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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

THE Holy Spirit OF God

December 16 2015, 11:11 PM 

Christians should not disturb the Spirit of God. It is also a.k.a. "the Spirit of the Lord." It is mentioned over 50 times in the entire Bible.

"The Spirit of God" is HOLY -- that's with the definite article THE and with the preposition OF. IT IS NOT A PERSON.

So, God has a "spirit" and it is HOLY. It is not a person. We are to "grieve not THE HOLY Spirit OF God" (Ephesians 4:4, KJV) -- that's with the definite article THE and the preposition OF.

Man has a "spirit" and by nature it is unholy. Man's spirit is NOT ANOTHER PERSON. Man receives the gift of his spirit being made holy (thus, a holy spirit) when he puts on Christ in baptism for the forgiveness of all his past sins.

Hopefully, the Christian is aware that "THE Holy Spirit" (definite article THE) belongs to God only. Again, God's Spirit is not another "person" and it belongs to Him only.

Hopefully, the Christian is aware that he receives a holy spirit (pure conscience) at baptism and strives to maintain a spirit that is holy and pure throughout his Christian living.

 
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Kenneth Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: God Help Us! (It's All in the Bible)

December 16 2015, 11:32 AM 

We have noted that Constantine picked the view of Athanaeus over Arius. However, the debate had nothing to do with a "trinity" but of the Incarnation. Athanaeus taught at the ONE GOD literally lived in and appeared as Jesus of Nazareth. The creed that slowly evolved did not include a holy spirit as part of this Incarnation because it was the spirit God Who indwelled Jesus.

We have also noted that Athanaeus agreed with the Greeks that the KOSMOS was really a BODY and the WORD regulated that Kosmos. This agrees with the Jews and all pagans that the five planets (wandering stars) along with the Sun and Moon were the visible rulers of this Body. God turned Israel over to Sabazianism and both Amos and Stephen name some of these "gods."

Pagans among us agree with the Greeks that the LOGOS was a living person.

The false teachers Cut-N-Paste Scripture and men like Alexander Campbell to say that he was a TRINITARIAN but he JUST objected to the confused language. I have Cut-N-Pasted some of the context.

The modus of the Divine existence, as well as the modus of the Divine operations in creation, providence, and redemption, is, to our finite minds, the creatures of yesterday, wholly inscrutable and incomprehensible. On both, the Bible is silent. Becomes it us, then, to be dogmatical on such a theme, or to stretch our inquiries beyond the terra firma of revelation?

My principal objection to the popular doctrine of "the Trinity" is not that it is either irrational, or unscriptural, to infer that there are three Divine persons in one Divine nature. That these three equally have one thought, purpose, will, and operation, and so one God;--or, to use the words of the Westminster Confession, "In the Unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity;"

I say I object not to this doctrine because it is contrary to reason, or revelation,
This is where the Leonard Allen, John Mark Hicks etal stop quoting. Notice that this cannot be an accidence or ignorance.

.....but because of the metaphysical technicalities,
.....the unintelligible jargon,
.....the unmeaning language of the orthodox creeds on this subject,
.....and the interminable war of words without ideas
.....to which the word Trinity has given birth.

For example, in the same section from which I have quoted the above words is found the following jargon: "The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son."

Were any one to ask me, Can there be three distinct persons, or even being, in one God? I would say,
.....Reason informs me not,
.....and revelation does not assert it.

But if asked, Can there be one, and [99] one three in the same sense?
.....I reply, Both reason and revelation say No.

But then no Trinitarian or Calvinist affirms that the three are one, and the one three, in the same sense.


 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Is Christ, Who Is the IMAGE OF God, God????????

December 27 2015, 11:32 PM 

There is a huge difference between:

(1) The WORD (LOGOS) OF GOD becoming flesh [John 1:14]
----------------- and -------------------
(2) The only true GOD (the FATHER) literally becoming a human being [no scripture for this].


Christians are so brainwashed with the Trinity doctrine that they can't think any other way. It is so easy for them to make the same assertion that God became a human being as a man. (The feminist should contest this fallacy: it is discriminatory -- why not as a female? But then how can one fallacy make an argument against another fallacy?)

Trinity adherents cannot leave the Scripture and its correctness alone!!! The Trinity creed states that Jesus Christ is God. The Scripture declares that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. There are other false assertions made in the Trinity doctrine that the Scripture opposes.

