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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Faith does not make the wrong equation correct

December 21 2014, 2:31 AM 

Hey, I have faith that all things are possible with God. But faith does not alter the truth that it was the Word (LOGOS) in the beginning that became flesh 2000 years ago. Let's not change that truth at your convenience.

"I don't see this as a 'salvation' issue" -- I think I've heard that before. That simply means, based on our discussion, that to you "God the Father" is also Jesus Christ, "the Son of God."

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Re: The Equation Is Right IF You Have the Faith

December 25 2014, 10:54 PM 

John 1
14 The Word (Logos) became flesh (Jesus) and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son (Jesus, Logos, the Word) who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

1 In the beginning was the Word (since the Word became flesh, then the Word is Jesus), and the Word was with God, and the Word (Logos is Jesus) was God (Theos).

Jesus was/is God.

Donnie, you may be getting stuck on verse 14 because it states that the only Son, Jesus the Word, CAME FROM the Father.

This is not your normal progression of Father and must agree. This is GOD and JESUS.
Being that Jesus is the only Son of God, then He, Jesus, is totally like none other. God gave Jesus all the Power and Glory, and YES, no matter how much you explain it, YES, God has the right to bestow on Jesus His very own Diety.

Jesus is God. Jesus is King. God made it this way and fortunately for all of us, you nor no one else can change that.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: The Equation Is Right IF You Have the Faith

December 26 2014, 1:21 AM 


The events you listed are out of sequence:

(1) That the event that occurred 2000 years ago was first [verse 14].
(2) That "in the beginning" occurred next [verse 1].

The correct sequence is obviously as follows:

(1) "In the beginning":
--------- was the Word (LOGOS),
--------- was God (THEOS) also
(2) 2000 years ago, LOGOS (God's uttered WORD) became flesh; since THEOS (God is a spirit) could/did not become flesh.

You said that "God gave Jesus all the Power and Glory ... God has the right to bestow on Jesus His very own Diety." [direct quote]

... which I agree with.

The problem is when you substitute God for Jesus. If Jesus was God, why would God bestow all ... to God?

The truth is that it was God (only the Father) who sent His Son as prophesied.

There is a difference between:

(1) God the Father
-------- and ------
(2) The Son of God (the Father)

Again, it was the Word (LOGOS), not THEOS, that became flesh.

There is a difference between LOGOS and THEOS, although LOGOS [the Word uttered by God] was God in the beginning.

Perhaps, this will help explain: that THEOS (who is a Spirit [please read John 4:24] cannot be made flesh. (I don't think that the spirit and the flesh can mix or that the spirit can become flesh.) So, it was the Word (LOGOS) that became flesh.

I appreciate your comment, Dave.

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Re: Non Eternal Jesus

December 20 2014, 2:51 PM 

Old Testament: "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you" (Ex. 3:14 KJV).

New Testament: "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58 KJV).

These two passages are more evidence that God and Jesus are one and the same. Both refer to themselves as "I AM," which means eternal, never-ending.

Jesus is simply God made manifest in the flesh. God/Jesus as the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Therefore, God = Jesus = the Word.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

WRONG Equation -- Again

December 20 2014, 11:51 PM 

(1) "I AM" is a name, God's name. Otherwise, "I am hath sent me unto you" would be grammatically incorrect. Rather, God the Father sent Moses to the Israelites. It was not Jesus of Nazareth who sent Moses to the Israelites.

(2) Context, Bill, in John 8:51-59. Jesus was definitely speaking of both: (1) God the Father and (2) Jesus himself as the Son of God. "I AM" being in reference to God the Father, Jesus simply said: Before Abraham was "I AM"; and Jesus did NOT say: "I was before Abraham."

Bill, I think you really do understand the difference between:

(1) Before Abraham was "I AM" [God]
---------------- and -----------------
(2) I was before Abraham.

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Re: WRONG Equation -- Again

December 21 2014, 12:07 AM 

God/Jesus used the SAME wording about Himself when He talked to Moses in the Old Testament and when He talked to the Jews in the New Testament: "I AM". Those two words mean the same thing on both occasions: "I am eternal. I am forever."

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: WRONG Equation -- Again

December 21 2014, 12:43 AM 

"I AM" is God the Father.

"God the Father" (referenced at least 20 times in the Bible)

-------------------- is not the same as -----------------------

Jesus Christ as "the Son of God" (referenced at least 50 times) ... and only in the New Testament.

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(no login)

Re: WRONG Equation -- Again

December 22 2014, 3:17 PM 

HOW CAN a common man change font size and boldness?

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)


December 23 2014, 2:19 AM 

< >There should be a beginning tag preceding the text (see left) and an ending tag following the text (see right). < >

Bolding: Insert letter b in the beginning tag and /b in the ending tag.

