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Just Layman
(no login)
108.230.196.85

God Did Not Say Not To

April 12 2015, 9:08 AM 


Some have arrived at this junction..."God did not say not to." Wow! happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: God Did Not Say Not To

April 12 2015, 12:53 PM 

LABEL ON A BOX

"This box contains an atomic shell! Remove carefully"!

Little Jimmy Jump up opines: "It does not say NOT to hit the little pointy thing with a hammer."

Little Jimmy-bless his heart--is absolutely right. There is no LAW about what to do AFTER we have removed the shell. So, he fleeces all of the widows in the company to procure him a Minister of Hammering.

A disciple knows that God is God and he is not: a disciple cannot possibly become a degreed Sower of Discord with a minor in "How to do a legalistic end run around the word.

The Word is the LOGOS: the Logos is God's Regulative or Governing principle revealed by Jesus and validated by his death and resurrection.

A Regulative principle can NEVER be a PEOPLE.

The LOGOS--by absolute definition validated by contemporaneous definitions--HATH SAID 'THOU SHALT NOT' amend the Word by Rhetoric (sermonizing, jokes, introductions, personal experiences-real or blown up-using poetry, songs, playing instruments, dancing (music) or acting which is the jumpety CAPPELLA goat parable.

ANYTHING you can invent as ACTS OF WORSHIP (Legalism-self-will) is OUTLAWED by the meaning of the LOGOS. Load this page:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=lo%2Fgos&la=greek&can=lo%2Fgos0#lexicon

Click LSJ to get the fuller list of USES.

The do a search for "opp" which means OPPOSITE anything anyone does today beyond doing the act of READING by reading verse 3d which the preacher will ignore.

"Opp" means that whatever is listed is OPPOSITE and CONTRADICTS the meaning of the LOGOS or WORD. CHRIST in Isaiah 8 says that if you don't SPEAK the written text THERE IS NO LIGHT IN YOU. Of course, being DIMMED DOWN won't hinder you from getting to be Senior Pastor or the Authoritative Teacher as my old discorder claims. That with the Muses lets you "stand in the holy place claiming to be God." THAT will get you a MEGA salary.




    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.180.96 on Apr 12, 2015 1:01 PM


 
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Just Layman
(no login)
108.230.196.85

God Didn't Say Not To

April 12 2015, 2:36 PM 


Ken, clearly the COC disagrees with you on singing. Do you know of a local Church of Christ that does not sing?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: God Didn't Say Not To

April 12 2015, 5:54 PM 

I rarely take a census to determine what the Scriptures and recorded history means.

I might change my mind if you could find a passage which says:

"Sing that which is written for our enjoyment."

Or "everyone sing to everyone else with Twila Paris:
Singing and singing with harmony out loud."

That should be EASY.

I hope you celebrated Orthodox Easter today: did you know that blood has been shed over which day to engage in SUN worship?



 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.63.156

Re: God Didn't Say Not To

April 12 2015, 6:42 PM 

I don't know of any speak-only churches of Christ. Ken could become famous by starting the first church of Christ that prohibited any kind of singing. happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: God Didn't Say Not To

April 12 2015, 7:51 PM 

I would suggest that you look at all of the churches or synagogues in the Bible. That would include Paul and Timothy as they held assemblies. That would be a nice place for finding A Church of Christ engaging in any kind of histrionics.

The singing in church history was NOT a public "worship service" but the daily devotions of the monks and monkees. No church prior to the Reformation engaged in congregational singing: they understood the command to speak that which was written for our learning had no meter and you could not sing tunefully if your life depended on it: it was probably not possible. After Calvin only the PSALMS were set to a simple melody and sung in unison. Psalmody-churches still exist and would probably be the background of the Campbells.

