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Just Layman
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

April 16 2015, 4:49 PM 


I believe Ken is sitting on some pretty bizarre beliefs that we may never hear from him. He broke the chain on Church singing and condemned all singing as evil. He was schooled to stop at performance singing. I'm fairly certain he is holding back with something about the virgin birth. Ken, I'm all ears if you decide to let it go. happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Ken just quotes Scripture

April 16 2015, 8:11 PM 

We don't have to write lots of books about "Alma": One begins to be when one conceives: Jesus acknowledged Jesus as His Son after He was baptized:.

Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.


The Spirit OF Christ in Isaiah is defined by God speaking to Mary: I hope that people don't call God a liar: Peter said that Jesus made the prophecies more certain:

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


Shelly etal make Mary a sexually questionable young girl: equated her to Cherokee Sal but Mary.

Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost [Breath] shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the SON OF GOD.


Moses didn't have a father or mother but God breathed life into him:

Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


I have informed the feminists who claim that EVE was supperior and Adam was to CLEAVE to her like everyone cleves to God: but they say that EARTH is the goddess Adam was supposed to obey.

Your task, if you wish to take it, is to find where God BREATHED the breath or inspiration into Eve.

YOUR TURN:

Find a command, example, remote inference or even a hallucination that God said anything like: "Let the Scribes and Levites call an assemble 3 or four times in a week: let them hire Song Leader and sing that which is NOT written with or without instruments."

An egg can be sparked into life: you cannot find a jot or tittle about group singing to THE JEHOVAH as an act of worship.






 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

April 16 2015, 5:22 PM 

The difference between: (1) "speaking" and (2) "singing" [besides in spelling and in meaning] is clearly explained in the passages that Praise Team musicians use to defend their musical performances.

There's also the difference between [who would have thought....?):

(1) the mouth
-------- and -------
(2) the heart

There's also the difference in the audiences:
(1) to yourselves or to one another
-------- and -------
(2) to the Lord

For example (Ephesians 5:19):

(1) SPEAKING to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
--------------------
(2) SINGING and MAKING MELODY in YOUR HEART to the Lord;



 
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Just Layman
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

April 16 2015, 6:00 PM 



Please consider,

Definitions for speaking(Noun) The act of communicating vocally.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

April 16 2015, 7:25 PM 

Just,

I like that definitiion. It agrees with what Colossians 3:16 states:


Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs....

Can you imagine a Bible teacher teaching a lesson on the gospel of salvation in an assembly for 88 minutes by just singing "These are the days of Elijah" (clap-clap, clap-clap-clap) repeatedly [must be a 7/11 praise music] -- instead of SPEAKING THE WORD OF CHRIST?


 
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Just Layman
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

April 16 2015, 6:12 PM 


Donnie, it has been reported over the years that you sing at Church. How do you justify your singing?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

April 16 2015, 7:31 PM 


... will respond later ... need to leave right now

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

April 17 2015, 3:50 AM 

Just,

Thanks for asking me about my "church singing" career. I know that some folks are just dying to confront me and my stance on singing "at church." (I actually avoid using expressions such as "going to church" or "singing at church," etc. I prefer to use "assembly" or "gathering" as an indication that the saints meet: [a] as disciples of Christ and as learners or students in His school, [b] as well as participants in commemorating the Lord's sacrifice and death on the cross.)

In other words, all that (the purpose of the assembly) is opposite of what many folks are now MIS-led to believe that the gathering is "MUSICAL WORSHIP" -- the MAIN focus -- and that the rest of the assembly period is a series of extraneous "worship" activities. So, the man-annointed "Worship Leader" is in control. (For those who have not noticed: "traditional" lasts about an hour; "contemporary worship" lasts about 1 1/2 hours ... and determine why that is.)

Oh, yes, my singing. Because of my strange voice range, I sing bass, although some may say that I sing tenor. happy.gif And that reminds me of this song: "Mama sang bass; Daddy sang tenor" ... or something like that. I must confess that in the past, I was just waiting for those in front of me to turn around and "praise" my singing performance. [Maybe, they should have sung "praise music" to "praise" me. happy.gif ]

When the Praise Team was first introduced at Madison some 14 years ago by the "Worship Leader" Keith Lancaster (father of the current "Worship Leader," Anthony) -- which caused a major division both in the eldership and in the membership -- much has changed in me concerning singing "at church."

I detest the entertainment and performance aspects in musical worship. (Thanks to the elders for getting rid of the 2-male and 2-female performers on stage while the "Worship Leader" led the congregants to "God's holy presence.")

I avoid "spiritual" erotic, non-scriptural, repetitive songs, even by the title: If you miss me ... you are the one for me ... Oh, I was made for this: to know your tender kiss ... my feet were made to dance ... for I was made for you ... I felt your warm embrace ... how we need your (Holy Spirit's) touch again ... let your Spirit come and wash me now....

