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Bill
(no login)
74.179.62.16

Re: When Does Obedience Become Legalism?

April 20 2015, 12:41 PM 

It is most unfortunate when someone regularly attends a church assembly primarily for purposes of saying to himself, "Let's see what I can find wrong with this place today."

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: When Does Obedience Become Legalism?

April 20 2015, 7:05 PM 

It's unfortunate when the leaders attend a church only to teach false doctrine and sow discord. Jesus didn't whine when people attended his gatherings to PROVE or REPROVE. It's fortunate that Jesus and the first amendment gave us liberty.

Rom. 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom. 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
2Cor. 8:8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
2Cor. 8:22 And we have sent with them our brother, whom we have oftentimes proved diligent in many things, but now much more diligent, upon the great confidence which I have in you.
2Cor. 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Gal. 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
Eph. 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
1Th. 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
2Tim. 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
1Tim. 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
Heb. 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.


The preacher is the one who preaches the gospel: elders have no authority to hire someone to be their front man. If they were APT with any authority they would TEACH THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT.

The HomeMakers Class openly confessed that they were brought in to spy out the liberty the Madison Church had:

Gal. 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
Gal. 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
Gal. 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Gal. 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.


Donnie has been very successful: too bad that the godly members had to obey Jesus.

Luke 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luke 6:29 And unto him that smiteth [percuto with a baton] thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.


Smiting with the hand or baton may be physical or emotional:

per-cŭtĭo: To strike through and through, to thrust or pierce through (syn.: percello, transfigo). stung, bitten, b. To strike, play a musical instrument (poet.): “lyram,” Ov. Am. 3, 12, 40; Val. Fl. 5, 100.—by a viper,
2. To strike, shock, make an impression upon, affect deeply, move, astound (class.): “percussisti me de oratione prolatā,” “auriculae (voce) percussae


Defining the Thessalian Witch or Hag as THEM meaning of Lectio-Divina:

Voce Vox “inclinata ululantique voce canere,” [David's making self vile HALAL] “tremebunda,” id. ib. 3, 14, 25: “theatrum ita resonans, “siderā excantata voce Thessalā,” incantation, with charms, incantations, sermo.


My old Murfreesboro preacher and elders propose to make "worship a SHOCK AND AWE" performance.

ALL smiting or plucking a musical instrument (or a pseudo musical band) are derived from the SERPENT'S STING (poison arrow) or other hate-filled attacks.

There is no statute of limitations about lying to take away peoples "cloke" but they must give their "coat" also and "get over it or get out."

shame, shame, shame






    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.180.96 on Apr 20, 2015 7:16 PM


 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.62.16

Re: When Does Obedience Become Legalism?

April 20 2015, 8:10 PM 

And when a person realizes that his years-long whining and writing about all the discord sown in the church he regularly attends are not about to effect a full return to the Old Paths, it's time that person shake the dust from his feet and depart that church forever.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: When Does Obedience Become Legalism?

April 20 2015, 8:35 PM 

I have a direct command from the Spirit OF Christ:

CRY aloud
spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins. Isaiah 58: 1

Yet they seek [as a Necromancer] me daily,
and delight to know my ways [Seek like a necromancer],
as (if they were) a nation that did righteousness,
and forsook not the ordinance of their God:
they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God. Isaiah 58: 2

Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Isaiah 58: 3

Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness,
to undo the heavy burdens,
and to let the oppressed go free,
and that ye break every yoke? Isaiah 58: 6

Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy rereward (what you gather). Isaiah 58: 8
Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer;
thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am.
If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke,
the putting forth of the finger,
and speaking vanity; Isaiah 58: 9

And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry,
and satisfy the afflicted soul;
then shall thy light rise in obscurity,
and thy darkness be as the noonday: Isa 58:10

And the Lord shall guide thee continually,
and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones:
and thou shalt be like a watered garden,
and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. Isa 58:11

And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places:
thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations;
and thou shalt be called,
The repairer of the breach,
The restorer of paths to dwell in. Isa 58:12

not doing thine own ways,
nor finding thine own pleasure,
nor speaking thine own words: Isa 58:13


The Little Flock or SECT called the WAY is a pattern or narrow road and few will find the gate: RESTORATION is not the work but STAND IN THE WAY and shout.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
Jer. 6:17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.
Jer. 6:21 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will lay stumblingblocks before this people, and the fathers and the sons together shall fall upon them; the neighbour and his friend shall perish.