Hastings. Encyclopedia.Religion.Ethics.html
There was also an early vigil from cockcrow to dawn kept by 'all monks and virgins,' and by some lay-folk also. Of course the devotions at the central holy place of Christendom were more generally attended than elsewhere and more elaborate in form, including already four daily services at least. But the account gives us clear insight into the way in which worship became more specialized and developed. And by a good deal of evidence from the last quarter of the century we can ' fix the period A.D. 350-375 as that of the introduction of daily public evening and morning prayers into the Eastern Church, followed a few years later by that of Milan.'1

As regards forms of devotion dating from the 4th cent., neither the morning hymn (Gloria in exceltis) nor the evening one,1 tor instance, seems then to belong to public service. The former appears in varied contexts (e.g., after the Biblical Canticles or 'Odes' in the Codex Alex.); and in the Eastern Church it is part of the Daily Office (Lands), while in the Western it is in the Mass— whither most prized forms tended to gravitate. Once, however, both perhaps were part of the worship of an ascetic community. The evening

hymn, like another vesper hymn, ' Hail, gladdening light', referred to by St. Basil1 as already ancient, may originally have been a thanksgiving 'at the lighting of the lamps' either in the home or at an Agape,' passing later into use among ascetics, like the table-prayers of the Didache into de Virg. xii f. In this last the Gloria is part of the virgin's praise ' towards dawn.'* Closely connected in feeling and ideas with the Gloria, and perhaps with its fellow vesper hymn (Te deeet laiu), is the best known Latin hymn, the Te Deum, now traced to Nicetas of Remesiana, who as living on the road between the East and West would naturally feel the influence of Greek models. Nicetas in his works ' On Vigils' and ' On the good of Psalmody' illustrates further the similarity of ideals of private and corporate devotional hours in East and West c. A.d. 400 ;4 and he was one of the pioneers of the newer feeling which allowed hymns other than those in Scripture, the Psalter above all, to form part of corporate Christian worship, though the prejudice against this died hard.' The authority of St. Ambrose, who himself wrote hymns for public worship, had no doubt great influence. The musical difficulty to their more general use was a real one. It was in monastic circles, then, that hymns proper took real root, and from their daily offices passed in the later Middle Ages into the Breviary of the ordinary clergy.


It is a fact that imposing singing as an ACT in the fourth century split the east church from the west: the easters held easter today and blood was spilt over the date of SUN worship. This historical record proves that SINGING as an act did not exist: even then it was more chanting a single note at a time: that mark of sanity.

If you lived before the Jubilee and PRAISE SINGING you probably couldn't find a church of Christ involved attempts to AROUSE the emotions always identified as sexual and music-drug induced.

If I intended to be fed and housed I would be forced to GO and SOW and not start "churches" as in institutions of lower learning.


 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.63.156

Re: God Didn't Say Not To

April 12 2015, 8:26 PM 

Forgive me if I wasn't clear enough. I don't know of any speak-only churches of Christ EXTANT TODAY. Therefore, Ken would be famous if he started the first church of Christ IN THE 21ST CENTURY that prohibited the singing of hymns. happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: God Didn't Say Not To

April 12 2015, 9:50 PM 

I am concerned with Christ: He ordained HIS School of the Word in the FIRST CENTURY. I personally do not know what all churches of Christ do.

I seem to be the only one who has discovered that SPEAK is the opposite of SING or people just don't want to give up their career path.

The Church of Christ (the Rock) was ordained in the wilderness after the nation was split because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai on the Rest day. The command excluded "vocal or instrumental rejoicing or rhetoric."

