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DCA
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107.142.253.246

Re: Tertullian Chapter 8

December 26 2014, 10:51 AM 

Donnie,
It is NOT out of sequence. Verse 14 states clearly that the Word, that was in the beginning, became flesh (Jesus), later.

Verse 14 states clearly that the Word, which was and is Jesus, was/is God.

No, it will never be out of sequence..and God made sure of that.

Explain these verses.

John 8
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”


One other question.....verse 14 states the Word (Logos) became flesh. Verse one reverts to verse 14 when it clearly explains that the Word, that became flesh, was God. If the Word, that became flesh in verse 14 wasn't Jesus, then who was it?

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Tertullian Chapter 8

December 27 2014, 1:06 AM 

Dave,

John 1:1,14 is NOT out of sequence. (John 1:14-John 1:1 as you explained is out of sequence. happy.gif ) The Word (LOGOS) was in the beginning with God (THEOS). Then, the Word (LOGOS), not THEOS, was made flesh.

This is really not difficult to understand: That it was the Word [uttered or spoken] in the beginning with God (a Spirit) that became flesh: Jesus, the Son of God.

Simply put: God did not become the Son of God.

Simply put: It was the LOGOS (the Word) that was made (became) flesh, Jesus, the Son of God.

The coming of the Messiah had been prophesied. That prophecy was fulfilled when Jesus was born 2000 years ago.

God the Father did not become the Son of God. In fact, the Son of God is not God, although He possesses God's attributes because He said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Jesus was the recipient of "all power." And Who gave him "all power"? Certainly, Jesus did not give "all power" to himself.

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Before Abraham Was 'I AM'

December 27 2014, 2:06 AM 

In regard to your question concerning "before Abraham," here's what the Scripture says:

A little background on "I AM": Just as YAHWEH or JEHOVAH is God's name, "I AM" is also ascribed to God as His name. Exodus 3:14 states: "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me [Moses] unto you."

The narrative in John 8:49-59 should not be taken out of context. There are these characters in that passage -- God (my Father) mentioned 3 times, the Jews, Abraham (your father), Jesus.

Reading John 8:58 [in the N.T.] ordinarily as: "Before Abraham was, I am" doesn't make sense. It is grammatically incorrect to use both "was" and "am" in the same sense. The reference in Exodus 3:14 to "I AM" as a name ascribed to God makes sense. "'I AM' [as a name] has sent Moses unto you" makes sense. The N.T. "I am" should be expressed as "I AM" -- a name ascribed to God the Father. Thus: "Before Abraham was I AM" ... still in reference to God.

The characters still remain the same -- God (my Father)/I AM, Jesus the Son of God, the Jews, and Abraham.

All this is validated in John 14:9 -- "... he that hath seen me [Jesus, the Son of God] hath seen [God] the Father."


 
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Donnie Cruz
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23.127.32.146

Then who was it?

December 27 2014, 2:25 AM 

Dave,

This is in regard to your last question: "If the Word, that became flesh in verse 14 wasn't Jesus, then who was it?

Answer: The Word [God-spoken] in the beginning did not become flesh until 2000 years ago. Simply: "the Word" in the beginning became Jesus, the Son of God, only 2000 years ago.

So, who was it before the birth of Jesus? ANSWER: It was the LOGOS (the Word).

When "A" became "B" ... "B" was not "B" beforehand.

 
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DCA
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107.142.253.246

Re: Then who was it?

December 27 2014, 10:03 AM 

Donnie said "Answer: The Word [God-spoken] in the beginning did not become flesh until 2000 years ago. Simply: "the Word" in the beginning became Jesus, the Son of God, only 2000 years ago."


You are getting there, just keep deducing. Just not your typical deduction. Remember, we are talking about God.
The only....ONLY explanation then, is if the Word became Jesus 2000 years ago, as you stated, then the conclusion can ONLY be that Jesus is God.
John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

That Word, that became flesh, 2000 years ago, as you stated (and clearly stated in verse 14), was with God in the beginning and WAS God.

Therefore...if Jesus WAS God, then no other conclusion can be made. Jesus IS God.

God doesn't need a chronological description, Donnie, because He is Who He IS and can turn a time frame around. You are trying to describe God in human terms (chronological data and dating). It can't be done. You are also trying to describe Jesus, the Word, in the Beginning, without form. Just because Jesus, the Word, was without name before He was born, Jesus was still Jesus/God. It isn't/wasn't your typical birth. Example....virgin birth.

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Then who was it?

December 27 2014, 2:33 PM 

Dave,

I'll probably respond to this more later on.