Based on the Trinity doctrine that God became a man, we are led to believe erroneously that not only did God have a "Mother, the Virgin Mary" but that also did God have a cousin. God "had a cousin" when He was "in the flesh" while He (God) "literally lived" on this earth????? Wow!!!

Now Jesus had brothers and sisters (Mark 6:3; etc.) ... and a cousin (Luke 1:36-58) -- this is the TRUTH about the MAN Jesus, the mediator between God and men. If we honestly think about it, God cannot be the mediator between God and men -- which doesn't make sense. For the Son of God to be the mediator between God and men -- that makes sense!

Since God became Jesus (per the man-made Trinity dogma), God had brothers and sisters and a cousin!!! Is this what you want to believe?

 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Is Christ, Who Is the IMAGE OF God, God????????

December 28 2015, 11:46 AM 

If you read John Calvin's paper on adult baptism you understand why Alexander Campbell said that Calvin could almost be a "Campbellite."

Campbell badmouthed Calvin about the "trinity" but someone changed Calvin's mind (a dangerous effort) so that he spoke of the THREE ASPECTS of God. Aspects is like the PERSONAE because no one ever dared to say that God was a "person" in the modern sense of a "people."

But then no Trinitarian or Calvinist affirms that the three are one, and the one three, in the same sense.

1.The fanatics wrongly appeal to the Holy Spirit

Those who, rejecting Scripture, imagine that they have some peculiar way of penetrating to God, are to be deemed not so much under the influence of error as madness. For certain giddy men have lately appeared, who, while they make a great display of the superiority of the Spirit,

reject all reading of the Scriptures themselves, and deride the simplicity of those who only delight in what they call the dead and deadly letter. But I wish they would tell me what spirit it is whose inspiration raises them to such a sublime height that they dare despise the doctrine of Scripture as mean and childish.

If they answer that it is the Spirit of Christ, their confidence is exceedingly ridiculous;

since they will, I presume, admit that the apostles and other believers in the primitive Church were not illuminated by any other Spirit. None of these thereby learned to despise the word of God, but every one was imbued with greater reverence for it, as their writings most clearly testify.

And, indeed, it had been so foretold by the mouth of Isaiah. For when he says,

"My Spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever,"

he does not tie down the ancient Church to external doctrine, as he were a mere teacher of elements; he rather shows that,

under the reign of Christ, the true and full felicity of the new Church will consist in their being ruled not less by the Word than by the Spirit of God.

Hence we infer that these miscreants are guilty of fearful sacrilege in tearing asunder what the prophet joins in indissoluble union.

 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Is Christ, Who Is the IMAGE OF God, God????????

December 28 2015, 3:07 PM 

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Theophilus of Antioch to Autolycus c 181

January 3 2016, 9:05 PM 

Theophilus of Anticoch c. 181 first used the word TRIAS. He was Jesus and John literate and define the nature as Father conceives, Father breathes (not a spirit person) and the Son Speaks. He lists 13 terms used to define the ONE GOD such as light, word, mind, spirit, wisdom etal. None of these are PERSONS.

http://www.piney.com/HsTheopTrinity.html

Please note that all Bible Scholars understood that the Word or Logos is God's regulative or governing principle. The Logos repudiates any and all who speak on their own (sons of the Devil says Jesus), personal opinions or experiences, poetry, singing or playing instruments. Music is distinct because it demands moving your body parts in waving, clapping or dancing in step with the spoken word.

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Tertullian the second to use the trias concept

January 4 2016, 10:37 PM 

[linked image]
[linked image]

 
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Dave
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24.31.14.205

Re: Tertullian the second to use the trias concept

January 7 2016, 9:14 PM 

Donnie, when you say "Hopefully, the Christian is aware that "THE Holy Spirit" (definite article THE) belongs to God only. Again, God's Spirit is not another "person" and it belongs to Him only.
Hopefully, the Christian is aware that he receives a holy spirit (pure conscience) at baptism and strives to maintain a spirit that is holy and pure throughout his Christian living."

The Christian is aware that YOU are trying to change the very Word of God. The Scriptures SAY in Acts 2:38 that we will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit not the gift of A holy spirit.

The Christian also knows that that YOU are shortchanging yourself when you don'accept that gift, but as for US Christians, we gladly accept the gift. What is the gift of the Holy Spirit? If you want varied opinion, then there is your conundrum. Stick to what you know.