Hymnody developed systematically, however, only after the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity (AD 313); and it flourished earliest in Syria, where the practice was possibly taken over from the singing by Gnostics and Manichaeans of hymns imitating the psalms. The Byzantine Church adopted the practice; in its liturgy, hymns maintain a much more prominent place than in the Latin liturgy; and Byzantine hymnody developed complex types such as the kanon and kontakion (qq.v.; see also Byzantine chant). Saint Ephraem--a 4th-century Mesopotamian deacon, poet, and hymnist--has been called the "father of Christian hymnody." Britannica Online

In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers composed a book of hymn texts in about 360. Not much later St. Ambrose of Milan instituted the congregational singing of psalms and hymns, partly as a counter to the hymns of the Arians, who were in doctrinal conflict with orthodox Christianity [WORSHIP WARS] In poetic form (iambic octosyllables in four-line stanzas), these early hymns--apparently sung to simple, possibly folk melodies--derive from Christian Latin poetry of the period. By the late Middle Ages trained choirs had supplanted the congregation in the singing of hymns. Although new, often more ornate melodies were composed and many earlier melodies were elaborated, one syllable of text per note was usual. Some polyphonic hymn settings were used, usually in alternation with plainchants, and were particularly important in organ music.

Congregational singing in the liturgy was re-established only during the Reformation, by the Lutheran Church in Germany.

The early chorale (q.v.), or German hymn melody,
was unharmonized and sung unaccompanied,
although harmonized versions,
used by varying combinations of choir, organ, and congregation,
appeared later.

Swiss, and later, French, English, and Scottish Calvinism promoted the singing of metrical translations of the psalter (see psalmody), austerely set for unaccompanied unison singing. English and Scottish Protestantism admitted only the singing of psalms. English metrical psalms were set to tunes adapted from the French and Genevan psalters. These were fairly complex melodies written on French metres. The English psalter used only a few metres, and the custom of singing each psalm to its “proper” tune was soon replaced by the use of a few common tunes. The common metre 8, 6, 8, 6 (the numbers give the number of syllables in each line), a form of English ballad metre, remains the archetypal English hymn metre.


You can do what you are gonna do but you cannot focus on MUSIC and be a New Testament Christian or Church.

I know that once you have been sorcerized with music it is hard to catch on but:

The command is to SPEAK that which is written for our learning. Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs are in the BOOK OF PSALMS.
Nothing written for our learning is in lyric poetry.
Therefore, neither then nor now can you be a follower of Christ and sing YOUR OWN STUFF and set it to MELODY.

 
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Just Layman
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Praise God

April 13 2015, 12:09 PM 


Thanks Ken! I now have a better understanding on what you are about. No hard feelings here. Wishing you the best!

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Praise God

April 13 2015, 2:01 PM 

Ken gets no opinion: I have posted the absolute Biblical and historical proof that there is no musical connection in Scripture and early church history: even then there was nothing similar to modern "four voices, singing four different sets of words, at four different times to four different tunes." It is not a question of right or wrong but what is the Biblical and historical method. When the camel gets it's foot into the tent you wind up with the men getting disfranchised as song leaders when the Senior Pastor hires a "Musical Worship Minister." This and not the conservative Bible-based teaching is what has caused so many people to flee from churches of Christ as Catholics flee from the MOTHER church.

I assume that "where you come from" dismisses my opinions which are universally accepted by the historical believer: the Disciples when imposing instruments made no Biblical or Historical defense for sowing massive discord. Daniel Sommer the whipping boy of the instrumentalists because he refused to let the New Brick Building be confiscated as soon as it was paid for notes:

Those disciples of Christ that began about sixty, years ago to advocate the use of instrumental music in worship professed to regard its use as expedient, or proper under the circumstances. In course of time their plea, of expediency was exposed, for the evidence was offered that anything had to be lawful, or permitted by law, before it could be expedient. See 1 Corinthians 6:12. Besides, evidence was offered that a divisive something, as instrumental music had proved to be, could not be expedient because it was contrary to the divine teaching concerning the unity or oneness of believers in Christ


1Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1Corinthians 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.


Then one George P. Slade, about the year 1876, made an effort to find divine authority for such music in worship. A few years ago one J. B Briney made another effort to furnish authority for such music.


http://www.piney.com/Otey.Briney.Debate.on.Instrumental.Music.html

About two years ago one O. E. Payne made another effort in the same direction, and the reader's attention is. now invited to my exposure of Payne's effort, as I wrote that exposure in three chapters for the Apostolic Review

http://www.piney.com/O.E.Payne.North.American.Christian.Convention.html

So, is it true or false that "God commanded instrumental praise AS worship today?" Even when sowing of discord is taken into account.

