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Does the Christian Have Everlasting Life NOW?

May 15 2015 at 4:05 AM
Donnie Cruz  (no login)
from IP address 23.127.32.146

Throughout the Bible, in the majority of cases in the New Testament, we find the expression "everlasting life." We also find "life everlasting," "eternal life" or "life eternal." In our study, we will be using these expressions synonymously.

There are religions that teach that when one outside of Christ becomes a Christian (and we'd expect the conversion process to vary), the Christian automatically receives and has everlasting life. The well-accepted passage to support this doctrine is John 3:16 -- "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

On the other hand, there are those who teach that after his initial salvation or conversion, the Christian, is to do good works also (in addition to his faith) and remain faithful to the end in order to receive everlasting life. There is that "hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2; 3:7). Rev. 2:10 -- "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

There are over 40 passages in the New Testament that speak of everlasting life or the other similar expressions [using the KJV for the search]. So, this subject is worth our review and study.

The passages quoted above may seem contradictory. But not really, when we do this: "rightly dividing the word of truth" (II Tim. 2:15).

Do we NOW have eternal life? Yes? No? Yes and No? Find those 40+ verses.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Does the Christian Have Everlasting Life NOW?

May 16 2015, 9:20 PM 

This topic is very important because increasingly a pseudo-Calvinism emerges out of the "scholarly circles." A local preacher denied that baptism was required for the beginning of that life by quoting

Luke 19:9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.


He just ignored verse 8 which prompted verse 9

Luke 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

This fella took my goods and gave them to himself. But, note verse 10:

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.


That's the LITTLE FLOCK He came to save OUT of the World or the ECUMENICAL.

Another says that God has crafted him a crown and he cannot lose it.

"SALVATION" defines the meaning of IT IS and rests at the ENTRANCE to that strait gate at the end of the narrow, exclusive WAY or SECT and FEW will find it.



 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Does the Christian Have Everlasting Life NOW?

May 19 2015, 2:09 PM 

While discussing the thread, "You Ever Wonder Why [Jesus is God and Father]???" ... one poster (Bill), who seemed/was irritated when asked several technical questions, made this statement: "As I said, that Jesus is God is a no-brainer for most Christians. You would do better by returing to your most recent thread where you worry about whether Christians receive their salvation in this life or at some other time. happy.gif "

So, we're back to this thread: "Does the Christian Have Everlasting Life NOW?"

This thread is not about "my" worry. This thread is about understanding whether or not the Christian has everlasting life, which is a reward, NOW.

Isn't it common knowledge that the award or reward (e.g., the "inheritance ... reserved in heaven" or an Olympic gold medal in a 100-meter sprint) is to be received AFTER one has accomplished or completed or achieved something?

Bill, this new and different thread was initiated with you in mind.

The Baptist religion teaches the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" with the implication that eternal life is received upon conversion [whatever that process is] and that the Christian does not "fall from grace."

What say you?

 
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Bill
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74.179.209.170

Re: Does the Christian Have Everlasting Life NOW?

May 19 2015, 3:04 PM 

Frankly, I don't worry when the Christian has everlasting life. The faithful Christian will get it in due course. That should be sufficient.

Hey, if you really want to worry about something, maybe you should return to that thread where you vainly try to convince everybody that Jesus is not God. You were/are obviously irritated when I said I believe that Jesus IS God, because you posted several long messages of dissent. So, I'll let you worry some more about it for awhile. happy.gif

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Does the Christian Have Everlasting Life NOW?

May 19 2015, 10:18 PM 

Help is needed. Can anyone suggest a religious topic or topics that Bill Crump would like to discuss? Lest I forget, Bill, what biblical topic would you like to discuss?

 
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Bill
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74.179.63.52

Re: Does the Christian Have Everlasting Life NOW?

May 19 2015, 11:06 PM 

I can't think of a topic right off that's really urgent that hasn't already been blown to smithereens in other threads.

Perhaps a few among the alleged thousands of loyal readers who've heretofore posted nothing would be brave enough to suggest some valuable topics for discussion.

Frankly, I would think that dead-end topics wouldn't interest readers and would possibly dissuade them from participating. Examples of dead-end topics would include whether or not Jesus is God and exactly when the faithful Christian receives his salvation. Those and similar topics pose endlessly recycled arguments that don't go anywhere. happy.gif

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Does the Christian Have Everlasting Life NOW?

May 20 2015, 1:18 AM 

I see. There must be certain dead-end topics that continually interest you because you keep participating when they're revived. Hmm.

That's OK, Bill. If this thread doesn't interest you, there's nothing I can do about that. We'll continue the discussion without you. (I'm just time-bound right now. But I'll quote the passages that would seem to favor the "once saved, always saved" theology; and I'll also quote the passages that would negate the "once saved, always saved" theology. Remember, you're not required to read subsequent posts ... nor comment about them.)