Of course they won't change: rhetoric, singing, playing instruments and acting are the MARKS that the LAMBS have been removed (Revelation 18) and people walk in darkness because they are Purpose Driven.

Screaming out loud will change a very tiny few [or none] but that is not the purpose of the GOING and delivering the Word which will be obeyed by the LITTLE FLOCK because God HIDES from the wise or sophists: speakers, singers or instrument players violating ALL of the READ or SPEAK as the only way to deliver the Word.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: When Does Obedience Become Legalism?

April 20 2015, 9:57 PM 

QUOTE: And when a person realizes that his years-long whining and writing about all the discord sown in the church he regularly attends are not about to effect a full return to the Old Paths, it's time that person shake the dust from his feet and depart that church forever.

I know you are very talented musically. Use that talent "for the Lord." Play the organ for this church, bro. That may just effect a full departure from the old paths.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.62.16

Re: When Does Obedience Become Legalism?

April 20 2015, 11:32 PM 

If your church is determined to depart from the Old Paths and you're among the minority there hollering, "Foul!" yet your church continually turns a deaf ear to you, then you're just whistlin' "Dixie." You're wasting your time there. Purge that congregation from your mind, move on, and become useful somewhere else...unless you've enjoyed hollering "Foul!" so long in that place that you really just don't know how to move on.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: When Does Obedience Become Legalism?

April 21 2015, 12:10 AM 

Quoting Bill: If your church is determined to depart from the Old Paths and you're among the minority there hollering, "Foul!" yet your church continually turns a deaf ear to you, then you're just whistlin' "Dixie." You're wasting your time there. Purge that congregation from your mind, move on, and become useful somewhere else...unless you've enjoyed hollering "Foul!" so long in that place that you really just don't know how to move on.

======================

Oh, now you think that "church is determined to depart from the Old Paths." Wow!

I'm sure you would've advised Christ and the apostles because they were in the minority and weren't always listened to. Unfortunately for you, they continued teaching and preaching the gospel and discipling.

"Wasting" my time is really none of your business.

Thanks for the advice. I've got one for you: go back to the place where you played your musical instrument and really enjoyed it.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.62.16

Re: When Does Obedience Become Legalism?

April 21 2015, 1:38 AM 

I hope you find closure some day. Frankly, I don't think you'll find it by endlessly criticizing and pointing your finger at Madison. If they won't heed your admonitions, then why continue to attend the assembly there? On the other hand, perhaps criticizing and finger-pointing have become so addictive that you really can't stop.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: When Does Obedience Become Legalism?

April 21 2015, 1:49 AM 

Often I doubt that the church leaders even look at this site. Just let it be a lesson to interested individuals and churches. No, it is not an addiction.

Now, it is time for you to stop your finger-pointing at this site. There are better and more productive ways for you to participate in the discussion.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.62.16

Re: When Does Obedience Become Legalism?

April 21 2015, 8:44 AM 


Quote from Donnie: "Often I doubt that the church leaders even look at this site. Just let it be a lesson to interested individuals and churches. No, [....]"

[. . .]


______________________________

Again, there are "better and more productive ways for you to participate in the discussion."






    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 23.127.32.146 on Apr 22, 2015 1:34 AM


 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.210.216

Re: When Does Obedience Become Legalism?

April 22 2015, 8:53 AM 

Again, people with addictions are most often the LAST to admit that they have addictions. So, Donnie, you need to come clean and admit that you have one whopping addiction for pointing your finger at Madison. That's the only reason why you haunt the place. happy.gifhappy.gif



===============================

That's the same Bill's message I deleted from the post just above it. You certainly have become addicted to this: "pointing your finger at Madison." I've lost track of your vain repetitions -- your own [recent] addiction. Don't abuse your message-publishing privileges because there's a limit to such posts being approved. This is a doctrinal discussion forum, like it or not.



    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 23.127.32.146 on Apr 23, 2015 3:04 AM


 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.210.216

Re: When Does Obedience Become Legalism?

April 22 2015, 10:47 AM 

Again, there are better and more productive ways for you to serve God than sitting on your rump all day pointing your finger at Madison and encouraging Ken's outrageous posts about sexual scenarios, phallic symbols, and the perversions of pagan mythology.