Does it make any difference what the Bible and recorded history defines music as telling God "we will not listen to YOUR Word"?

Do you see any significance in attacking those who quote Scripture, recorded history and the fatal results of sowing discord?

Do you plan to continue to teach that David's urge to worship in the firmament is a pattern for the modern praise leader?




 
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Just Layman
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: Praise God

April 14 2015, 2:41 PM 



I think as I grow older the psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs speak to me much more. Anyone else experience this?

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.203.48

Re: Praise God

April 14 2015, 6:09 PM 

They speak to you, but do you also speak them back, or sing them, or both? happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Praise God

April 14 2015, 6:14 PM 

They are supposed to speak to you: they were Teaching Psalms. The view is that the book of Psalms is a poetic (never metrical) version to cover the 5 periods of the prose record. The Direct command is to use:

Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs: all in the BOOK of Pslms.
Or by direct command "that which is written for our learning."

Maybe there is ONE person out there who has NOT said GOD HATH NOT SAID what to teach??

All of those who use psalms to justify instruments never agree that psalms are to teach and admonish. They are the grandest literature ever written and probably include some of the best material beyond the Hebrew writers. The Ugaritic influence at google.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ugaritic+psalms

The Bible records evidence from many nations and they are given for out education and not to supply dogma to feed theologians and "worship centers" quite similar to pagan "worship centers."

Melody: Zamar or Melos means to "dismember the text or cut it into pieces. It is possible to dismember (make melody) of all of the Bible text and sing it with one or two notes. IF there was ANYONE in the Restoration movement who obeyed the DIRECT COMMAND everyone could learn or memorize many Psalms and "speak to themselves" all week. At about 85 1/2 I can certify that I cannot sing a single verse of Fanny Crosby.

Psa. 119:1 ALEPH.

| Bless ed' are the | un de fil' ed | in the way,
| who walk' in the law" | of the LORD.

If you say that Palms demand instruments and NEVER sing a single psalm out of the BOOK of Psalms then you understand why the ECUMENICALS who use music to attract the butterflies are unable to speak the Word, Logos or REGULATIVE PRINCIPLE.



 
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Just Layman
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: Praise God

April 14 2015, 6:25 PM 



Yes they were singing to me. Have you ever had a song speak to you. I also sing to them. We admonish one another.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.203.48

Re: Praise God

April 14 2015, 6:57 PM 

By a song "speaking" to me, I gather it means conveying a lesson or principle or something very spiritually meaningful. All psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs should do that. I believe that's what Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 instruct us to do. We can metaphorically "speak" to one another and edify one another as well as praise God by singing the hymns. I certainly don't believe that those two passages prohibit us from singing, as some fanatics would have us believe. We certainly should not go out on a narrow-minded limb and say, "No, no, the verses say SPEAK, so we cannot, we must not sing a note, lest we sin."

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

ZOE Loking to the Hills: Zoe is Evah who is Venom or Venus.

May 8 2015, 3:18 PM 

The ZOE (Evah, Lucifer, Venus) Group were an early INFILTRATE AND DIVERTER: My old investment in Seattle came to Nashville to learn how to TRANSITION the historic congregation into the INSTRUMENTAL SECTARIANS GROUP.

http://www.piney.com/Zoe-Look-To-The-Hills.html

Most if not all falls from grace involve the effeminate and music: they are prototypical and are repeated over and over: Revelation 17 speaks of the END TIME resurrection of Apollon as the leader of the LOCUSTS or Muses: they are CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Just as Christ defines in Isaiah 30.

The Shelly-Promoted conference was called LOOK TO THE HILLS. False teachers are always USED and have little control over their PRE destiny as the same sorcerers in Revelation 18 who HAD deceived the whole world once.

