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Bill
(no login)
74.179.205.8

Re: Argue, Argue, Argue

April 15 2015, 5:30 PM 

Those participating in these argumentative "discussions" are primarily Donnie and Ken, as expected, each being the other's "yes" man. Others may consist of Just, Dave, and perhaps Scripture. I may pop in here and there. Yeah, I'd say that's a whole stadium full of active participants in this vast forum. happy.gif


========================

Bill, thanks for participating in the "argumentative 'discussions'" recently. Goodbye."


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 23.127.32.146 on Apr 15, 2015 5:50 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Argue, Argue, Argue

April 15 2015, 5:55 PM 

It's OUR microphone, we PAY for it. I am retarded and senile and just don't seem to do anything but repeat, repeat, repeat which is "speaking the same things" and the best I can do is cut and paste from the olden pre-postmodern Bible. I usually start all over on my cutting and pasting and contrary to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. of the New Hermeneutic it always comes out the same. That's probably because I haven't taken that theology course on "How to Move at the Speed of Light." That comes after the preacher course on How a spirit converted me into a sub-atomic particle.

Best I can do is split infinitives. I have also learned how to Multiply Negatives. And, betcha, I still remember prepositions from that one room school with the Confederate Battle flag still flying.

I think Donnie still has one of those outdated Bibles: his quotes look like mine and I LIFTED mine from Jesus.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.180.96 on Apr 15, 2015 6:01 PM


 
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DCA
(no login)
107.142.253.246

Its Not Confusing For Those Who Like To Listen

April 15 2015, 11:04 PM 

Donnie, you said "In your initial post, you commented: "Not just The Might[y] God, but Father also...." There's an equation in that comment: "Father = Son.""

Did I say Father = Son? Or did you say that I said Father = Son?

Thought so.......same ole same ole.



Isaiah 48
16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

In verse 16 we see Him (Jesus) speaking of God, and his Spirit, which sent Jesus.

Who does the Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel claim to be in the next verse? "I am the Lord thy God......"

So Donnie, that doesn't mean that Jesus is claiming to be God, does it? It couldn't mean what it literally says because....like you say....there is only ONE God. So just because the Scriptures plainly state that Jesus IS God, it just doesn't compute, does it?
It probably never will because you have your opinion.

Yes, Jesus always did the will of His Father.
Yes, Jesus was alway submissive to God, His Father.....but Jesus is still God, and that has NOTHING whatsoever to do with what I say. The Word of God makes that claim, so your nor my opinion count in any way.



 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

'Not just The Might[y] God, but Father also....'

April 16 2015, 2:22 PM 

Dave,

The message title (above) is quoted directly from your initial post.

I gathered that your statement was in reference to Jesus (per Isaiah 9:6) as:

(1) The mighty God
----------- and -----------
(2) The everlasting Father [you even added the word "also"]

If you weren't equating the prophesied Jesus with "the everlasting Father," now is the time to clarify yourself. You meant by "but Father also": _______ _______ _______ _______.

I will respond to the rest of your post as soon as time permits.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Argue, Argue, Argue

September 6 2015, 12:40 PM 

Page number testing

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: The Three Entities in the Beginning

April 14 2015, 4:53 PM 

1. God the Father (the ONLY ONE God--countless passages to support this);
2. God's Word or the Word of God (what God SPOKE);
3. God's Spirit [note the preposition "OF" in "the Spirit of God"--possessive].


Donnie has stated the universal ANTITHESIS of the ALWAYS pagan father, spirit (mother, dove, spermator) and infant perverted son. Or, in the beginning daughter.

You MUST understand MYTHOLOGY or you will be using it as the foundation of your musical worship: The Levites as PATTERNS were soothsayers defined as sorcerers. YOUR church is built upon JEWISH FABLES.


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: You Ever Wonder Why???