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Does the Christian Have Everlasting Life NOW?

May 19 2015, 8:58 PM 

There are many in Churches of Christ who hold the same view. For instance, is your new youth leader connected with the man who financed the PCA invasion and discord at Smith Springs? I know a man who says that God has fashioned him a crown and he cannot lose it. At the same time he twists the only text he has. Only a Little Flock will grasp the invitation: they are marked or sealed because they insist on wanting to be baptized.

Eternity by definition is not related to a long time and it does not begin until "time shall be no more." The problem is that the pseudo Calvinists (never read Calvin) lift a verse out of context and are punished by not being able to read any more: God sends them strong delusions.

Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present TIME, and in the world to come life everlasting.

Is. 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty ONE that inhabiteth ETERNITY, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Rom 2:1 THEREFORE thou art inexcusable, O man,
.....whosoever thou art that judgest:
.....for wherein thou judgest another,
.....thou condemnest thyself;
.....for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God
.....is according to truth
..... against them which commit such things.

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this,
.....O man, that judgest them which do such things,
.....and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering;
.....not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Rom 2:5 But, after thy hardness and impenitent heart,
.....treasurest up unto thyself wrath against
.....the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious,
.....and do not obey the truth,
.....but obey unrighteousness,
.....indignation and wrath,


The Musical Idolaters COUNT on being contentious as a way to dissociate people to enable slipping in error.

2052.eritheia, er-ith-i´-ah; perhaps as the same as 2042; properly, intrigue, i.e. (by implication) faction: — contention(-ious), strife.

Contentio an eager stretching, a straining, exertion of the powers of body or mind, tension, effort, a vigorous struggling or striving for something, a struggle after. Labored, formal speech (opp. talk, conversation) In rhetoric, a contrasting of one thought with another, sermo in circulis, contentio disceptationibus

Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish,
.....upon every soul of man that doeth evil;
.....of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace,
.....to every man that WORKETH GOOD
.....to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Calvinists say that God IS a respecter of personS and therefore gladly call Paul a Liar and "Just preach Jesus."


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.180.96 on May 19, 2015 9:02 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Does the Christian Have Everlasting Life NOW?

May 21 2015, 10:09 PM 

Heb. 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb. 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb. 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb. 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb. 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


g5289. hupostole, hoop-os-tol-ay´; from 5288; shrinkage (timidity), i.e. (by implication) apostasy: — draw back.

684. apoleia, ap-o´-li-a; from a presumed derivative of 622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): — damnable(-nation), destruction, die, perdition, x perish, pernicious ways, waste.

1Cor. 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

'After ye have ... ye might receive the promise'

May 22 2015, 2:12 AM 

For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. (Heb.10:36)

Key words in the passage:

1. after (Does it mean "now now"?)
2. might (Does it mean "not so sure"?)
3. promise (Does it mean "not currently experienced?)

Since Ken started it ("giving it away"), I'm going to do the same (but we will study and list those passages than seem to favor the "once saved, always saved" theology.

The other passage I'm thinking is this: In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began (Titus 1:2).



 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: 'After ye have ... ye might receive the promise'

May 22 2015, 10:25 AM 

I believe you will have to present both sides: many, many people read forums but are not brave enough to make comments. I tried to jog the process.

Preachers and professors have a collection of proof texts and recorded history proves that clergy was hired to defend the position of the hiring church. Venturing outside of those core dogmas will usually get you fired. Disciples come one by one and they should gain the "spirit OF sonship" and study all facets of the "eternal life" story.

However, if anyone wants to join in they should know that no one has to know their identity. At the same time they should not be threatened if their views are challenged by looking at all sides of the eternal life teachings.

Only those "saved at baptism" are promised A holy spirit or A good conscience, consciousness or a co perception of the Word. Being "born again" (not from above) gives one new life at the beginning. Maybe responders will show why they cannot lose that life. If a "life" does not grow it will certainly die.

 
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Scripture
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23.117.130.209

Re: 'After ye have ... ye might receive the promise'

May 22 2015, 10:54 AM 

1 John seems to consider the presence of life now.

1 John 3:13 Marvel not, brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He that loves not abides in death. 15 Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Read the book of 1 John carefully.

Whether we can fall from eternal life is still another subject. The presence of life now does not mean that we would never lose faith nor fail to love. The verses that are tricky for those who believe in eternal security are in Romans 8, which some think implies that those led by the Spirit can never fall.

This ties back into the thought of some that the Holy Spirit is a Clear Conscience which itself is a product of obedience.

So there are several issues in the topic under consideration.

 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: 'After ye have ... ye might receive the promise'

May 22 2015, 5:23 PM 

Jesus promised that those who spoke HIS word as He spoke only what He heard from the Father would be hated. John says it again:

1John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was OF that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.
1John 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world [the ecumenical] hate you.

