 16, 2011.

All has been restored, but the thread will remain "locked" [again] as it already served its purpose [and abuses sad.gif] at the time.

Thanks for the info.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.197.222.189

Re: Donnie and KEPT SAFE by grace through faith part A

November 1 2014, 2:00 PM 

David Skidmore Saved By Grace Through faith.

http://www.piney.com/David.Skidmore.Ephesians.2.html

I have reviewed this because David has been the Purpose Driver at one of my old "investments with the lord." When people speak of Grace they don't usually want to discuss it but USE it. They in fact confess WE GONNA SIN but GRACE GONNA save us. That means save us from being excised by God for bring music in the "holy places."

http://www.piney.com/Amos.8.html

and give them permission to deliberately SOW discord and drive away the faithful so WE CAN HAVE UNITY.

As Donnie noted, We are saved in the sense of the Remission of Sins only by obeying Christ in baptism.

No one has their sins remitted by inactive faith
No one receives A holy spirit or A good conscience by faith only.
No one has their spirits translated into the heavenly kingdom by faith
No one is added to the ekklesia or universal church by faith only.
No one is "washed with water into the WORD" meaning into the SCHOOL OF CHRIST by just believing in Jesus.
No one is separated FROM that crooked race, the World for which Jesus does not pay without being baptized to "save yourselves from this crooked race." In fact, the GRACE-ONLY cults insists says Shelly etal WE SHOULD BE AS MUCH AS MUCH LIKE THE WORLD TO SAVE THE WORLD. Now, they gonna SAVE THE WORLD by their conduct!!

Pistis or faith includes to COMPLY
Apistos or believeth not means I will not comply and marks treachery.

SAVED FROM WHAT they seem unable to begin at the beginning of the PATTERN.

Purpose Driven Cult: Baptism doesn't make you a believer -- it only shows that you believe. Baptism dose not "save" you,only yourfaith in Christ does that.

"For it is by trace that you have been saved, through faith... it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast."


Paul is speaking of GRACE, THE FAITH, THE GOSPEL in contrast to THE LAW of Moses in which only the Jews BOASTED. Obeying a direct command is NOT obeying THE LAW OF MOSES.

You missed the BOAT if you pick out "dogma" in OPPOSITION to just reading and understanding THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING. It is not written as a PATTERN for selling the FREE WORD.

[linked image]


 
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Scripture
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23.117.130.209

Re: Donnie and KEPT SAFE by grace through faith part A

November 1 2014, 2:10 PM 

It is prophesied, "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Matthew 7:23

34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

Matthew 25:34-35

Churches that are built on the sand will not stand.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Donnie vs. 'KEPT SAFE BY Grace Through Faith Only'

November 1 2014, 5:09 PM 

Donnie vs. "KEPT SAFE BY Grace Through Faith Only"

That would make a good premise.

The initial salvation (for the remission of past sins by being BURIED with Christ in baptism -- which is CONVERSION) occurs only ONCE. It means that one is not baptized every time sin is committed.

We are under GRACE in contrast to those under the LAW or the OLD COVENANT.

While we are (still) under grace, we are not exempt from being obedient to God's commands.

As Scripture said, "when man's work is done...." The song: "To the work! To the work! We are servant of God, let us follow the path that our Master has trod ... and labor till the Master comes." The change agents do not want to sing that anymore, since "grace covers it all," according to them.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.197.222.189

Re: Donnie and KEPT SAFE by grace through faith part A

November 1 2014, 8:38 PM 

Those verses--and all of them read properly--refute the UNIVERSALISM of those who mean WE WILL SELL OUR BOOKS TO ANYONE and we will accept the contribution of all who offer. I will add them to my Richard Beck paper.

This may be the strong delusion God slapped on them when they insisted that WE should fellowship the instrumental sectarians by NOT talking back when WE impose a worship team and then instruments cause WE GONNA SAVE MORE SOULS.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.197.222.189

The Theologian as Buffoon: God's wrath. Saved from WHAT A1

November 2 2014, 2:43 PM 

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.197.222.189

SAVED FROM the World or Theology parg A2

November 2 2014, 4:53 PM 

To rehearse: the word to be saved first means to be SAFE FROM the Crooked Race or the people OF the World. They speak of themselves says Jesus because they are the SONS OF THE DEVIL. These two races have always been in mortal compact and John says that the religious speakers for hire, singers and instrument players are SORCERERS who HAD deceived the whole world. This last earth age they are to be CAST ALIVE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

When you write a song or sermon it is a MYTH and a muthos is anything opposite to the LOGOS or Regulative principle. If you then debunk the classical myths and legends you will never grasp that the Scriptures (Prophets and Apostles) prove that the people then and now worship the CREATURES (real and imagined) in order NOT to worship the Creature.

Only after you have been SAVED FROM the WORLD are you in the ekklesia as a SAFE HOUSE in your own property. You assemble only as SYNAGOGUE which was for Preaching the Word by READING the Word without private interpretation or further expounding: that says Peter would have you debunking the Spirit OF God which breathed the WORD into Jesus Christ.

We don't know what Paul had in mind without understanding the Literature he understood as a minimally-literate citizen. However, whatever is defined as the WORLD'S religious practices, a Disciple of Christ would not INTENTIONALLY impose any of it to MAKE THE LAMBS DUMB BEFORE THE SLAUGHTER unless they were predoomed.

[linked image]

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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