April 14 2015, 9:27 PM 

Jesus and John made it SIMPLE so that no one can be confused-confused-confused-confused

1. Jesus promised "another" Comforter or Paraclete: in different form.
2. Jesus said in John 14 I will come to you.
3. The same John said that the Paraclete was named Jesus Christ the Righteous.
4. God is Holy or WHOLLY Spirit: this is not His name.
5. As Jesus made the WORD visible and Audible; and Jesus said my WORDS are Spirit; and said as the Comforter "I" will come to you; he would receive the "promise" or ASSIGNMENT in Holy Spirit Form as the Head of His Kingdom.
6. God as Word or Logos does not speak of a "people" but He is the Regulative or Governing principle of the universe. A "rational discourse about God" can never be a people.
7. Jesus is still the Mind or Spirit of God as He protect His Words delivered once for all and supplying ALL that applies to life and Godliness.
8. When people say that "a" spirit endorsed their agenda after 40 days of prayer, don't drink their koolAid.
9. When we say that God is LOGOS or that GOD IS LOVE we neither make the LOGOS (words as spoken) nor LOVE members of a god family.

Here is a PITCHER SHOW so that no one can be confused.

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: You Ever Wonder Why???

April 15 2015, 2:03 PM 

The Spirit OF Christ inspired Isaiah 9. It is bad to say that He was so ignorant that He said:

His NAME SHALL BE CALLED.

Instead of as claimed.

This "son" WILL BE GOD THE ALMIGHTY.

The ONE GOD THE FATHER made Jesus of Nazareth TO BE both lord and Christ. God the Father gave Jesus of Nazareth all of the authority of the NAME "Father, Son and Spirit." Jesus of Nazareth was CALLED Father, son and spirit because the ONE GOD THE FATHER gave him that authority.

SHALL BE is future tense--maybe Donnie will give us a lesson--which means that the "son" was NOT the ONE ALMIGHTY from all eternity

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Jesus is the manifestation of GODLINESS: not God. Part A

April 15 2015, 3:17 PM 

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

God manifest (taught) IN THE FLESH Part B

April 15 2015, 5:20 PM 

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Theophilus c 181 ad first used TRIAS

April 16 2015, 1:24 PM 

There are several key proof text used to defend the trinity: Theophilus wrote to Autolycus

http://www.piney.com/HsTheopTrinity.html

The trinity creeds recognized
The One God the Father
The One Lord or SON.

It did not include the Spirit OF God as a separate person.

It seems to have been a man named Theophilus of Antioch who first applied the term trinity to this Biblical concept as early as 181 A.D. But it was the Anathasian Creed, completed some time in the fifth century, which stated it most clearly: "We worship one God in trinity, and trinity in unity, neither confounding the persons, nor separating the substance."

Theophilus listed the TITLES of God but they are not ADDITIONAL god people.

[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.180.96 on Apr 16, 2015 7:47 PM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Theophilus c 181 ad first used TRIAS

May 3 2015, 9:34 PM 

"It did not include the Spirit OF God as a separate person."

What a remarkable statement based on the link's article provided above!!!

I've already pointed out earlier that one can find the description of the biblical "trinity" even in the first few verses of the first book of the Holy Scripture -- IN THE BEGINNING:

(1) God (the Father) created the heaven and the earth (v.1.);
(2) And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters (v.2);
(3) And the Word of God -- when God said: "Let ____" numerous times (ff.vs.)

Fact: There is ONLY ONE GOD -- the Father.
Fact: God the Father sent His only begotten Son (Jesus Christ)
Fact: It was the Word of God (LOGOS) in the beginning with God
............. which became flesh (Jesus) 2000 years ago
Fact: It was God the Father who made Jesus both Lord and Christ.
Fact: Throughout all the epistles, salutation references were made only to:
............. (1) God the Father and
............. (2) His Son Jesus Christ
Fact: There are many other facts....

The word "spirit" is defined as wind (Acts 1-2), power (Gen. 1ff), breath (Job 27), mind (NT) -- never a person. Never a separate person/being



 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Theophilus c 181 ad first used TRIAS

May 3 2015, 10:33 PM 

I am working on Isaiah 42 which is the Spirit OF Christ (Messiah) PROPHESYING:

Is. 41:27 The first shall say to Zion, Behold, behold them: and I will give to Jerusalem one that bringeth good tidings.
Is. 41:28 For I beheld, and there was no man; even among them, and there was no counsellor, that, when I asked of them, could answer a word.
Is. 41:29 Behold, they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten images are wind [SPIRIT] and confusion.