"Cain" is derived from a musical NOTE or mark and Jesus said that those who speak on their own are sons of the Devil

Isn't there a MARK in that passage to test for eternal life--now and forever?

Has a meek and humble believer ever said that God had predestined them and they could not be lost?


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.180.96 on May 22, 2015 5:29 PM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: 'After ye have ... ye might receive the promise'

June 3 2015, 1:49 AM 

Scripture,

It's interesting that you mentioned: "... the thought of some that the Holy Spirit is a Clear Conscience...."

I would briefly comment that if I were to clarify Acts 2:38, the passage would state: Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the [a kind/type of] spirit that is holy. There are two related benefits from baptism: (1) remission of sins and (2) a clear conscience or refreshing as also defined in a parallel passage -- Acts. 3:19.

As I mentioned at the outset, whether it is NOW or IN THE FUTURE, there are passages that seem to be categorized one way or the other. It appears that the passage you quoted from I John favors the NOW time frame for it says "has eternal life."

I totally agree with you that "there are several issues in the topic under consideration."

Hopefully, very soon I'll be able to compile two columns of passages that favor either: (1) NOW or (2) IN THE FUTURE. And attempt to reconcile what seems to be controversial ... but not really.




 
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Scripture
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23.117.130.209

Re: 'After ye have ... ye might receive the promise'

June 4 2015, 8:32 AM 

There is much to digest from 1 John, and can be profitable for us.

Here's some others passages concerning "life" from St. John

1 John 4:13This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

Those who are born of God will not "go on" sinning:

1 John 3:9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

John says that those who continue in sin are no longer alive in Him. Breaking his law is sin, and to continue is sin has neither seen him nor known him.

1 John 3:4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Thus, John implies, that those who profess to be alive in Him, and yet continue in sin, have neither seen him nor known Him.

 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: 'After ye have ... ye might receive the promise'

June 4 2015, 12:11 PM 

John's gospel has Jesus confirming that: Life is in Jesus Christ and He said "My words are spirit and LIFE."

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

That agrees with the talents given by the absentee Landlord. No one doubts what God can do but our task is to use that which He has given us.

 
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Scripture
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Re: 'After ye have ... ye might receive the promise'

June 4 2015, 3:17 PM 

With a warning to the gnostics of the world, the writer of 1 Timothy reminds Timothy that obsession with myths and endless genealogies are not conducive to sound spirituality. That higher plane is related to having a pure heart and a good conscience. The goal is to advance God's work through faith--faith that the good work will be for God's rule being accomplished on earth. Those who consider themselves to be great teachers of the law have exaggerated their knowledge, and have a fruitless pride.

On the other hand those who use the law properly are grounded in the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel. That gospel is entrusted to us to spread to the non-Christian world. The law is with value however, in that it makes clear to the sinner that he is in need of a graceful God.

1 Timothy 1:3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

8We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: 'After ye have ... ye might receive the promise'

June 4 2015, 5:39 PM 

Things are sliding off to the right; I will post my "picture" below

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Does the Christian Have Everlasting Life NOW?

May 25 2015, 11:26 PM 

People who say that they are predestined and cannot lose their crown also intend to deliberately sow discord by imposing instrumental music and other parasitic "ministries" do not-perhaps cannot--understand that when Paul was worrying about being a castaway, he used the musical idolatry of the Egyptian trinity as examples of those who HAD been castaway and without redemption.

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Does the Christian Have Everlasting Life NOW?

June 4 2015, 5:51 PM 

Response to Scripture: Just about anything beyond the WORD is a myth or fable. That does not prevent the progressive from lapping up Jewish and Babylonian fables: the fables you must subscribe to to get a passing grade from a professor whose published book is the "that which is written for our learning." In posting the GOD IS word, faith, grace etc it is important to try to define what God IS before you pretend to lead a flock in His Steps (the Sect called the WAY which is narrow, exclusive and despised by the WORLD VIEW.).

http://www.piney.com/Joseph.Shulam.Netivyah.The.Way.of.The.Lord.html

http://www.piney.com/Joe.Shulam.First.Century.Jewish.Identity.as.Model.html

God never creates, recreates, regenerates, upbuilds, saves or etc. by rhetoric, singing, playing instruments, acting, dancing, shouting, clapping or laying by in store for the Senior Pastor.

Jewish Fables would include the 'Lying pen of the Scribes' as they elevated the Temple as well as the "traditions of the elders" now being foisted into Churches of Christ by those collecting money as Messianic Jews. They get paid and defended even when they claim that the New Covenant of Messiah is really the OLD COVENANT made only to the Jews and proselytes.

[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.180.96 on Jun 4, 2015 5:56 PM


 
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