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Bill
(no login)
74.179.209.54

Re: Clarification from DCA Needed

May 17 2015, 8:54 PM 

Hey, it is what it is. If something's a no-brainer, why argue about it? Since it's a FACT that Jesus is God, then why argue against it?

Have fun desperately straining to convince readers otherwise. happy.gif

----------------------------

Here's the FACT: Bill has no answer to any of the questions posed. He is afraid to answer: Yes ... No ... I don't know ... I need more time ... I need to research further ... I agree ... I disagree ...

Bill's latest forms of argument:

(1) It is still a "no-brainer" ["the mystery of Christ" -- the reason for discussing it];
(2) It is a FACT [to Bill] that:
------- a. Mary is the mother of Jesus;
------- b. Jesus is God;
------- c. Therefore, Mary is "the Mother of God."

(3) Do not argue against the fact that Mary is the Mother of God/"Jesus who is God";
(4) "Have fun...."
(5) There's nothing else to argue about ... BUT I MUST HAVE THE LAST WORD.



    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 23.127.32.146 on May 17, 2015 10:10 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Clarification from DCA Needed

May 17 2015, 8:28 PM 

Donnie it's about time for another grammar lesson.

ONE in the UNUM sense means united.
God said of Himself as the CORE of Jewish Monotheism:

Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:


Literate Jews and Jesus affirmed that this is critical to being in the Kingdom:

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love THE Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is ONE God; and there is none other but he:


Was Jesus too ignorant to be a polytheist?

If we say that Joe has ONE wife we understand that in the numeric sense. Joe does not have 3 wives.

If we say that "Joe and his wife are one" we understand unum to mean that they are united. God guards us against ever thinking that Joe (1) + (1) his wife are ONE PERSON.

If Jesus says that my father and I are one we would accuse Him of being too ignorant to have said "There is just ONE God and I am that God."

Jesus is never included in the ONE GOD:

Rom. 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom. 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom. 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom. 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom. 3:30 Seeing it is ONE GOD, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1Cor. 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.


Was Paul too stupid not to say that the MAN Jesus of Nazareth WAS the ONE GOD?

Jesus repudiated the neo-trinitarians version invented c. 1938 in Nashville, Tn.

Matt. 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but ONE, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.





 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Clarification from DCA Needed

May 17 2015, 11:18 PM 

Ken, we do need a qualified grammar teacher who can explain:

(1) When "ONE" means "united" rather than "two" being "one God";
(2) The conjunction "and" in "I and my Father";
(3) The distinction between: (a) the Sender and (b) the one sent;
(4) The distinction between: (a) God the Father and (b) Jesus whom God made both Lord and Christ;
(5) The distinction between: (a) ME [seen me] and (b) THE FATHER [seen the Father];
(6) That the word "seen" means "known" or "understood" rather than eyesight-related;
(7) That the Father and the Son are not interchangeable identities;
(8) The difference between "became flesh" and "manifest in the flesh";
(9) The difference between "God with us" (in Scripture) and "I am God" (man's idea).

Can you imagine Jesus saying: "I am God the Father and I'm sending myself to earth"?

Can you imagine God the Father saying: "I am God the Father, and I'm sending myself as the only begotten Son to earth"?

The Father-Son relationship is made unnecessarily complicated by man's speculative thoughts.



 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Clarification from DCA Needed

May 16 2015, 9:02 PM 

"I and my Father are one" John 10:30 KJV).

We have noted without any hearing that the oneness is UNUM which does not mean there is an identity between the ONE ALMIGHTY and the MAN Jesus of Nazareth: they are "united" so that what the son promises is backed up by the ONE GOD THE FATHER. We have to repeat to keep people from following red herrings:

Unus
a. Ad unum, all together, unanimously, to a man, without exception:
2. Of that which is common to several persons or things, one and the same.
7. Esp., uno ore, with one voice, all together, unanimously:


Different from Jehovah

3. or solus, of that which is alone, by itself; one, alone, only, sole, single.

sōlus , A. In gen., alone, only, single, sole (syn.: “unus, unicus, singularis)


The Little Flock of tribulated Word speakers are also ONE in the same sense that Jesus is ONE.

John 17:21 That they all may be one [hen]; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. When we see Jesus whom God MADE TO BE both Lord and Christ we see the IMAGE of God because no one has SEEN God as He is and lived.

2Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Col. 1:15 Who is the , the firstborn of every creature:





 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Other Examples of 'ONE = UNITED'

May 18 2015, 3:48 PM 

[18] As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. [19] And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. [20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; [21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. [22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: (John 17, KJV).

1. God the Father clearly identified: addressed as -- "Father," thou, thee;
2. God's Son Jesus Christ clearly identified: addressed as -- I, myself, me;
3. Both (a) "that they may be one" and (b) "even as we are one" speak of UNITY.

[8] Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour (I Corinthians 3, KJV).