There's one song, the first line of which is: Ha-la-la-la-la-la-la-le-lu-jah Ha-la-la-la-la-le-lu-jah Ha-la-la-la-la-la-la-le-lu-jah Ha-la-la-la-la-le-lu-jah [I don't think I missed a syllable.]. That sounds like a musical exercise or speaking-in-tongues.

There are quite a few 7-11 musical praise songs; quite a few musical pieces that are too difficult to sing (of course, the Praise Team members have the advantage of rehearsing their musical worship); songs by famous and wealthy "Christian" religious artists; etc.

Just Layman, I'm now very selective when it comes to Scripture-based songs: there are not many contemporary songs that qualify. I now do my singing mostly in private, while I'm driving, or where no one can hear me.

No one here condemns truth-based singing as singing should be "in your heart ... to the Lord." And we need to respect what the Bible says and what history has recorded for our knowledge. There is no example or command for congregational singing in the Bible; that "congregational singing" AS WE KNOW IT TODAY has its own history: certainly not dating back to the 1st century Christian era. In fact, there is no command to sing although Paul and Silas did it on their own volition; and "praise" does not have to be sung. But an individual Christian is certainly entitled to "sing and make melody IN YOUR HEART TO THE LORD." We cannot just clap and sing our way to heaven; otherwise, "Christian" opera singers and the Praise Team performing musicians should be the first ones to go up there.

Musical worship, according to my knowledge of the Bible, was not Christ's and His apostles' main focus ... either in discipling or in edifying.


 
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Just Layman
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

April 17 2015, 5:48 AM 



Donnie, I think your core values have changed. You no longer support the traditional COC congregational singing. The term "Change Agent" could be used to describe your actions.

I'm not here to judge you. I would ask that your fellow COC posters council you. Perhaps you have had a little too much of this.

http://www.piney.com/Everett.Ferguson.Congregational.Singing.in.Early.Church.html

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

April 17 2015, 11:52 AM 

You no longer support the traditional COC congregational singing.

SO! you confess that congregational singing makes you a TRADITIONALIST?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

April 18 2015, 12:01 AM 

I'm just wondering if Just meant this: that when the Praise Team sings for the congregation, it is congregational singing so long as it is "a cappella" ('non-instrumental" by today's definition).

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

What Is the 'Traditional COC Congregational Singing'?

April 17 2015, 11:53 PM 

Just,

As I said, no one here condemns truth-based singing -- even congregationally. Key word is "truth-based." I would qualify truth-based congregational singing as that which is devoid of performance or entertainment or instrumental music.

Certainly not when the Praise Team is involved, each one having his/her own handheld microphone ... and performing music before the congregation. Wouldn't it be chaotic if every one in a 3,000-member congregation had a handheld microphone performing either to God OR to each other? No, not that type of congregational singing.

As I said, I'm very selective when it comes to Scripture-based songs. And that's when I participate in congregational singing. And if that's infrequent by today's norm, I do not worry. (Of course, I would not sing with the congregation: "to know your tender kiss ... I felt your warm embrace" even if the song mentions the name of Jesus. I would not sing: "I worship you, Holy Spirit," either.)

I'm not sure what you meant by "the traditional COC congregational singing." Would you consider the Praise Team-dominated musical performances "traditional COC" just because it is a cappella?

While scripture-based congregational singing is not a right-or-wrong judgment, there's truth in saying that there's no example or command for congregational singing in the Bible. When the disciples had said a hymn prior to going to the mount of Olives, there's no indication that there was congregational singing [oh, and that was prior to the establishment of the NT church]. Paul and Silas sang [maybe a duet?] while "in prison."

It is a simple truth that there's no command or example of congregational singing in the Bible. If there were, I certainly would like to know about it.

I have added that piece of information to my memory bank. That way I won't endlessly search for it anymore.



 
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Just Layman
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Truth-Based Singing

April 18 2015, 9:02 AM 


"Truth-Based Singing" is a new buzz term at this site. It surfaced a few days ago in the data search base. It is not to be confused with congregational singing. Donnie and Ken do not believe in congregational singing. I'm sure Ken or Donnie can explain "Truth-Based Singing" and answer any questions.

 
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Just Layman
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

April 17 2015, 11:15 AM 


Donnie said "(I actually avoid using expressions such as "going to church" or "singing at church," etc. I prefer to use "assembly" or "gathering" as an indication that the saints meet: [a] as disciples of Christ and as learners or students in His school, [b] as well as participants in commemorating the Lord's sacrifice and death on the cross.)"

**************

Perhaps, Donnie is ready to change the SOF?