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Tertullian the second to use the trias concept

January 8 2016, 4:56 AM 

It is common knowledge in Christendom that "the Holy Spirit" is a.k.a. "the Spirit of God" and to the Trinitarian: "God the Holy Spirit." So, let's talk "Trinitarian":

1. What is "the gift" of "God the Holy Spirit" [Trinity's 3rd Person]?
2. Why not "the gift" of "God the Father" [Trinity's 1st Person]?
3. Why not "the gift" of "God the Son" [Trinity's 2nd Person]?

Is the Trinity Creed's gender assignment accurate? Including the word "spirit" [neuter: it] as a HE? Is the Trinity Creed's "God"-ranking accurate? First: the Father; second: the Son; third: the Holy Spirit?

God the Father is in Scripture.
God the Son is NOT in Scripture.
God the Holy Spirit is NOT in Scripture.

Other questions:
1. Why is "the gift" the holy Spirit OF God (himself, itself)?
2. Why is "the gift" not Jesus Christ the Son Himself?
3. Why is "the gift" not God the Father Himself?

Acts 2:38 --
1. What to do: Repent and
2. What to do: Be baptized
-----------
3. Benefit: Receive forgiveness of sins (cleansing)
4. Benefit: Receive the gift of holy spirit (purity, clear conscience)

Acts 3:19 is the PARALLEL PASSAGE:
1. What to do: Repent and
2. What to do: Be converted (the baptism equivalent)
------------
3. Benefit: Sins blotted out (cleansing)
4. Benefit: Refreshing (no guilt, clear conscience).

When one outside of Christ is converted to Christ, is it:
(1) about forgiveness of sins and being pure, guiltless, refreshed?
---------------------- or ------------------
(2) about forgiveness of sins and receiving the HOLY GHOST? [The Charismatic may have a point and start speaking in tongues?]


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Tertullian the second to use the trias concept

January 8 2016, 1:12 PM 

The gift OF the Holy Spirit is never translated as the GIFT which IS the Holy Spirit person or people inside of your body.

Eph. 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the GIFT OF Christ.

2Tim. 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift OF God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

Heb. 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and GIFTS of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?


The Book of Jubilees, Chapter One reads:

http://www.piney.com/ApocJubileeBook.html

The Views of the Jews:
And the Lord said unto Moses: 'I know their contrariness and their thoughts and their stiffneckedness, and they will not be obedient till they confess

23 their own sin and the sin of their fathers. And after this they will turn to Me in all uprightness and with all (their) heart and with all (their) soul,

and I will circumcise the foreskin of their heart [baptism] and the foreskin of the heart of their seed,
and I will create IN them A holy spirit,
and I will cleanse them SO THAT they shall not turn away from Me from that day unto eternity.

24 And their souls will cleave to Me and to all My commandments, and they will fulfil My
25 commandments, and I will be their Father and they shall be My children.

And they all shall be called children of the living God, and every angel and every spirit shall know, yea, they shall know that these are My children, and that I am their Father in uprightness and righteousness, and that

26 I love them. And do thou write down for thyself all these WORDS which I declare unto thee on this mountain, the first and the last, which shall come to pass in all the divisions of the days in the law and in the testimony and in the weeks and the jubilees unto eternity, until I descend and dwell
27 with them throughout eternity.'


This is exactly what Scripture says since you cannot GIVE a "god person" including the Almighty to live literally in body of bones and blood:

Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD;
.....My SPIRIT that is upon thee,
.....and my WORDS which I have put in thy mouth,
shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed’s seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever


The REST promised by Messiah is defined inclusively and exclusively by the Spirit OF Christ (God's Spirit)

Those who do not SPEAK the prophets and apostles to whom Jesus CERTIFIED the PATTERN have no light in them.

Jesus commanded that we teach and observe what HE has CERTIFIED but DEFINED in the Prophets as the PRE-destiny or PRE-will of God.

Jesus said MY WORDS ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE.

Therefore, anyone who claims that A spirit told them to debunk the Spirit OF Christ or MIND of Christ as the GIFT bestowed WHEN we have A holy spirit or A good conscience or when we are "washed with water INTO the Word or into the School of Christ."