It always helps to see that "spirit" is grouped with other things like word, life, breath and as you noted none of these are people. The spirit OF Christ continues to make Messiah future tense.

Is 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Is. 42:2 He shall not cry, [arouse, crying, music]
nor lift up, [lift up your property for Himself.]
nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Is. 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Is. 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Is. 42:5 Thus saith God THE LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; HE that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; HE that giveth BREATH unto the people upon it, and SPIRIT to them that walk therein:
Is. 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people [excludes Priests and Levites], for a light of the Gentiles; ?
Is. 42:7 To open the blind eyes [a holy spirit], to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house [cult-like worship institutions].
Is. 42:8 I am the LORD: that is MY name: and MY glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Is. 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass
and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.


Singing forth is either the mark of the prostitute or traveling merchant. However, singing in a good sense has Jesus singing to the Gentiles when the evangelists TRAVELS.

Is. 42:10 Sing UNTO the LORD a new song,
and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.


Cultic worship centers senior pastors reply: "H... No, we won't go."

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Clarification from DCA Needed

May 15 2015, 5:22 PM 

Dave,

In your initial post, you [Dave] stated: Why Jesus was called God in Isaiah? Isaiah 9 KJV 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.... Not just The Might God, but Father also....

To which I [Donnie] responded: "... There's an equation in that comment: "Father = Son...."

Then you [Dave] stated: "Did I say Father = Son? Or did you say that I said Father = Son? ... Thought so.......same ole same ole."

Then you [Dave] stated: "If you have a problem with Jesus being called Father ("The everlasting Father), then take it up with God."

---------------------------------

Well, Dave, you didn't agree with the "equation" based on my understanding of your premise: that Father = Son (Jesus Christ).

(1) You said: That Jesus is "not just The Mighty God, but Father also...."

(2) You said: That the Son (Jesus Christ) is called "Father."

Please clarify for me: Is the Son Jesus Christ also "God the Father"?


 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.14.108

Re: Clarification from DCA Needed

May 15 2015, 7:18 PM 

Dave can answer for himself, but I thought this was a no-brainer, based on what Jesus said about Himself:

"I and my Father are one" John 10:30 KJV).

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" (John 14:9 KJV).

Back to John 1, since the Word was God, and since the Word became flesh and descended to the earth in the form of a man, then God came to earth and took on the name Jesus.

Jesus the Son is God the Father. Of course, not everyone has enough faith to accept this, "but with God all things are possible" (Matt. 19:26 KJV).


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Clarification from DCA Needed

May 15 2015, 10:35 PM 

Bill,

"I and my Father are one" to you means ONE ____what_____?:

(1) That Jesus the Son and God His Father are two persons as ONE person?????
(2) That Jesus the Son and God His Father are ONE person?
(3) That Jesus identifies himself as His own Father?
(4) That God the Father identifies Himself as His own Son?
(5) That when God the Father sent His only begotten Son [John 3:16] the Father sent Himself?
(6) That "interchangeably" speaking, the only begotten Son sent his Father to this world?
(7) That while the Father and Son are ONE, the Trinity's "Holy Spirit" is excluded?

You said: "Jesus the Son is God the Father" -- that's new to me, since I know of no scripture to support that teaching.

In other words, according to you, the equation is this: JESUS THE SON = GOD THE FATHER.

When are you going to state that the Trinitarian's "Holy Spirit" is God the Father?

When are you going to state that the Trinitarian's "Holy Spirit" is the Son of God?

It is clear to me that "the Father" and "me" in John 14:9 are different beings with similar attributes. After all, it was (1) God the Father who made (2) His Son Jesus both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36).

It is also clear to me that in John 1, it was the LOGOS (the Word), NOT the Father, that became flesh.

Now, is Bill Crump (the son) Bill Crump's father? So, your reasoning is that: "but with God all things are possible"?