What does "LOGOS" mean to you?

What does "THEOS" mean to you?

If you hadn't studied N.T. Greek before, ask around.

I'll give you a hint. LOGOS is spoken; THEOS is a spirit. Which one do you think became the flesh. We know that a spirit cannot become flesh.

Still true: When "A" became "B" ... "B" was not "B" beforehand.

 
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DCA
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107.142.253.246

Re: Then who was it?

December 27 2014, 5:16 PM 

So now one needs to study N.T. Greek to understand the Word? A proper Catholic answer Donnie. Go find your priest or father, who can explain the Word to you, since you don't know Greek N.T.

No!

Apart from your flesh, what do you have?

 
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Ken Sublett
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184.20.116.93

Re: Then who was it?

December 27 2014, 5:58 PM 

The LOGOS in the PAGAN THESIS was Mercury, Hermes or Kairos. He is a PERSON (people). He delivers messages from the god to man and conducts defunct spirits to Hades.

In the ALWAYS Christian ANTITHESIS there is only one God (Theos) the Father and one Lord (Kurios) the MAN Jesus Christ. God made His image visible and audible by a SINGULAR image and teacher. When Jesus SPEAKS the LOGOS he does not speak a PERSON but He Speaks the LOGOS or Regulative Principle by which God made and rules the World. Jesus Christ (not a god word) as MESSIAH created the New World Order and not the Old World or COSMOS which was a religious order and not the Milky Way. As noted, God is Holy or Wholly Spirit and spirits do not have sons and is just TOO BIG to live INSIDE of people and tell them to sow musical discord. You cannot SEE THE God and live.

God is Light: when Jesus SPEAKS He brings LIGHT or INTELLECT and not the DARKNESS or ignorance of the created globe. He was neither Word or Light until He was born of a virgin, the seed (sperm) of Abraham and not a half-god of the pagans then and now.

Except in PAGANISM like the New Hermeneutic (from Hermes) or the Kairos church as the demon or spirit son of Zeus, WORD or LOGOS is never defined as a PEOPLE in the Bible. AM does not mean WAS:

AM IS Eimi I.ibo, In Prose eimi serves as FUTURE. to erkhomai, I shall go, SHALL come. to come or go,

Erkhomai loci, come to, arrive at, which comes or passes to a person by BEQUEST
, conveyance, arrived at that time of life,


God IS: past, present, future without respect to time. Jesus AM with respect to the FUTURE and the words do not include the PAST other than the fact that all spirits may have existed but not as Gods.

When Jesus returns He will GIVE UP that time-limited visible and audible image of what God wants us to be. If Jesus wants something He can create it: he does not have to lie, cheat and steal other people's property to turn it into a "theater for holy entertainment." The ROLE of Jesus was understood to be MESSIAH to be God's ARM or BRANCH. The Spirit OF Messiah created the future kingdom both inclusively and exclusively. The Man Jesus of Nazareth took on the role of MESSIAH to make the prophecies about Him more certain. Peter and others left us a memory of their "part" of eye and ear witnesses to the SIGNS AND WONDERS which validated Jesus and forbade US from private interpretation or further expounding which would repudiate Christ's role.

[linked image]

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Then who was it?

December 27 2014, 8:43 PM 

Dave,

I studied N.T. Greek. That's why I'm not questioning the definition of LOGOS (the Word) because a word, spoken or written, is NOT A PERSON.

"In the beginning," when God [the Father] created the heavens and the earth, etc., He SPOKE. Please see my previous post titled: "And God SAID (Uttered, Spoke):" where I quoted some 14 verses and emphasized "GOD SAID" at creation. When God SPOKE, along with His power (the SPIRIT OF God 'moved upon the face of the waters'"), His creation occurred.

John 1:1 is parallel to the Genesis 1 account of the creation "in the beginning." The Word OF God was with God "in the beginning" and was NOT a person, NOT a separate person.

The Word (LOGOS) -- not a person -- in the beginning with God became a person (was made flesh) 2000 years ago when Jesus was born -- a prophecy of the coming Messiah fulfilled, who was made both Lord and Christ by God the Father.

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Trinity: 'God the Son' VERSUS Scripture: 'the Son OF God'

December 27 2014, 10:24 PM 

How much time have I spent searching the Holy Scripture for the human creed:

(1) "God the Father" is found in the Scripture; numerous references support it.
(2) "God the Son" is not found in the Scripture.
(3) "God the Holy Spirit" as a separate person apart from God and/or Christ is not found in Scripture.