SPIRIT personified is Apollon or Abaddon who is the LEADER of the Locusts which were-are his musical worship team.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.180.96 on Jan 8, 2016 4:50 PM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Tertullian the second to use the trias concept

January 10 2016, 1:25 AM 

Dave said to Donnie:
"The Christian is aware that YOU are trying to change the very Word of God. The Scriptures SAY in Acts 2:38 that we will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit not the gift of A holy spirit.

The Christian also knows that that YOU are shortchanging yourself when you don'accept that gift, but as for US Christians, we gladly accept the gift. What is the gift of the Holy Spirit? If you want varied opinion, then there is your conundrum. Stick to what you know.


Question(s) for Dave regarding Acts 2:38--

1. When one repents and is baptized, does he receive: (a) forgiveness of sins and (b) the "Holy Ghost" as the gift?
---------------------- or -----------------------
2. When one repents and is baptized, does he receive: (a) forgiveness of sins and (b) the spirit of holiness [purity, being refreshed, a clear conscience]?
---------------------- or -----------------------
3. When one repents and is baptized, does he receive: (a) forgiveness of sins and (b) _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____?


For those who adhere to the Trinity Creed: --

1. What is "the gift of the Holy Ghost"? _____ _____ _____ _____ _____
2. Is the "Holy Ghost" the gift? _____ _____ _____ _____ _____
3. Why is Jesus Christ not "the gift"? _____ _____ _____ _____ _____
4. Why is God the Father not "the gift"? _____ _____ _____ _____ _____
5. When the "Holy Ghost" is received, does one he become Charismatic? _____ _____
6. What does one expect when the "Holy Ghost" is received? _____ _____ _____
7. When you (Dave) received the "Holy Ghost," what did you experience? _____ _____



_______________________

Edited to emphasize the questions for those who believe the Trinity doctrine. [d.c.]


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 23.127.32.146 on Jan 10, 2016 2:12 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Tertullian the second to use the trias concept

January 10 2016, 3:15 PM 

If people want to believe that Jesus WAS God because the Word was God made known in the flesh, We need to repeat that the Greek pagans believed that Hermes (Mercury, Kairos) was the AGENT between the people and their Gods.

However, the Greek LOGOS or LATIN VERBUM understood by the literate classes was NEVER a person which means a PEOPLE by definition of LU and a few others.

Verbum is That which is spoken or said; cf. Goth. vaurd; Germ. Wort; Engl. word, a word; plur., words, expressions, language, discourse, conversation, etc. (cf.: vox, vocabulum). translation of LOGOS

You are left with Jesus being the LOGOS which includes SPEAK words OPPOSITE to ODE words: it excludes expressing one's own opinions (as with Jesus), singing, playing instruments or any kind of visual arts outlawed as self-pleasure in Romans 15:1 SO THAT "you can use one mind and one mouth to speak that which is written for our learning.

So LOGOS was never a member of the god family. The Historic trinity writers knew that the WORD or that which God SPEAKS is His Son whereas Jesus was the son of David after the flesh.

In the same way, Spirit or Spiritus in Latin speaks of Apollon or Abaddon and the worship of the starry host. The SERVICE to the Sun god, Apollo, by the Levites is called HARD BONDAGE.

Spirit in Hebrew and Greek by the literate classes (excluded religion actors or parasites) never defines a PERSON but the Mind or Mental disposition of that person.

Latin: no article accipietis donum Sancti Spiritus

Accipio to take a person or thing TO oneself
1. To hear, to perceive, to observe, to learn (cf. opp. do = I give in words, i. e. I say): hoc simul accipe dictum, Hence very freq. in the histt., to get or receive intelligence of any thing, to learn:
2. To comprehend or understand any thing communicated:
3. With the accessory idea of judging, to take a thing thus or thus, to interpret or explain

In the CORDE or heart Pllautus Casina 22: MYRRHINA
Hah! What is it? Prithee, repeat that same again; for, on my word, I don't in MY MIND sufficiently comprehend your complaints.


ACCEPT in Greek is Lambano b. apprehend with the mind, understand, “phreni l. ton logon” Hdt.9.10; “noō” Id.3.41; “tē dianoia” 9. apprehend by the senses, b. [select] apprehend with the mind, understand, “phreni l. ton logon” Hdt.9.10; “


Gift or Donum is a Gift brought to a Deity or person: Jesus said MY WORDS are SPIRIT and LIGHT. The Gift of A holy spirit requests that God give you A good consciousness or a CO-PERCEPTION when you are SAVED BY BAPTISM. Here, saved is TO and FROM something: a person whom God speaks to is SAFE FROM the Ephesian corruption defined in the beginning of Ephesians 2.