1. The planter identified: addressed as "he";
2. The waterer identified: addressed as "he" also;
3. They "are one" implies UNITY in their task/effort.
4. EACH one shall receive HIS OWN reward even if they're identical twins.

[12] For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ (I Corinthians 12, KJV).

1. The church identified as having MANY members;
2. Each member does not lose his/her own identity;
3. All the members of that one body "are one" body -- and Peter is not Paul.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.203.206

Re: Other Examples of 'ONE = UNITED'

May 18 2015, 6:48 PM 

Of course Jesus and God are "united" in one mind and purpose. That's because they are one and the same, because Jesus is God.

You're still struggling and making the mistake of comparing human qualities with those of God/Jesus, so you're still comparing apples with oranges. People can be "united" in one purpose yet have separate identities; thus, Peter cannot be Paul, because humans are neither divine nor omnipotent. But God/Jesus IS divine and omnipotent; God/Jesus marches to the beat of a different drum, so to speak. Therefore, unless people are exceptionally dense, it shouldn't be difficult for them to understand and accept the simple fact that Jesus is God -- one and the same.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Other Examples of 'ONE = UNITED'

May 18 2015, 11:47 PM 

This is progress -- that you've finally agreed and stated that: (1) God the Father and (2) Jesus the Son of God the Father are "united." It was worth the wait! Now we both agree that "ARE ONE" means "UNITED."

And the passage "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30) ends with a PERIOD. Yes, the Father and the Son are UNITED. Period. The passage doesn't give a reason for their being "united." But you did give a reason ... actually 2 reasons.

The first reason you gave for defining the expression "are one" contains the expression "are one." You said: "That's because they are one and the same." [Why should the definition of a word or an expression ("are one") contain the exact word or expression ("are one") being defined?]. You also added "the same" [your own words] in your reason.

The second reason you gave ("because Jesus is God") is really a topic that's been discussed for centuries. If the Scripture states that "Jesus is God," then, it is unequivocal and factual. If man states that "Jesus is God," and the Scripture doesn't, it's only an idea of man.

Neither of your reasons is factual. Both reasons are your own and they do not explain why God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ "are one" or "are united."

Instead, let the Scripture state facts to all of us:

(1) Christ is the image of God (II Cor. 4:4);
(2) Man was created in the image of God (Gen. 1:27; 9:6).

Let's not speculate that the created Adam was God. What does "the image of God" mean to you?

Bill, it is common knowledge, including those "dense" Christians, that we do not even attempt to compare human qualities with God's. That's not even part of the argument. You didn't even see the point I was making about Peter and Paul. Review it.

The divinity of Christ does not change the fact (TRUTH) that it was God the Father who sent His only begotten Jesus Christ. Your mistake is that you're equating: (1) "God the Father" with (2) "the Son of God the Father."


 
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DCA
(no login)
107.142.253.246

Re: Other Examples of 'ONE = UNITED'

May 19 2015, 5:15 PM 

If the Scripture states that "Jesus is God," then, it is unequivocal and factual.

NOW DONNIE....you are getting there. For the Scriptures leave no doubt that IT SAYS Jesus is God, with:

John
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us

The Word was God
The Word became flesh (Jesus)

If Jesus (unnamed in the beginning when He was with God) WAS God, then Jesus IS God.

Keep it simple!



 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Here's How to Keep It Simple:

May 19 2015, 10:09 PM 

No --

1. The passage does NOT say: "Jesus is God."
2. Neither does it say: "God the Father became Jesus."
3. Neither does it say: "God the Father is Jesus the Son of God."
4. Neither does it say: "God became flesh"

What it says is that the Word (the LOGOS) of God (His SPOKEN WORD) became flesh ... or it would have said: "God became flesh."

Does it say "God became flesh"? NO ... NO ... NO.

Be careful with human DEDUCTIVE LOGIC.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.63.52

Re: Here's How to Keep It Simple:

May 19 2015, 10:30 PM 

I know we'll just continue to have fun by going round and round with this without really going anywhere, but...

John 1 does say that the Word was God. It doesn't say that the Word and God were two different beings. It says that the Word was God. Therefore, the Word and God are one and the same.

John 1 also says that the Word became flesh, meaning Jesus. Therefore, since the Word is God and since the Word became flesh, then God became Jesus in the flesh.

God, the Word, and Jesus are synonyms for the same being. Yes, indeed.

That's keeping it quite simple. happy.gif

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Let It Be Complete, Bill

May 20 2015, 1:05 AM 

Bill believes that these are synonymous in reference to God:

God the Father = the Son of God the Father
God the Father = the Word (LOGOS)
God the Father = Jesus Christ
God the Father = the "Holy Spirit" [Trinity] = God
God the Father = One who became flesh
The Word (God) = the Holy Spirit (God)
The Son of God the Father = the Holy Spirit
Jehovah = Jesus Christ
Jehovah = the Holy Spirit

... I've lost track of the other combinations.