Here's the truth:

  1. TRINITY CREED: "GOD THE SON"

    • NOT IN THE BIBLE


    ------------------ VERSUS --------------------

  2. SCRIPTURE: "THE SON OF GOD"
    • Matt. 4:3,6; 8:29; 14:33; 26:63; 27:40; Luke 4:3,9; 22:70; John 1:49; 9:35; 11:4; 19:7; Acts 9:20; Gal. 2:20; Eph. 4:13; 4:14; Heb. 6:6; 7:3; 10:29; I John 5:10; Rev. 2:18)

    • ... for he said, I am the Son of God (Matt. 27:43)
    • ... Truly this was the Son of God (Matt. 27:54)
    • The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God (Mark 1:1)
    • Thou art the Son of God (Mark 3:11)
    • Truly this man was the Son of God (Mark 15:39)
    • ... which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:35)
    • Thou art Christ the Son of God (Luke 4:41)
    • What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? (Luke 8:28)
    • And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God (John 1:34)
    • ... in the name of the only begotten Son of God (John 3:18)
    • ... because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:36)
    • ... Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God (John 11:27)
    • ... that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31)
    • ... I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Acts 10:37)
    • ... declared to be the Son of God with power (Rom. 1:4)
    • For the Son of God, Jesus Christ... (II Cor. 1:19)
    • For this purpose the Son of God was manifested (I John 3:8)
    • ... Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God (I John 4:15)
    • ... but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God (I John 5:5)
    • ... hour is coming ... when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God (John 5:25)
    • He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life (I John 5:12)
    • ... believe on the name of the Son of God (I John 5:13)
    • ... we know that the Son of God is come (I John 5:20)


 
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DCA
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107.142.253.246

Re: Trinity: 'God the Son' VERSUS Scripture: 'the Son OF God'

December 28 2014, 1:20 AM 

Donnie said that "The Word (LOGOS) -- not a person -- in the beginning with God became a person (was made flesh) 2000 years ago when Jesus was born -- a prophecy of the coming Messiah fulfilled, who was made both Lord and Christ by God the Father."

You said that the Word became Jesus, 2000 years ago. In verse 1 of John 1, that SAME Word, that became Jesus in the flesh (verse 14), was with God in the beginning, and WAS God.
Therefore, and ONLY conclusion....Jesus WAS/IS God.

God is infinite....Donnie, infinite squelches your chronological theory.
Also, John 1 clearly states that the Word, which you claim to not be a spirit, became Jesus 2000 years ago, which you agree to. Since you clearly state that the Word became Jesus, then verse 1 states that Jesus, unnamed in the beginning, was ALWAYS there, and WAS/IS God.

I also studied N.T. Greek, ACU.
So what???

N.T. Greek will never supersede common sense.

Unfortunately, common sense isn't very common any longer.

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Trinity: 'God the Son' VERSUS Scripture: 'the Son OF God'

December 28 2014, 3:33 AM 

Dave,

I'm very surprised to find out from you that your N.T. Greek had you define LOGOS as a PERSON.

Truth: I Corinthians 8:6 clearly makes this distinction:

(1) There is but one God, the Father, OF WHOM are all things;
---------------- AND [conjunction, Dave] -----------
(2) One Lord Jesus Christ, BY WHOM are all things.

II John 1:3 --

(1) Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father,
---------------- AND [conjunction] ------------------
(2) From the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father....

There are more passages that make that distinction. This has been discussed before regarding each salutation in each of some 20+ epistles where (1) God the Father and (2) and the Father's Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, were mentioned every time.

Truth is that there is only ONE GOD, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What was made flesh was the Word (LOGOS) of God.

So, Dave, when the Word (LOGOS) was made flesh 2000 years ago, and you claim that Jesus on earth was also God, were there two GODS until Jesus' death and resurrection?

Again, there is only one God (not 2, not 3); God the Father is the ONLY ONE GOD I know that the Scripture teaches. It was NOT God the Father who became His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. It was NOT God the Father who sent Himself to become the Messiah. Rather, it was the Word (LOGOS) of God that was made flesh.

"Common sense" says that "A" cannot become "B" if "A" is already "B"; and common sense says that LOGOS [speech, word, utterance] could not become the Messiah in the flesh if he was already the Messiah.

The Messiah was prophesied and the prophecy was part of God's plan in the beginning. There was no Messiah until the prophecy was fulfilled 2000 years ago. By the way, there was Moses in the old covenant era; we have Christ in the new dispensation.

Did you carefully read several passages that I referenced above concerning Jesus Christ as the Son of God? There is no reference to "God the Son" in the entire Holy Scripture.

