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Justice
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Donnie and Ken on Bikes?

December 20 2014, 9:31 AM 

Arianism is named for Arius, a teacher in the early 4th century A.D. One of the earliest and probably the most important item of debate among early Christians was the subject of Christ’s deity. Was Jesus truly God in the flesh or was Jesus a created being? Was Jesus God or just like God? Arius held that Jesus was created by God as the first act of creation, that Jesus was the crowning glory of all creation. Arianism, then, is the view that Jesus was a created being with divine attributes, but was not divine in and of Himself.

Arianism misunderstands references to Jesus’ being tired (John 4:6) and not knowing the date of His return (Matthew 24:36). Yes, it is difficult to understand how God could be tired and/or not know something, but relegating Jesus to a created being is not the answer. Jesus was fully God, but He was also fully human. Jesus did not become a human being until the incarnation. Therefore, Jesus’ limitations as a human being have no impact on His divine nature or eternality.

A second major misinterpretation in Arianism is the meaning of “firstborn” (Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15-20). Arians understand “firstborn” in these verses to mean that Jesus was “born” or “created” as the first act of creation. This is not the case. Jesus Himself proclaimed His self-existence and eternality (John 8:58; 10:30). John 1:1-2 tells us that Jesus was “in the beginning with God.” In Bible times, the firstborn son of a family was held in great honor (Genesis 49:3; Exodus 11:5; 34:19; Numbers 3:40; Psalm 89:27; Jeremiah 31:9). It is in this sense that Jesus is God’s firstborn. Jesus is the preeminent member of God’s family. Jesus is the anointed one, the “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).

After nearly a century of debate at various early church councils, the Christian church officially denounced Arianism as a false doctrine. Since that time, Arianism has never been accepted as a viable doctrine of the Christian faith. Arianism has not died, however. Arianism has continued throughout the centuries in varying forms. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons of today hold a very Arian-like position on Christ’s nature. Just as the early church did, we must denounce any and all attacks on the deity of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.




 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Donnie and Ken on Bikes?

December 20 2014, 7:44 PM 

You forgot to name your source or link, Justice.

While I may not completely agree with Arius, he was much closer to the Scripture/truth than Constantine, the Pope, the Trinitarians, or any of the councils during his time.

 
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Just
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: Donnie and Ken on Bikes?

December 21 2014, 9:08 AM 


Oh well, might as well go in style! Pedaling Arianism happy.gif

http://www.rhoadescar.com/cycle-car.html

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Donnie and Ken on Bikes?

December 22 2014, 12:57 AM 

Yours may be a good idea. Pedaling is a good exercise. Comparing and contrasting Arianism and Trinitarianism should be a good mental exercise. Should we wonder which came first between the two? Undoubtedly, the Scripture came first. And both Arianism and Trinitarianism should be matched against what the Scripture teaches.

 
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Just
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108.230.196.85

Re: Donnie and Ken on Bikes?

December 21 2014, 3:21 PM 


Donnie, I'm not sure why I am here defending mainline COC doctrine against you and Ken. Maybe the joke is on me? I think you are on the wrong path for sure this time. Read the Jackson and Waddey articles at your leisure. Wayne Jackson issues a strong warning you may want to read and heed.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All!

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Donnie and Ken on Bikes?

December 22 2014, 1:35 AM 

Justice,

We should be defending the truth.

I'm not unaware that both Jackson and Waddey [I love them both and I love their conservative views], along with many others in the brotherhood, agree with Trinitarianism (since its invention and approval by the Roman Catholic Church and the Councils a few centuries after the apostolic age).

The popularity of the Trinity Creed since its inception cannot be underestimated. While the majority of preachers of the 20th-21st century era may believe in the Trinity Creed, I believe it is significant to learn if our Restoration forefathers held the same Trinity view. It is even more significant to learn and know what the Holy Scripture really teaches regarding the "Trinity Creed."

Trust me when I tell you that I was once fully a Trinity Creed follower -- and that following was not ever going to change (I thought).

That's what we're here to do -- study and rightly divide the word of truth, regardless of what Dr. William Crump says and believes. He's failed to realize that CM is not forcing anyone to believe certain doctrines. We present; we discuss; we debate -- that's the extent of this discussion board.

That I may disagree with Jackson and Waddey on certain issues is not a problem to me. Needless to say, no two individual Christians agree on everything. Neither of them is the final authority, nor is anyone of us. The Scripture is the final authority.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.209.7

Re: Donnie and Ken on Bikes?

December 23 2014, 9:39 AM 


[ . . .]


