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Legalism Part A + Part B: a RACA word for those who don't BOW when others PIPE

April 25 2015 at 2:06 PM
Ken Sublett  (Login Ken.Sublett)
from IP address

The mantra is that if you do not let the NACC transistion your congregation to being instrumental and paying your dues is that if you resist being transistioned or even define legalsim as what they want to impose as a laded burden, they you are a LEGALIST. This is defined over time so that people are afraid to be called a legalist or sectarian for refusing to join the instrumental sectarians you are now defined as ANTI- instrumentalist which makes you fair game so that they can "take an axe to you."

They need to LADE the burden Jesus removed from the TIRED or be BANNED from the profiteers who do not believe the Word enough to suffer as Jesus did and promised to those who speak that which has BEEN TAUGHT for our learning. Performance speaking, music and "programs" are effective in preventing YOU from being able to DEFINE the Words simple simon would have heard Jesus promise to His LITTLE FLOCK (mikros).

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This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Apr 25, 2015 6:41 PM

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Ken Sublett
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Matthew 21 The TIRED and fed up Part B

April 25 2015, 6:40 PM 

Legalism is hiring a huge STAFF to perform WORK justified as serving GOD and the Church: such STAFF not part of Teaching that which has been taught are the BURDEN LADERS Jesus pried off the backs of liberated Little Flock as well as the sincere Evangelist Purpose Driven to teach the Word, Logos, Regulative principle or what we define as the laded burden which makes people TIRED without needing to pay a "minister" to master their Friday night TGIF.

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Donnie Cruz
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Legalism or Being Legalistic: The Accusation

April 26 2015, 12:08 AM 

In a most recent discussion about: "The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings ... and Nudity," here are highlights of the conversation between Just Layman and Donnie regarding "legalism":

Just Layman: Donnie, it has been reported over the years that you sing at Church. How do you justify your singing?"

Donnie: When the Praise Team was first introduced at Madison some 14 years ago by the "Worship Leader" Keith Lancaster ... -- which caused a major division both in the eldership and in the membership -- much has changed in me concerning singing "at church."

I detest the entertainment and performance aspects in musical worship. (Thanks to the [current] elders for getting rid of the 2-male and 2-female performers on stage....

I avoid "spiritual" erotic, non-scriptural, repetitive songs, even by the title: If you miss me ... you are the one for me ... Oh, I was made for this: to know your tender kiss ... my feet were made to dance ... for I was made for you ... I felt your warm embrace ...

...And we need to respect what the Bible says and what history has recorded for our knowledge. There is no example or command for congregational singing in the Bible; that "congregational singing" AS WE KNOW IT TODAY has its own history: certainly not dating back to the 1st century Christian era....

Just Layman: Donnie, I think your core values have changed. You no longer support the traditional COC congregational singing. The term "Change Agent" could be used to describe your actions. ... Donnie, "Legalism" will have you sitting on the couch on Sunday mornings... sulking and complaining how terribly wrong it all is. You are driving a wedge between yourself and the Church you claim to support!

Accept a dose of GRACE and quit "hiding" to sing praises to your Lord and Savior. Time is short! Spend more quality time at Church!

Donnie: Just, I'm not sure where you got your definition of "legalism." If I abide by what the Scripture says to "let the word of Christ dwell in you richly," is that "legalism" to you? I simply have no desire to let Bart Millard's words, "will I dance for you, Jesus" ... dwell in me.

To emphasize "letting the word of Christ dwell in you richly," is not driving a wedge between myself and the church of Christ Jesus that I support. I know it. It's the truth from the Scripture.

"Grace" is God's part, and it is not to be abused. Man's part is obedience. Even Christ himself ensampled obedience to God the Father. Please read this: "[8] Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; [9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5, KJV)....

I participate in congregational singing when the message is Scripture-based and when it is performance-and-entertainment-free. No, I would not sing, "I will dance for you, Jesus."

Just Layman: That's really sad Donnie. Your legalism has you bound up in a knot. As a result, I see you on your couch on Sunday mornings. Just tried to help my small way. Later.

Sorry Donnie, but it does seem to be a severe case of cumulative legalism. happy.gif This will help you! ... Introduction to Grace ... Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; ... Eph 2:5-8 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Donnie: ... I gather from your response that there is freedom from the bondage of legalism:

(1) When the message is NOT Scripture-based and
(2) When the act is performance- and entertainment-driven.