Did you forget about the Trinitarian's Holy Spirit being God? You can fill in the rest of the equation ... including the holy Spirit of God.

Yes, the Word that God SPOKE (LOGOS) was God, but it was the LOGOS of God that became flesh in contrast to the SPIRIT of God becoming flesh. The spirit is not flesh and it cannot become flesh. But God's Word (LOGOS), according to His divine plan, is what became flesh -- when God the Father sent His only begotten Son Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 8:6 -- But to us (1) there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and (2) one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Eph. 4:6 -- One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Tim. 2:5 -- For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.63.52

Re: Let It Be Complete, Bill

May 20 2015, 10:39 AM 

Until you come to realize that with God all things are possible, you'll always deny that Jesus is God.

BTW, your fonts of different colors and sizes are merely window dressing. They won't change the fact that Jesus is God.

Your long-winded responses are acts of desperation. They also won't change the fact that Jesus is God.

happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Let It Be Complete, Bill

May 20 2015, 12:57 PM 

Bill: Until you come to realize that with God all things are possible, you'll always deny that Jesus is God.

Of course, that is a lie:

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, [Theos]
AND an apostle of Jesus Christ,
according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;


AND or KAI prove that Jesus Christ is NOT God. "Salute Prisca and Aquila" Aquila is NOT Prisca. Jesus of Nazareth was Jesus of Nazareth until:

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord [Kurios] and Christ.


God cannot Lie:

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;


If you contradict these verses then you are lying to God and about God and claim some supernatural power to USURP the Word. The WORD becomes FLESH by preaching then and now:

Titus 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his WORD through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

God "breathes" spirit into Jesus of Nazareth "without metron" meaning without METER as the way to dispute the pagan "logos" as Hermes, Mercury or Kairos" who INVENTED the harp used by Abaddon-Apollon. Jesus then SPEAKS what the ONE GOD THE FATHER tells Him to speak. This was PROPHESIED and must be "made more certain" by Jesus of Nazareth Who is "god" only in the immanuel or elohim sense:

Deut. 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words [dabar-logos] in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.


God as WORD in the same sense that God LOVE SPEAKS the Regulative Principle. Logos or Word is what God SPEAKS which never ceases being His "son" according to real trinitarians.

Deut. 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which HE shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

The Spirit OF Christ restated this INCLUSIVE-EXCLUSIVE Regulative Principle in Isaiah 58: the REST marks as false teachers those who "seek their own pleasure or even SPEAK THEIR OWN WORDS." This is such a trigger point to MARK angels of light that the command is always to SPEAK or READ that which is written FOR OUR LEARNING.

Those who speak on their own--outlawed by the logos concept--are called by Jesus SONS OF THE DEVIL.



 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.12.217

Re: Let It Be Complete, Bill

May 20 2015, 6:54 PM 

You've been tossing around quite a few Scriptures in a vain attempt to "prove" that Jesus is not God. Well, they tell me all the more that Jesus is God.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Let It Be Complete, Bill

May 21 2015, 3:31 AM 

OK, then, Bill, let's take one passage at a time:

I Timothy 2:5 -- For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

It says: "the man Christ Jesus."

Why do you want it to say: "the man-and-God Christ Jesus"?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Let It Be Complete, Bill

May 21 2015, 3:32 AM 

OK, then, Bill, let's take one passage at a time:

1 Cor. 8:6 -- But to us (1) there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and (2) one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

It says: "... there is but one God, the Father."

Why do you want it to say: "... there is but one God, the Son of God"?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Let It Be Complete, Bill

May 21 2015, 3:33 AM 

OK, then, Bill, let's take one passage at a time:

Eph. 4:6 -- One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

It says: "one God and Father of all."

Why do you want it to say: "one God and Son of all"?

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.12.217

Re: Let It Be Complete, Bill

May 21 2015, 8:50 AM 

The entire New Testament tells me that Jesus is God. No doubt you're so desperate that you would begin with Matt. 1:1, one verse at a time, and go through the whole NT in a vain attempt to "prove" to the world once and for all that Jesus is not God.

Man, you really are desperate, aren't you? happy.gif

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.12.217

Re: Let It Be Complete, Bill

May 21 2015, 8:51 AM 

The entire New Testament tells me that Jesus is God. No doubt you're so desperate that you would begin with Matt. 1:1, one verse at a time, and go through the whole NT in a vain attempt to "prove" to the world once and for all that Jesus is not God.

Man, you really are desperate, aren't you? happy.gif

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.12.217

Re: Let It Be Complete, Bill

May 21 2015, 8:52 AM 

The entire New Testament tells me that Jesus is God. No doubt you're so desperate that you would begin with Matt. 1:1, one verse at a time, and go through the whole NT in a vain attempt to "prove" to the world once and for all that Jesus is not God.

Man, you really are desperate, aren't you? happy.gif

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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