 
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DCA
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107.142.253.246

Re: Trinity: 'God the Son' VERSUS Scripture: 'the Son OF God'

December 28 2014, 3:29 PM 

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word became flesh (Jesus) 2000 years ago. The author here CLEARLY STATES that the Logos, which you like using so much, became Jesus 2000 years ago. I keep stating the obvious over and over to you Donnie to prove that Greek enlightment is NOT needed. Keeping it simple. This may even infuriate Ken Sublett. He believes in his own parable-like language. That Logos, as clearly stated again by the author, was with God in the beginning. This logos, that became our Messiah 2000 years ago, is also clearly stated, by the author, as BEING GOD in verse 1 (....and the Word was God).

John 10
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Donnie, others have claimed that this claim from Jesus doesn't ACTUALLY mean that Jesus is claiming to be God....like more of how a father claims 'he is so much like me that we could be one.'
Wrong Donnie. Jesus meant EXCACTLY what He said.
Verse 30 I and the Father are one.

Not LIKE or similar to one, but ONE!!! "....are one. A definitive statement.

You can try and explain it in YOUR HUMAN terms, but that is where you will always fail. If you believe that you can completely explain it, then you are indeed insane. I take God at His very Word. He says it, then I don't need time and a chronological order to impress me that it can't be done. If the Word says it, then I take Him at His Word.

 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
184.20.116.93

Re: Trinity: 'God the Son' VERSUS Scripture: 'the Son OF God'

December 28 2014, 4:23 PM 

Ken doesn't "furiate" He just agitates and not a single ACU will let you post REAL Scripture on their blog. The context is not part of the historic priest-preacher needs as Erasmus lamented. By definition a SERMON in the modern sense means that WE have been Simonized and have "A" holy spirit person ENHANCING the Word. I think that you can get to the point that it is not possible to read whole thought patterns as affirmed by Paul in 2 Corinthians 3. Now JESUS draws a SHARP distinction between himself and the ONE GOD THE FATHER. In John 17 Jesus wants us to all be ONE by speaking the WORD or Logos which He promised would get you hated. The LOGOS among the Greeks is the REGULATIVE PRINCIPLE invested in semi-gods such as Hermes, Mercury or Kairos or the time promised for the end times.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not:
.....the WORKS that I do in MY FATHER'S NAME
.....they bear WITNESS of me.


If they had not been ignorant of the Prophets being READ in the synagogue ONCE A WEEK they would have recognized the ONENESS between the prophecy and fullfilment.

The father and son are ONE in their testimony which is THE POINT of the discord.

God was the Logos or PLAN or REGULATIVE PRINCIPLE.
The ONE GOD breathed (spirit) without METRON which most often means without METER as the mark of the Scribes and Pharisees in their howling CANTILLATION but never metrical in a tuneful sense.
As the ANTITHESIS to the Pagans Paul commanded that the TEXT (only) be SPOKEN which is the oppposite of ODE, poetry or music. Jesus doesn't pray for the world or ECUMENICAL masses because they are not the LITTLE FLOCK of lost spirits Jesus was sent to seek and save.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
.....neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My FATHER, which gave them ME, is greater than all;
..... and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.


If not ignorant, Jesus would have said I AM God the Almighty.

If you are saying that JESUS IS the FATHER then read on. The CONTEXT proves that Jesus was doing EXACTHLY what the "One God the Father" breathed (spirit) into Him and which He ARTICULATED. Words are w.o.r.d.s or that which one SPEAKS. There was no difference between the Words of the Father and the SPEAKING of His Son. They are one: not the ONE PERSON.

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son,
.....and SHEWED him all things that himself DOETH:
.....and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
John 5:36 But I have WITNESS witness than that of John:
.....for the works which the Father hath given me to finish,
.....the same works that I do, BEAR WITNESS of me, that the Father hath SENT ME

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you,
.....I go away, and come again unto you.
..... If ye loved me, ye would rejoice,
.....because I said, I go unto the Father:
..... for my Father is greater than I.


Jesus received the PROMISE or the COMMISSION or ASSIGNMENT as The Holy Spirit or MIND OF GOD who would guide the Apostles into all truth..

Jesus the POURED OUT what they could see (firey tongs) and hear (BREATH NOT a person.]