Your CONTRAST between "legalism" and "grace" is not making sense. (Sorry to inform you.)


I was wrong. I had thought "legalism" described only churches. Now, to the accuser, "legalism" is a label which describes an individual.

The accusation is that it is "legalism" or "legalistic" when one supports the principle that any belief, doctrine or practice should be Scripture-based and/or that true "worship" is devoid of the elements of entertainment and performance. The Restoration Movement's principle: "We speak where the Bible speaks; we are silent where the Bible is silent" is ludicrous and objectionable to the accuser.

(1) The change agents in the brotherhood will label or accuse congregations in the church of Christ of being legalistic when their compromised "truth" or doctrine, beliefs and practices are rejected as they invade and attempt to divide, conquer and acquire.

(2) The denominational world will label or accuse the church of Christ (including the change agents "in the church") as legalistic when it abides by the teachings of the New Testament concerning the church that Christ established and what the N.T. really teaches regarding salvation.

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Just Layman
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Re: Legalism or Being Legalistic: The Accusation

April 26 2015, 4:14 PM 

Sorry Donnie, it was ignorance on my part and maybe I was being a little too cute. You did not deserve what I said about you. See you later.

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Legalism or Being Legalistic: The Accusation

April 26 2015, 7:51 PM 


Not a problem. Actually, it was a "fun" and "entertaining" conversation about singing and congregational singing ... although "legalism" came up. Oops ... I said "fun and entertaining." But we weren't in the assembly for "worship." happy.gif

What you said about me and my stance on certain doctrinal issues did not bother me ... and we were communicating civilly.

As I said, many religious groups would label churches of Christ as "legalistic" the moment any of the following is mentioned: Christ established only one church ... there is no conversion or redemption prior to baptism ... the Christian is to do good works as "faith without works is dead" ... eternal life is a promise to be rewarded to the faithful Christian, etc.

Have a great week.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Legalism or Being Legalistic: The Accusation

April 26 2015, 11:14 PM 

Christians obey the LAW OF CHRIST which is not the LAW OF MOSES or the law of self righteousness proven by those who think that their worship antics can earn merit from God. The promised Holy Spirit is called the Spirit OF Truth or the mental disposition of truth:

2John 4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children
......walking in truth, we have received a commandment from the Father.
2John 2 For the truth’s sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
2John 3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace,
......from God the Father,
......and from the Lord Jesus Christ,
......the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
2John 4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in TRUTH, we have received a commandment from the Father.
2John 5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee,
......but that which we had from the beginning,
......that we love one another.
2John 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments.
......This is the commandment, [is a law]
......That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Walking is hodos or the ROAD tread by the SECT that is called the WAY: it is narrow, exclusive and obeys the COMMANDS of God some dare call legalism. 2. walk about while teaching, discourse, 4. of the Christian Faith and its followers, pattern, system. Come to Teach.

The craftsmen, speakers, singers, instrument players are called sorcerers who HAD DECEIVED the World: perhaps the old world since God used Jesus of Nazareth to create the new "world."

2Cor. 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Cor. 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Cor. 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

2John 7 For many deceivers are ENTERED into the world,
......who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
......This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2John 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought,
......but that we receive a full reward.
2John 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
......He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ [What Christ taught and commanded],
......the hath both the Father and the Son.
2John 10 If there come any unto you,
......and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house,
......neither bid him God speed:
2John 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Apr 26, 2015 11:23 PM

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Ken Sublett
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Tired and Fed up Part C

April 27 2015, 1:01 PM 

If you want to define LEGALISM and the LADED BURDEN it is important to look at contemporaneous literature. It is simple but beyond simple lexicons and sermon outlines to see how words are USED by people who taught Paul as a child. The ways in which a word is used is not a unique definition. However, if you see how PSALLO is used and there is no good meaning in context it would be unwise to use a singular word as a gift of grace to deliberately sow discord. In addition such dangerous and reckless speakers may know but will not tell that recorded history defines them as Angels of Blight.

Plato, for instance, defines the ideal state by defining musical terms marking really evil people. He notes that the falsetto singing at altars can alter the nature and produce 'gender bleed' or gender crossover.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

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At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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