Anyone is free to find a recorded EXCEPTION TO THE RULE.

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

ZOE Loking to the Hills: Zoe is Evah who is Venom or Venus.

May 8 2015, 3:20 PM 

The ZOE (Evah, Lucifer, Venus) Group were an early INFILTRATE AND DIVERTER: My old investment in Seattle came to Nashville to learn how to TRANSITION the historic congregation into the INSTRUMENTAL SECTARIANS GROUP.

http://www.piney.com/Zoe-Look-To-The-Hills.html

Most if not all falls from grace involve the effeminate and music: they are prototypical and are repeated over and over: Revelation 17 speaks of the END TIME resurrection of Apollon as the leader of the LOCUSTS or Muses: they areCAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Just as Christ defines in Isaiah 30.

The Shelly-Promoted conference was called LOOK TO THE HILLS. False teachers are always USED and have little control over their PRE destiny as the same sorcerers in Revelation 18 who HAD deceived the whole world once.

Anyone is free to find a recorded EXCEPTION TO THE RULE.

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

ZOE Loking to the Hills: Zoe is Evah who is Venom or Venus.

May 8 2015, 3:21 PM 

The ZOE (Evah, Lucifer, Venus) Group were an early INFILTRATE AND DIVERTER: My old investment in Seattle came to Nashville to learn how to TRANSITION the historic congregation into the INSTRUMENTAL SECTARIANS GROUP.

http://www.piney.com/Zoe-Look-To-The-Hills.html

Most if not all falls from grace involve the effeminate and music: they are prototypical and are repeated over and over: Revelation 17 speaks of the END TIME resurrection of Apollon as the leader of the LOCUSTS or Muses: they are CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Just as Christ defines in Isaiah 30.

The Shelly-Promoted conference was called LOOK TO THE HILLS. False teachers are always USED and have little control over their PRE destiny as the same sorcerers in Revelation 18 who HAD deceived the whole world once.

Anyone is free to find a recorded EXCEPTION TO THE RULE.

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

April 14 2015, 9:55 PM 

By definition a Christian IS NARROW MINDED. Also logical since you cannot SING and SPEAK at the same time: God uses words with an INCLUSIVE and EXCLUSIVE meaning.

Eph. 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

You must understand the WORD or WILL of the Lord: none of it can be sung.

Eph. 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; [The WORD John 6:63]
Eph. 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
singing and making melody IN your HEART to the Lord;


singing is SILENT and directed TO THE LORD and not to an audience.

The command is to SPEAK the ODES
-lexis , eōs, h(, (legō B) A. speech, OPPOSITE. ōdē, Pl.Lg.816d; l. ē praxis speech or action, Id.R.396c; ho tropos tēs l. ib.400d; ta lexei dēloumena orders given by word of mouth,

Speak and sing are spelled different and cannot be the same thing or done at the same time. SPEAK is opposite to ODE or sing.

And ODE set to music is:
Mouso-ō , A. furnish with power of song, hosa phusis memousōke,
2. to be set to music, “ta di' ōdēs . . mousōthenta kroumata” D.H.Dem.40, cf. Cat.Cod.Astr.8(3).188; to be filled with melody, “memousōtai ta peri tēn thalattan hup' ōdēs tōn petrōn” Philostr.Her.10.7.


Because the PURPOSE is to teach by speaking the INSPIRED TEXT, no adult would try to sing to his teacher.

Furthermore, melody IN THE HEART is in a PLACE and both ODE and PSALLO are silent: you cannot hear it because both words have destructive meanings.

Paul speaks in ANTITHESIS:

SPEAK that which is written but contrary to those who get fluted down with wine,
BUT, ode and psallo in the heart: Keep It Silent Silly.

[linked image]


 
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DCA
(no login)
107.142.253.246

Re: The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

April 16 2015, 3:08 PM 

Again, and often enough, Layman and Bill, you asked for it and you got it. I stopped reading after Ken mentioned that he didn't have an opinion. Wow!!!

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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