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.14.108

Re: Clarification from DCA Needed

May 16 2015, 10:44 PM 

It's foolish and futile to compare humans' limited abilities with those of God. It's like comparing apples with oranges. God has infinite abilites, whereas humans do not. That's why with God, all things are possible.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that when Jesus said He and the Father are one, that they were only of one mind, nothing more. They not only were of one mind, but were also one and the same. Jesus meant that He was God in the flesh. That's what Emmanuel means: God with us -- literally.

Again, John 1 tells us that the Word was God, meaning that God and the Word were one and the same. God sent Himself to earth as the Word made flesh in the physical form of Jesus. Humans could never send themselves somewhere else in different forms. Only God could do that, and He did when He came to earth as Jesus.

We've covered all this before and quite a few times over. I'm quite comfortable believing that Jesus is a manifestation of God the Father; after all, Jesus said as much to Phillip -- he who had seen Jesus had seen the Father.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Clarification from DCA Needed

May 17 2015, 2:01 AM 

Bill,

(1) God the Father (His name is "Jehovah")
----------------- and ------------------
(2) the Son of God (His name is "Jesus Christ")
------- do not have an "identity crisis." --------


I really would like to study with you, if you have an open mind, the following:

--- The difference between "became flesh" and "manifest in the flesh";
--- Why it was the LOGOS (Word) of God that became flesh -- and not God the Father;
--- What "seen" really means since "no man hath seen God at any time" (I John 4:12);
--- Do you "SEE" what I mean? Or, I need to meet and literally "SEE" you first;
--- The difference between: (1) ONE as an identity vs. (2) ONE as united;
--- etc.

No, we have not covered all this before because everytime I posed specific, detailed questions for you to answer, you'd come back with comments such as: nothing new ... covered all this before ... etc. Actually, this all-covered-before got revived when you answered a "no-brainer" question, remember?

Would you please address the numbered items I listed above, plus several more statements I made following the list?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Only the Little Flock are able to hear God say I AM ALONE: no one Helped me.

May 17 2015, 4:40 PM 

The Word of God is the LOGOS meaning wordS which the One God the Father speaks: This is God's Regulative Principle. A Regulative Principle as just ONE of the descriptions of the ONE GOD THE FATHER is breathed into Jesus and becomes flesh as the ARTICULATED Word which humans can hear.

Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is ONE LORD:

Rom. 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


If you say that the SON is also His FATHER that's just fine: You also DENY Jesus Christ Who is the BY speaker and not the OF LOGOS.

If you ignore all known facts and say that Jesus WAS/IS His own Father; or if you say that Jesus was "God" because HE was the WORD, then there can be NO eternal Father Who BREATHES that Word INTO the "Man Jesus Christ."

Was Paul a liar and a blasphemer to call Jesus a man? The WORD becomes flesh when Jesus SPEAKS. Words are related to what one SPEAKS and words of God can never be another MAN.

John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is LIFE everlasting: whatsoever I SPEAK therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I SPEAK.

ONE is a UNUM word related to UNITED. The context proves that what Jesus spoke was ONE with what God the Father breathed into him. NO MAN hears God: only the SON reveals Him. Jesus did NOT become just WORDS: God as WORD becomes flesh when Jesus SPEAKS and the believer HEARS.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I AM IN the Father, and the Father IN ME? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The WORDS which Jesus SPOKE were SPIRIT and LIFE (John 6:63) because the same Spirit OF Christ who made God's Words FLESH in the prophets RESTED UPON Jesus and breathed inspiration into Him.

Don't worry if you chase your tail: Only the Little Flock who honors Christ by honoring the prophets and apostles who became FLESH BEARERS of the WORD.

John 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you PLAINLY OF THE FATHER.

OF proves that the Words comes only from the Father
Show Plainly is having eyes to see and ears to hear.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.15.213

Re: Clarification from DCA Needed

May 17 2015, 6:46 PM 

As I said, that Jesus is God is a no-brainer for most Christians. You would do better by returing to your most recent thread where you worry about whether Christians receive their salvation in this life or at some other time. happy.gif


----------------------------

Bill's rebuttal to each of SEVERAL arguments presented so far: "no-brainer." sad.gif


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 23.127.32.146 on May 17, 2015 8:02 PM


 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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