Underlining: Insert letter u in the beginning tag and /u in the ending tag.

Italicizing: Insert letter i in the beginning tag and /i in the ending tag.

Font Changing: Insert font size=4 color=blue face=times in the beginning tag; insert /font in the ending tag.


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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Scripture said that Messiah existed in PROPHECY before Abraham.

December 21 2014, 12:47 PM 

Don't expect too much, DONNIE.

Jesus existed and the PLAN existed in the Mind of God: Jesus didn't exist before He existed.

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him,
.....Thou art not yet fifty years old,
and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
.....Before Abraham WAS, I AM.

AM never means God: He AM without respect to time. Jesus was the IMAGE of God in TIME and therefore He is god (Eloyhim) as a Prophet like Moses, but He is NOT Jehovah.

AM ISEimi I.ibo, In Prose eimi serves as FUTURE. to erkhomai, I shall go, SHALL come. to come or go,

Erkhomai loci, come to, arrive at, which comes or passes to a person by BEQUEST
, conveyance, arrived at that time of life,

For disciples, this is explained by Peter. HE was in the Mind of God BEFORE Abraham as the SEED of the woman destined to STOMP the SEED (sperm) of the Devil and of CAIN meaning a MUSICAL NOTE OR MARK.

1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pet. 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet. 1:20 Who verily was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world,
but was MANIFEST in these last times for you,

I AM is used of God but it does not mean Jehovah. Notice that that the WORD or Logos is something JEHOVAH puts in the mouth of His PROPHETS such as the Prophets by the Spirit OF Christ (Messiah)

Deut. 18:18 I will raise up a PROPHET among their countrymen like you, and I will put My WORD (dabar, logos)s in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

A WORD or the PLAN of God is something HE puts in the MOUTH of Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus SPEAKS that Word but He is NOT the PLAN or "patternism" of the New World View of Ecumenical for which Jesus doesn't even pray.

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Re: Why is the Virgin Birth so important?

December 18 2014, 11:17 AM 

If God were physical, then it would be quite difficult, if not impossible, for Him to be Jesus and for Jesus to be fully God. But John 1 tells us that the Word was WITH God AND the Word WAS God. The Word, being Jesus, was with God in the beginning, and at the same time, that Word was God. Then the Word/God/Jesus became flesh "and dwelt among us." Now, how is all of this possible? Observe:

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible" (Mark 10:27 KJV).

ALL THINGS (even those that boggle the human mind) are possible with God. Jesus also said:

"Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth" (Mark 9:23 KJV).

The faithful are fully able to believe that Jesus was God on earth and that Jesus was the Word Who was WITH God and WAS God in the beginning.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Why is the Virgin Birth so important?

December 19 2014, 3:23 AM 

(1) There is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER (I Cor. 8:6)
------------------- and --------------------

(1) For there is ONE GOD and FATHER of all (I Tim. 2:5; Eph. 4:6)
------------------- and --------------------
(2) ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man CHRIST JESUS (I Tim. 2:5)

(1) GOD (Acts 2:36)
------------------- hath made that same ----------------
(2) JESUS, whom ye have crucified, both LORD and CHRIST (Acts 2:36)

(1) For my FATHER (John 14:28)
------------------- is GREATER THAN -------------------
(2) I (John 14:28)

"The Word (LOGOS) was made flesh" (John 1:14) [no word substitution allowed].

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Re: Why is the Virgin Birth so important?

December 19 2014, 3:44 AM 

All things are possible with God, but not all people believe that.

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(no login)

Re: Why is the Virgin Birth so important?

December 19 2014, 10:12 AM 

We also know that Jesus is God because:

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" (John 14:9 KJV).

"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30 KJV).

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us (Matt. 1:23 KJV).

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Phl 2:5-6 KJV).

According to Jesus, you see Jesus = you see God the Father.

Jesus = Emmanuel = God with us.

The Word (Who was with God and was God in the beginning) became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus became flesh and dwelt as God among us.

Only one heavenly being became flesh and dwelt among us.

Therefore, Jesus = the Word = God.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Again -- WRONG Equation

December 21 2014, 12:13 AM 

(1) John 14:9 -- Jesus is not the Father; the Father is not Jesus.

(2) John 10:30 -- Jesus and his Father are united (not 2 = 1).

(3) Matt. 1:23 -- "God with us" is the meaning of "Emmanuel."

(4) Phl 2:5-6 -- "Being in the form of God" does not equate to "is God."

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Why is the Virgin Birth so important?

December 19 2014, 1:44 PM 

The problem is that people think that Christ is a GOD WORD. Christ or one God has anointed is MESSIAH.

2Chr. 22:7 And the destruction of Ahaziah was of God by coming to Joram: for when he was come, he went out with Jehoram against Jehu the son of Nimshi, whom the LORD had anointed to cut off the house of Ahab.