Santio means something MADE sacred: The Spirit or MIND of God does not need to be MADE sacred.

OUR UNholy minds or spirit is made A HOLY mind or spirit which means that we can APPREHEND the Word of God. No one played the harps of David in Revelation they APPREHENDED the harp of God often used to god "playing" the Minds.

That is why NONE of the ex-churches we have discussed is A Church of Christ which is A school of Christ commanded to teach what HE commanded to be taught and observed. I believe that without exception the CM-discussed churches of Christ have changed the sign or hoped to change the sign (locally) and have repudiated everything taught by churches of Christ except THE LAW OF SINGING and the LAW OF FLEECING.


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Tertullian the second to use the trias concept

January 10 2016, 3:36 PM 

Dave, don't miss the questions above related to Acts 2:38 and the part that mentions "the gift" of "the Holy Ghost" -- which Trinitarians have designated as "God" Person No. 3.

Bill, feel free to chime in with your "Person/Being" arguments. For example, is the "Holy Ghost/Spirit" also ONE PERSON jointly with God and Jesus [your claim]?

 
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Dave
(no login)
24.31.14.205

Speak That which is Written

January 10 2016, 4:38 PM 

Speak that which is written, not what Ken and Donnie conjures up in their minds.

Does the Scriptures say "the gift OF the Holy Spirit' or as YOU and KEN claim "the gift of A holy spirit?"

THIS...is living and factual proof that you two DO NOT adhere to the very Word of God.

So call it a Trinity approach to your attack on and about the Scriptures.


If nothing else, I do appreciate you two allowing me to continue to post here. It gives everyone coming here a chance to make their own decisions and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you two do NOT adhere to the Truth.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Speak That which is Written

January 10 2016, 5:05 PM 

I just READ the text posted above:

Latin Receiving is:: no article accipietis donum Sancti Spiritus

Accipio to take a person or thing TO oneself
1. To hear, to perceive, to observe, to learn (cf. opp. do = I give in words, i. e. I say): hoc simul accipe dictum, Hence very freq. in the histt., to get or receive intelligence of any thing, to learn:
2. To comprehend or understand any thing communicated:
3. With the accessory idea of judging, to take a thing thus or thus, to interpret or explain


In the CORDE or heart Pllautus Casina 22: MYRRHINA
Hah! What is it? Prithee, repeat that same again; for, on my word, I don't in MY MIND sufficiently comprehend your complaints.

ACCEPT in Greek is Lambano b. apprehend with the mind, understand, “phreni l. ton logon” Hdt.9.10; “noō” Id.3.41; “tē dianoia” 9. apprehend by the senses, b. [select] apprehend with the mind, understand, “phreni l. ton logon” Hdt.9.10; “

 
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Dave
(no login)
24.31.14.205

Same Story Different Day

January 10 2016, 9:38 PM 

No complaint here other than complete worthlessness covered with human skin, breathing, with a heart beat, taking up valuable space on planet earth.

Other than that, no complaints.

Prithee indeed.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Speak That which is Written

January 10 2016, 5:31 PM 

Dave, regardless of what other statements you post, I would appreciate you taking the time to answer those specific questions above. Bill detests numbered questions and ignores them, but at least I've known you to respond to certain numbered questions, among several questions.

BTW, I do not attack the Scriptures. But I disagree with Trinity adherents when they present "scriptures" that do not prove the Trinity dogma.

Those questions are numbered for reference purposes.

 
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Bill
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74.179.63.142

Re: Speak That which is Written

January 11 2016, 9:37 AM 

Let's just say that I ignore "questions" from megalomaniacal fanatics. LOL happy.gif

 
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Dave
(no login)
24.31.14.205

Re: Speak That which is Written

January 11 2016, 7:49 PM 

This coming from William (Bill) the narcissist with a brain preoccupied by dolls and women's underwear.

 
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Bill
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74.179.63.142

Re: Speak That which is Written

January 12 2016, 1:10 AM 

Dave, you're a real riot. Do you ever wonder what life would be like if you’d had enough oxygen at birth? happy.gif

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

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The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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