    
This message has been edited by madisonchurchofchrist from IP address 23.127.32.146 on Dec 24, 2014 12:31 AM


 
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Just
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: Donnie and Ken on Bikes?

December 24 2014, 3:32 PM 


Hey Bill, I heard you got a great severance package from CM. They provided you what you do best. That would be correcting the grammer of others. I hear you have a real lock on the job. Wishing you the best for many, many, years.

[linked image]

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Donnie and Ken on Bikes?

December 24 2014, 4:21 PM 

Almost ... but not quite? We do not prohibit anyone from engaging in discussing doctrinal issues civilly.

Just, you may have done it intentionally to get Bill's attention. Let's see if he notices an error [ sad.gif ] in your post. Since your comment is not a "doctrinal issue," let's make Bill's response an exception.


 
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Just
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: Donnie and Ken on Bikes?

December 24 2014, 4:41 PM 



Forgot my smiles. happy.gifhappy.gif

I hope no one takes me too seriously.

happy.gifhappy.gif

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.205.163

Re: Donnie and Ken on Bikes?

December 25 2014, 12:31 PM 

All the best to you, too, Just(ice). happy.gif I must have hit a huge nerve somewhere with Donnie, because he or Ken or both deleted my recent posts and even my recent "New Year's Resolution" thread, where I vowed not to read this tainted board anymore in 2015 and beyond. They'll probably delete this post as well because, from what you say, I gather that they've banned me from this site? After all, I pushed all the buttons and bucked Donnie's and Ken's personal "theology," much of which of late deviates from the COC/Biblical truth. That's OK. It's typical for Donnie and Ken to retaliate like that when they can't convince people to accept their recently radical views. We just have to forgive them, for they lately know not what they do.

About the grammatical "errer": I'm sure "grammer" was intentional for kicks.

Again, Merry Christmas to everyone here. I do hope that Santa left some well-deserved sticks, coal, and ashes for those two old tricksters and elfin misfits, Donnie and Ken.

happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Donnie and Ken on Bikes?

December 26 2014, 12:12 AM 

Bill,

You're fine when you engage in a doctrinal discussion civilly -- call it "your truth" versus "my truth" or "your argument" versus "my argument." But when you resort to something else, such as your comments above (where there is NOTHING conducive to learning), and repeatedly do so (as has been the case in your latest posts), it may be time for you to seek professional help wherever you can find it.

There is no Donnie's nerve, huge or small, for you to hit.

Leave Ken Sublett out of your constant angry and furious tirade of criticism and denunciation of this site. For your special information, Bill, Ken gave up approving any of your posts a long time ago. He has not even directly communicated with you! Ken presents ... presents ... presents ... informs ... informs ... informs. If he hits a nerve and one takes it personally, then, it is that person's problem -- not Ken's. In this case, it is YOUR problem.

Poor thing: your recent "New Year's Resolution." That should not have been published in the first place. There was nothing to learn from it, actually. But I wanted readers to be aware of your b-a-a-a-d attitude.

The above post is being approved -- just for the record. Thank CM. CM says, "welcome."

Please do not bother to respond to this post as it will not be published, unless you return to a civil discussion of doctrinal issues ... and only doctrinal issues.

Donnie

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.197.222.189

Re: May Christians Observe Holidays? (Wayne Jackson)

December 20 2014, 2:10 PM 

Jesus said I AM and not I WAS

Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself and spreading out the earth all alone" (Isa. 44:24).

God was ALONE? Nope says theology 101a God had a son and a spirit god who breathed on the waters. So, The Spirit OF Christ (which always existed) just flat lied in the numerous passages to refute "the lying pen of the scribes."

"I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides Me, there is no God" (Isa. 45:5).

"I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give my glory to another" (lsa. 42:8).


Jesus was begotten IN THE WOMB and therefore ginomai = to come to be, begin to exist

I AM in Greek:

eimi, In Prose eimi serves as FUTURE. to erkhomai, I shall go, shall come. to come or go come or go, the special senses being given by the context,

erkhomai loci, come to, arrive at, which comes or passes to a person by bequest, conveyance, arrived at that time of life,


Everything existed in the mind of God but it did not begin to be until it's own time.

The trinity treats the PHYSICAL JESUS as a member of the "god family." However, the statement is always "father, spirit and son" none of which are NAMES. The Son of God is defined by John and historic trinitarians as the ARTICULATED VOICE of God.

How he or we might have a spiritual existence is unknown but Jesus began to be when Jesus was born of the SPERM of Abraham protected from all of the Civil-Military-Clergy vowed to murder the prophets who were inspired or breathed upon by the Spirit OF Christ or meaning MESSIAH.