That did not make him a God person any more than the ROCK was Christ or God's anointed supply of water.

H4886 mâshach maw-shakh' A primitive root; to rub with oil, that is, to anoint; by implication to consecrate; also to paint:—anoint, paint.

ungo to smear or anoint unctus

WE also receive that ANOINTING so we can READ that which God HIDES from the wise or sophists: speakers, singers, instrument players.

1John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy ONE, and ye know all things.

The almost-invisible number of the Little Flock receives A holy spirit or A good conscience by request at baptism. 2 Corinthians 3 Paul said that gives us the power to READ BLACK text on WHITE PAPER and understand that THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT.

Greek: G5545 chrisma khris'-mah From G5548 ; an unguent or smearing, that is, (figuratively) the special endowment (“chrism”) of the Holy Spirit:—anointing, unction.

The anointing of Jesus meant that HE did not speak anything ON HIS OWN. He was the MAN Jesus of Nazareth.

In Greek: G5547 Christos khris-tos' From G5548 ; anointed, that is, the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus:—Christ.

Get it? the word Christ can be confusing even among the scholars who believe, teach and collect a wage for DENYING that Messiah came IN THE FLESH as opposed to as a ROCK or as the anointing of the Prophets so they spoke what the Spirit OF Christ breathed into them. Spirit means wind or breath and NEVER as a people unless you have been anointed by Apollon as the MARKED FOR AVOIDANCE leader of the Muses.

It is possible for us to be ENDOWED by the Holy Spirit or BREATH of God when we SPEAK that which has been taught and can say "Thus saith the Lord."

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Why is the Virgin Birth so important?

December 18 2014, 2:44 PM 

The CHRISTIAN SECTARIANS are an almost invisible number but the ECUMENICAL or World are most of those you must see, hear, feel and smell. History notes that the trinity concept of father, mother (spirit, dove) in its modern three people configuration is a product of feminists or the effeminate. Spirit is Sophia in Judaism and paganism. The SOPHIA concept is focused on music and gender confusion. The LOGOS is WORD or what God SPEAKS. Karen Armstrong on Amos notes that the Jews were too effeminate to dialog with God. No historic Trinitarian ever hallucinated that the Spirit OF a Being was ANOTHER being. SPIRIT is a mark that neo-theologians cannot dialog with a male. Spirit means wind or breath: they ONLY recorded evidence of people PERSONIFYING a spirit was that of Abaddon or Apollyon.

Adam and Eve were the produce of the WORD or that which God SPEAKS. They did not have a physical mother or father but they were NOT gods.

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord [Kurios], one faith, one baptism,
Ephesians 4:6 One God [Theos] and Father of all,
who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

God is then the FATHER of Jesus of Nazareth: He declared Jesus His ONLY only after He was baptized.
God the Father is greater than Jesus of Nazareth:

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is GREATER than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.


Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
that God HATH MADE that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both LORD and Christ.

1Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Timothy 2:5 For there is ONE GOD THE FATHER
and one mediator between God and men,
the MAN Christ Jesus;
1Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

If they say--and they do--that the Holy Spirit is ANOTHER or number TWO mediator-intercessor they call Paul a liar.

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
He is ANTI-CHRIST, that denieth the Father and the Son.

The ONE GOD THE FATHER is father of ALL: the Father of all is the father of Jesus of Nazareth and Jesus MADE TO BE both Lord and Christ. Jesus was not GOD or He could NOT be the Messiah who was of the SPERM of Abraham. Lords are never Gods: Lords are given dominion over the VINEYARD of the owner. If you deny that Jesus of Nazareth was the manifest IMAGE and SOUND of God's Word you fail to justify the Father's ability. That's why people who tell you that they hear "a" spirit you MUST believe them: it will be the SPIRITUS of Apollon who makes the Graces and Muses (Locusts) His worship team because he rejects any male's right to any authority. The twanging bow sending a singing arrow into the literal heart; or the lyre sending love arrows into his male friends is uniquely an APOLLO Word. That's why Paul said "keep it silent silly" and just speak up like a male.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Dec 18, 2014 2:53 PM

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Re: Why is the Virgin Birth so important?

December 18 2014, 6:26 PM 

Perhaps, Ken means "spiritual seed of Abraham"? Ken does not mean actual "sperm'... or maybe he does?

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Re: Why is the Virgin Birth so important?

December 19 2014, 9:15 PM 


Greek word for seed is "sperma."

Men beget children, women bear them. The sperm fertilizes the egg.

Children are begotten of the Father, and born of the mother.

Ken is correct.

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Re: Why is the Virgin Birth so important?

December 20 2014, 10:05 AM 

I understand Ken may be very knowledgeable on SPERM but this is how it happened.

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit."

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

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The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

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5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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