The NAME of the Holy Spirit Comforter is "Jesus Christ the Righteous." He lives in the SPIRIT World but he is stil the KING but He will be on the throne only until He comes again. He will return the THRONE to the FATHER. He is the ONLY Teacher and the Great Commission is the CENI.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.20.116.93 on Dec 28, 2014 4:27 PM


 
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DCA
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107.142.253.246

Re: Trinity: 'God the Son' VERSUS Scripture: 'the Son OF God'

December 28 2014, 8:55 PM 

Ken you furiate?
happy.gif
You couldn't possibly....you have to be able to communicate to to able to furiate. Not sure what you mean by ACU not allowing you to post Scripture, BUT...your opinion does not count as Scripture.

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Trinity: 'God the Son' VERSUS Scripture: 'the Son OF God'

December 28 2014, 10:30 PM 

Dave,

You seem to really have difficulty understanding a simple logic that when "A' [the Word of God] became "B" [flesh], "B" [flesh] was not "B" [flesh] to begin with.

I'm glad you quoted John 10:29,30 -- "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

Now, let's add another passage, John 14:28 -- "I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

Since you've been ignoring my specific questions, I'll restart and number each of the following new questions:

1. Was "the Word" (LOGOS) a PERSON/BEING in the beginning?
___________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________

2. Was "the Word" (LOGOS) A SEPARATE PERSON/BEING from God in the beginning?
___________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________

3. What's the difference between: (a) "I and my Father are one" and (b) "I and my Father are one God"?
___________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________

4. Is this a wrong interpretation: that "are one" simply means "are in agreement"?
___________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________

5. How do you reconcile "God in Three Persons" and "my Father is greater than I"?
___________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________



 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

And 'THE SAYING' (the Word, 'LOGOS') of God Became Flesh

December 31 2014, 8:15 PM 

While awaiting the answers to a few of the many questions concerning "THE LOGOS" (above), I would like to share the following research:

The KJV (along with many other translations, but used here as an example) renders the following verses in John 1:

  • =============================================
  • [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
  • [2] The same was in the beginning with God.
  • [3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
  • [4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    |
  • [14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
  • =============================================

The OnlineInterlinear/Greek Index.htm provides the following translation of the same verses:
  • =============================================
  • [1] IN ORIGINAL WAS THE SAYING AND THE SAYING WAS TOWARD THE GOD AND GOD WAS THE SAYING
  • [2] THIS WAS IN ORIGINAL TOWARD THE GOD
  • [3] ALL THRU SAME BECAME AND APART-FROM SAME BECAME NOT-YET ONE WHICH HAS-BECOME
  • [4] IN SAME LIFE WAS AND THE LIFE WAS THE LIGHT OF-THE HUMANS
    |
  • [14] AND THE SAYING FLESH BECAME AND BOOTHS IN US AND WE-GAZE THE ESTEEM OF-HIM ESTEEM AS OF-ONLY-GENERATED BESIDE FATHER FULL OF-GRACE AND TRUTH
  • =============================================
Notice the following observations:
  1. The interlinear translation of the verses from the original NT Greek is uninfluenced by outside sources.
  2. The translation does not draw its conclusion [unlike the Trinity Creed following] of what verse 1 is supposed to mean because of what occurred in verse 14. (The Trinity dogma, on the other hand, states that it was Jesus in verse 1 because "Jesus" became Jesus in v. 14.)
  3. "THE SAYING" is consistently translated and defined as "THE WORD" or "LOGOS" -- not as "THEOS";
  4. The original passages in NT Greek use the expression "THE SAME" to address "THE SAYING" -- which means that...
  5. The pronoun "he" or "him" in both NT Greek and the above translation was never used for the antecedent "LOGOS" or "THE SAYING" or "THE WORD."
  6. The pronoun "him" is not referenced until verse 14 when "THE SAYING" (LOGOS) became flesh.
  7. Either the expression "the Word was God" or "God was the Word" does not change the reference in verse 14 to what became flesh.
  8. It was THE "LOGOS" OR "SAYING" or "WORD" of GOD that became flesh in verse 14.


 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
184.20.116.93

Isaiah 41 Part A

December 31 2014, 11:10 PM 

The pattern of the synagogue defined by Paul was to READ the Scriptures. This was for the spiritual race and was during the Monarchy and forever more the Prophets breathed on by the Spirit OF Christ. The message is ALWAYS that the ONE GOD THE FATHER sends His messenger as the Messiah. He uses terms such as hand, shoulder, or the seven spirits (Isaiah 11) as carriers of His Words: that's spelled w.o.r.d. as in what God SPEAKS in divers ways.

A Church of Christ is defined inclusively and exclusively in the prophets not required to preach. God gives signs or ways of escape by showing what Messiah WILL NEVER DO. He doesn't need to shout in the marketplaces or theaters for the LITTLE FLOCK of lost spirits to hear.

[linked image]

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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