Jesus said that all of the power of God's planned purpose was vested in him.

WORD is never a "people." Word or Logos is God's PLAN or rational method:

In the beginning was the PLAN and the PLAN was God since He is wholly (holy) Spirit

Polytheists who deny the value of the work of the MAN Jesus Christ have the usual spiritual dislexia and read:

In the beginning was the Jesus, and the Jesus was with God

This is part of the predestined PLAN of blasphemers who confess that the Spirit or Mind of God was TOO DUMB to just say that:

"The godhead is God, Jesus and Holy Spirit mother."

The GOD FAMILY did not dwell inside of Jesus: Theotes means "the divine nature".





    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 99.197.222.189 on Dec 20, 2014 2:12 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.197.222.189

Re: May Christians Observe Holidays? (Wayne Jackson)

December 20 2014, 7:55 PM 

Before the KJV especially the Geneva Bible understood that when God speaks a WORD it is an IT and not a HIM.

Ex. 18:6 Geneva And he SAID to Moses, I thy father in law Iethro am come to thee, and thy wife and her two sonnes with her.

Ex. 18:6 He sent word (dabar, logos) to Moses, "', your father-in-law Jethro, am coming to you and your wife."

John 1:1 In the beginning was THAT Word, and THAT Word was with God, and THAT Word was God.
John 1:2 This same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by IT, and without IT was made nothing that was made.
John 1:4 In IT was life, and that life was the light of men.
John 1:5 And that LIGHT shineth in the darkenesse, and the darkenesse comprehended IT not


And Jesus said:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus said that the Father breathed (spirit) without metron (meter?) and He SPAKE only what He heard. The Israelites refused to LISTEN to God without a mediator and rose up to PLAY meaning the musical idolatry of the Egyptian trinity. This was a sin beyond redemption and the Jews were blind and deaf until ANOTHER prophet like moses came.

Deut. 18:18 I will raise up a prophet among their countrymen like you, and I will put MY wordS (dabar, logos) in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A PROPHET shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.


Trinitarians who never read the early history DENY that Jesus the ONE GOD THE FATHER MADE TO BE both Lord and Christ came FULLY IN THE FLESH which they gladly confess to the ANTIchrist charge. They want Mary, like Cherokee Sal to Rubel Shelly, to be a questionable lady and therefore they make Jesus to be half-flesh and half-divine. Yea, living and existing even before God made the promise to Abraham. They are neo-gnostics even lusting to gain knowledge by a course in spiritual formation or lectio-divina having lost connection with the HEAD and therefore having nothing for sale.

The old historic 4th ave (st) church in Franklin just procured their first lady preaching intern. She denounces Scripture as old tradition.


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: May Christians Observe Holidays? (Wayne Jackson)

December 24 2014, 3:56 PM 

It is unfortunate that translations, including the KJV, have been influenced and affected by the man-made Trinity Creed, which was invented a few centuries after the apostolic age.

Because of statements (verses in the Bible) in New Testament Greek that may require a pronoun when there is none (but understood to need one), the translators are more likely to use "he" [or "she" if they had thought of "the Spirit" as feminine] in reference to God's Spirit, thus, "the Spirit of God" is automatically masculine based on their preconceived notion.

Despite that preconceived notion of "the holy Spirit of God" being masculine, there is still CONFUSION in various translations:

Romans 8:16 -- "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God..."

Why not "the Spirit Himself" ... huh?

Remember: there are numerous references to "the Spirit of God" either way -- masculine or non-gender. Translation confusion and INCONSISTENCY?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Correction to: "In the beginning...."

December 24 2014, 3:31 PM 

Ken mentioned earlier:

Polytheists who deny the value of the work of the MAN Jesus Christ have the usual spiritual dyslexia and read:"


In the beginning was the Jesus, and the Jesus was with God

Those with spiritual dyslexia love to substitute words regarding an event "in the beginning" (John 1:1)-- PRIOR TO an event that occurred only 2,000 years ago (John 1:14). As a result: that LOGIC is fallacious. And let's expand the fallacious substitution methodology as follows:

Polytheists who deny the value of the work of the MAN Jesus Christ have the usual spiritual dyslexia and read John 1:1 as follows:"


In the beginning was the Word [LOGOS],
. . . and the Word [LOGOS] was with God [THEOS],
. . . and the Word [LOGOS] was God [THEOS]. (John 1:1)
------------------ vs. -------------------
In the beginning was the Jesus,
. . . and the Jesus was with God,
. . . and the Jesus was God [Polytheism 1:1)

And John 1:14 as follows:

And the Word [LOGOS] was made flesh, and dwelt among us.... (John 1:14)
------------------ vs. -------------------
And the Jesus was made flesh, and dwelt among us.... (Polytheism 1:14)

The polytheists and Trinitarians have made the prophecy concerning the coming of the Messiah fulfilled "in the beginning" rather than 2000 years ago.