Now let's see, how could you better serve God? Try being a volunteer at some of these:

Soup kitchen, hospital, orphanage, nursing home, homeless shelter, food bank, crisis line, meals on wheels, hospice, and so forth, to name a few.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: When Does Obedience Become Legalism?

April 23 2015, 2:46 AM 

Bill,

I like that list of volunteer tasks. You should have completed the list, instead of naming just a few.

Can you share your calendar with me to show me YOUR schedule of these activities? You must be a very busy man -- when do you have time to cook and deliver meals? I'm busy, too, but I'm willing to learn from you.

(On, no, there's that finger pointing at Madison ... again and again.)

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: When Does Obedience Become Legalism?

April 23 2015, 12:52 PM 

Bill has learned his lessons well.

"IF you are opposed to musical worship that means that you don't care about lost souls, you mug women wearing fur coats, you fire bomb resturants serving beef AND you don't care about the widows and orphans." (Re Rubel Shelly as the author of a long list of RACA words.)

My old church (kirke) in Murfreesboro had a 20/20 vision that said that YOU are selfish if YOU don't let our audience enjoy praise teams or musical instruments. "WE" should be ECUMENICAL but spread hate for the other congregations who don't dip as many people as we gonna dip.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.210.216

Re: When Does Obedience Become Legalism?

April 23 2015, 2:27 PM 

[ . . . ]

==========================

Reminder:

TOPIC: "The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings"


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 23.127.32.146 on Apr 24, 2015 12:22 AM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
23.127.32.146

Re: When Does Obedience Become Legalism?

April 20 2015, 9:46 PM 

QUOTE: It is most unfortunate when someone regularly attends a church assembly primarily for purposes of saying to himself, "Let's see what I can find wrong with this place today."

Instead, why don't you attend that church assembly and perform a solo: "I can only imagine ... what will my heart feel ... will I dance for You, Jesus?"

Oh, I get it: Singing a song like that must be what is meant by the Scripture to "let the word of Christ dwell in you richly."

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: When Does Obedience Become Legalism?

April 20 2015, 10:22 PM 

QUOTE from Just: Donnie, "Legalism" will have you sitting on the couch on Sunday mornings... sulking and complaining how terribly wrong it all is. You are driving a wedge between yourself and the Church you claim to support!

Accept a dose of GRACE and quit "hiding" to sing praises to your Lord and Savior. Time is short! Spend more quality time at Church!


=======================

Just, I'm not sure where you got your definition of "legalism." If I abide by what the Scripture says to "let the word of Christ dwell in you richly," is that "legalism" to you? I simply have no desire to let Bart Millard's words, "will I dance for you, Jesus" ... dwell in me.

To emphasize "letting the word of Christ dwell in you richly," is not driving a wedge between myself and the church of Christ Jesus that I support. I know it. It's the truth from the Scripture.

"Grace" is God's part, and it is not to be abused. Man's part is obedience. Even Christ himself ensampled obedience to God the Father. Please read this: "[8] Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; [9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5, KJV).

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Grace Centered Legalism Part B

April 19 2015, 9:57 PM 

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

April 19 2015, 11:18 PM 

Wayne Jackson says:

In the context under consideration, the Lord further declared that true worship must be in spirit. The meaning seems to be “that the entire heart enters into the act” (Hendriksen 1976, 167). Or, as Lenski notes, the whole soul is thrown into the worship" (1943, 323). The phrase obviously suggests that a sincere disposition must characterize the worshiper’s mind.

There is an Old Testament passage that is remarkably similar to John 4:24—“Now, therefore, fear Jehovah and serve him in sincerity and in truth” (Joshua 24:14).

Note the concurrence between these verses:

Serve Jehovah in sincerity and truth (Joshua 24:14)
Worship God in spirit and truth (John 4:24)


Worship is IN SPIRIT which in John 4 is a PLACE opposite to Jerusalem. Paul's worship IN the Spirit is opposite to worship IN THE FLESH: that excludes the FLESH thrown into the worship. Habakkuk said that when God is in His holy temple (ME) let all the earth (YOU) keep silent before him. We make melody IN (eis) the Heart or sanctified spirit.

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Part C

April 19 2015, 11:25 PM 

I hope that "Just" wore his best Ephod?

[linked image]

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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