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

'Singing at Church'

April 18 2015, 12:18 AM 

Just,

I was also trying to refresh anyone's memory -- that we still know that the "church" is the body of Christ. Nothing to worry about -- I truly understand what is meant when someone says "I'm going to church." Or, "I'm singing at church." Sorry, if you felt offended. No, I would not change the SOF to "Assembly of God Church." happy.gif

 
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DCA
(no login)
107.142.253.246

Re: The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

April 18 2015, 4:25 PM 

Donnie said "No one here condemns truth-based singing as singing should be "in your heart ... to the Lord.""

Donnie, if you aren't a politician, you should consider being one....

Are you saying that Ken is wrong and truth-based singing CAN be in your heart, and CAN be with SINGING (Musical notes without instruments) also? Earlier you said that you offered up the contention that you actually SING, and not just speaking the words.

Many posts suggest that you believe Ken is right when he contends that ALL MUSIC SUNG is wrong.

Don't continue to waffle like your president persists on doing.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

April 18 2015, 4:51 PM 

Are you saying that Ken is wrong and truth-based singing CAN be in your heart,

1. SPEAK to yourselves with psalms, hymns, spiritual songs (all in the text)
2. ODE and PSALLO IN (inside of) your heart.

Ken believes what Paul said: no opinions.


 
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DCA
(no login)
107.142.253.246

Re: The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

April 19 2015, 12:37 AM 

"Ken believes what Paul said: no opinions.

Well, now we are finally getting somewhere.....

Paul and Sila sang. No opinions. Ken, by the way, your interpretation is still an opinion. KJV says singing.

If the room is small enough, and even though you have painted yourself into a corner, you still might be able to jump for the door

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.211.127

Re: The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

April 19 2015, 11:51 AM 

Believing that we are to speak hymns rather than sing them, some people also believe that the singing with grace and making melody in the heart to the Lord, as mentioned in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16, is a metaphor, that it's all to be done in the heart. That's one interpretation. Another interpretation is that the singing is literal and the making melody in the heart is the metaphor. The latter interpretation has prevailed in mainstream churches of Christ for many decades.

We've often heard that this or that hymn "speaks to us," which is a metaphor. If some people can interpret Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 as no-vocal-singing metaphors, then we also can interpret "speaking to yourselves in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" as a metaphor. By singing hymns, we metaphorically "speak" to one another, we metaphorically teach and admonish one another and praise God at the same time. Saying that speaking is the only way to teach and admonish one another or that speaking is the only way to praise God is merely people's narrow-minded interpretations of Scripture. Some carry this even further by saying or implying that it is "wrong" or even "evil" to sing hymns. Those people are hopelessly narrow-minded fanatics.

While we strive to keep the "letter of the law," so to speak, let's not become such nitpickers that we entirely miss keeping the very spirit of the law.


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Laded Burdens have been REMOVED along with the Burden Laders

April 17 2015, 12:20 PM 

I do certify that the "praise singing" as opposed to reverent group singing without a hired WORSHIP leader (called Parasites in the Greek) was a Laded Burden both physically (destroys hearing) and emotionally which Jesus outlawed as "creating spiritual anxiety through religious rituals." Witches or Sorcerers do not feed you boiled frog eyes: they boil you the "frogs": The Spirits of FROGS are defined as QUACKS.

Quintus Horatius Flaccus,

Bad men, when they avoid certain vices, fall into their opposite extremes.

The tribes of female flute-players,1 quacks, vagrants, mimics, blackguards;2 all this set is sorrowful and dejected on account of the death of the singer Tigellius; for he was liberal [toward them]. On the other hand, this man, dreading to be called a spendthrift, will not give a poor friend [5] wherewithal to keep off cold and pinching hunger.


1 Ambubaiarum , "Women who played on the flute." It is derived from a Syrian word; for the people of that country usually excelled in this instrument. Pharmacopolae is a general name for all who deal in spices, essence, and perfumes.

circumfora-neus adj. [circum + forum] , around the forum, about the market - place: aes, debts (at the bankers). -- Frequenting markets: pharmacopola.


Pharmacopola, pharmakopôlês, [snake oil?] I. a vender of medicines, [musicians in Rev 18 are Pharmakea or sorcers]
2 Mendici, mimae, balatrones . The priests of Isis [mount Sinai] and Cybele were beggars by profession, and under the vail of religion were often guilty of the most criminal excesses. Mimae were players of the most debauched and dissolute kind; and balatrones, in general, signifies all scoundrels, buffoons, and parasites from sacrificial musicians.


John in Revelation 18 calls them SORCERERS and the MUSIC according to the Spirit OF Christ in Isaiah 30 is of God driving them into HELL or the LAKE OF FIRE.

You don't know a single "seller of learning at retail" who understands the meaning of a LADED BURDEN. Jesus EXCLUDES the wise or sophists (rhetoric, singing, playing) who are the BURDEN LADERS. Anything or anyone who devotes themselves to decorate, enhance or aid God and the Word are marked as ANATHEMA: they cannot be redeemed and must be burned."




    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.180.96 on Apr 17, 2015 12:28 PM


 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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