The truth remains that it was "the Word" (LOGOS) spoken by God -- not God (THEOS) -- that became ("was made") flesh.

There are numerous "God said" (God's Word) references during God's creation "in the beginning." [When time allows I will quote or list those references when God spoke during those creation moments "in the beginning."]

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

And God SAID (Uttered, Spoke):

December 24 2014, 5:45 PM 




Genesis 1:
  • [3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
  • [6] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
  • [9] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
  • [11] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
  • [14] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
  • [20] And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
  • [24] And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
  • [26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
  • [28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
  • [29] And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Genesis 2:
  • [18] And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Genesis 3:
  • [1] Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
  • [13] And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
  • [14] And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Please see Ken's excellent post on the "Restoration Scholars" below regarding Tertullian and Thomas Campbell. It is about God and His (1) MIND, (2) WORD, and (3) POWER.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.197.222.189

Donnie mentioned the Restoration Scholars

December 22 2014, 12:17 PM 

People who boast that they do not read the posted TEXT will be ignored. However, The restoration leaders agreed with the very first people who used the Greek TRIAS. LOGOS as the "son" of God is ALWAYS understood to be the WORDS which the ONE GOD THE FATHER breathed out (spirit) and articulated as the PLAN or PATTERN or regulative principle by which the universe was created and operated. The text says that Jesus SPOKE the PLAN which the ONE GOD THE FATHER breathed into him. Here is Tertullian explained by Thomas Campbell. The trinitarians are EX-church of christers or "progressives" who hear voices and see visions.

Chapter II.-The Gods are Despised When They are Made; But Become Valuable When Bought.

[linked image]
[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 99.197.222.189 on Dec 22, 2014 1:29 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.20.116.93

Tertullian Appendis Anti Heresies

December 24 2014, 9:31 PM 

Tertullian also defines Docetism

http://www.piney.com/Tertullian-Heresy-Appendix.html

What Donnie has said is that trinitarians read John 1 to say that Jesus was GOD and that He created the COSMOS instead of His kingdom. Then we have Paul lying:

Rom. 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Which is nonsense if Jesus is the GOD Who is always said to have created all things BY HIMSELF.

Therefore, Paul is a liar and OR trinitarians who deny just the father-Son "actors" defined by John are ANTICHRISTS.

A lipscomb teacher says that WE have a trinity because ALL pagans had a trinity (or more.)

ALL pagans have triads of lords and gods but Scripture always speaks ANTITHESIS.

1Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, OF whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Reading 101a the ONE God is the FATHER. Jesus is a SON.

The Son is not the Father; the Son is Lord and Not the ONE GOD THE FATHER. Jesus is the IMAGE and AUDIBLE manifestation of God. If Jesus is an IMAGE, He is not God. Moses said that He would be ANOTHER PROPHET like him. Jesus is Prophet, Priest, King over HIS kingdom which is the "world" which He creted.

Jesus whom God MADE TO BE both Lord and Christ is not GOD nor a HALF-GOD. To deny his flesh or human nature is the meaning of ANTICHRIST.

Making Jesus a "god person" or semi-god person REPUDIATES His great work as an example: He is ELDER BROTHER. He was pronounced a SON only after He obeyed the prophecy-commanded baptism.

Arius among other thing says what neo-trinitarians say: that Jesus existed as a SECOND god.

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.20.116.93

Tertullian Chapter 8

December 25 2014, 10:26 PM 

Tertullian Praxeas Trinity.

Tertullian says that GOD created the "father" view. Alexander Campbell said that with respect to display of God's nature, He did not become the father until He made Jesus His Son. In ALL of the historic literature FATHER is the "thought" who breathes (spirit) and emits words as His son: all of this is to prevent us from being polytheists.

CHAPTER 8 -- THOUGH THE SON OR WORD OF GOD EMANATES FROM THE FATHER, HE IS NOT, LIKE THE EMANATIONS OF VALENTINUS, SEPARABLE FROM THE FATHER. NOR IS THE HOLY GHOST SEPARABLE FROM EITHER. ILLUSTRATIONS FROM NATURE.

[linked image]


 
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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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