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Is Christ, Who Is the IMAGE OF God, God????????

December 12 2015 at 3:02 AM
Donnie Cruz  (Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
from IP address 23.127.32.146

Is the "Image of God" = God????????

Is Christ, Who Is the IMAGE OF God, God????????

The mainstream teaching in Catholic and Protestant Churches is in one-substance Trinity and that Jesus Christ is God. Where and how did this doctrine originate?

Consider the historical background of the Trinity:
  • Abraham did not know about or worship "God the Son."
  • Moses did not know about or worship "God the Son."
  • God's followers in Old Testament times worshipped only the God of Abraham.
  • The pagan trinity originated with Babylon.
  • The pagan trinity was passed on to most of the religions of the world.
  • Polytheistic trinitarianism (multiple gods) was intertwined with Greek religion and philosophy.
  • For 300 years Christians knew nothing about the trinity.
  • Some 300 years after Christ, the pagan trinity with Greek-Roman influences in Christians.
  • "God the Son" is Babylonian paganism and mythology grafted into Chrisitanity.
  • The Council of Nicea 325, emperor Constantine forced the minority opinion of the trinity. (First Council)
  • The Council of Nicea 325 said that "Jesus Christ is God." (First Council)
  • The Council of Constantinople 381 said that "the Holy Spirit is God." (First Council)
  • The Council of Ephesus 431 said that "human beings are totally depraved."
  • The Council of Chalcedon 451 said that "Jesus Christ is both man and God."
  • The Council of Constantinople 553 condemned the errors of Origen; it further confirmed the first 4 general councils (Nicea, Constantinople, Ephesus, especially that of Chalcedon [that "Jesus Christ is both man and God"]) (Second Council)
  • The Council of Constantinople 680-681 put an end to Monothelitism by defining two wills in Christ, the Divine and the human, as two distinct principles of operation. (Third Council)

Sounds like a "theory of evolution" to me.

One verse to consider is: Christ is "the image of God" (II Corinthians 4:4). Why change the truth:

---------- FROM: ------- Christ IS "THE IMAGE OF GOD"
---------- TO: --------- Christ IS GOD?


Another verse to consider is: the Father's dear Son is "THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD" (Colossians 1:13-15). Why change the truth:

---------- FROM: ------- Christ IS "THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD"
---------- TO: --------- Christ IS GOD?


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 23.127.32.146 on Jan 6, 2016 3:30 AM


 
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AuthorReply
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Is the 'Image of God' = God????????

December 12 2015, 1:48 PM 

The key false teachers have their roots and even support from the Disciples of Christ for theology and the NACC for instrumental music. There is no historic trinity writings I am aware of that attempts a Biblical defense.

The wing of churches of Christ just collect a list of what the SPIRIT does without grasping that the Spirit is The Mind OF God or OF Christ. We all do and think what OUR spirit thinks.

Richard Hamm then the president of the Disciples denomination said that they built upon four foundations:

The first is Scripture, which for Christians means, of course, the Holy Bible (which is to say the whole Bible: the Hebrew and Christian testaments).

The second is reason and the third is experience. We Disciples are quite appreciative of these sources. Our movement was born within the philosophical context of John Locke who said that truth can be known through reason tempered with experience.
THAT'S A LIE.

In this secular age in which we live, I'm afraid that many of us have increasingly depended on these two sources alone, but reason and experience are two valuable sources for understanding God.

The fourth is tradition. The Church has learned some things in the past two thousand years (that's right, the Church learned some things even before Alexander Campbell!). By looking to the Church's tradition (its history, its declarations, its collective wisdom) one can learn much about the nature of God and the nature of humankind. As the sage has said, one who does not learn history is doomed to repeat it. Studying the church's tradition is a way for us to learn some things the easy way! The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Living God, uses these four sources of revelation to teach us who God is and who we are.


Foster and Allen followed by men on their CAREER PATH of being SIMONIZED, mock and mock and mock at Churches of Christ as IGNORING HISTORY or the collective learning of their fellow theologians. Too bad, too sad, recorded history as well as Scripture is on the side of Churches of Christ in the key TROUBLE ZONES used to sow discord.

John Calvin was especially opposed to church councils (gatherings at ACU, Pepperdine, LU etc) as originators and dispensers of the knowledge.

Keith D. Stanglin at Hardin Says. Autonomous congregational leadership. There is a freedom for churches to follow their own conscience with respect to God’s Word.

He means that the Senior Pastor having Cuckold the defrocked pastors have the liberty to IMPOSE and you have the liberty often stated: "Get over it or get out."

As John Mark Hick says: he doesn't ignore the Bible but he depends on theology. Unfortunately "theology" is a word applied only to Apollon-Abaddon as the only personified SPIRITUS and the leader of the "Muses" or "Locusts" now active in separating the sheep from the goats.




    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.180.96 on Dec 13, 2015 2:29 PM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Is the 'Image of God' = God????????

December 12 2015, 10:46 PM 

Ken,

My intended main focus was to show readers the early history of the Trinity Creed and (with that knowledge in turn) relate to the creed man's assumption "that Jesus Christ is God." And to maintain the discussion within the topic's scope, i.e., to prove or disprove the assumption "that Jesus Christ is God."

However, it is noteworthy that you presented a bit of the Disciples of Christ denomination's own history. The 4 "foundations" (1. Scripture; 2. reason; 3. experience; 4. tradition) espoused by Richard Hamm of that denomination are more dangerous than that of the Roman Catholic Church's 2 foundations: (1. Scripture; 2. tradition). Both cases are strongly in opposition to what the Holy Scripture itself teaches and to what the Restoration Movement stressed: "We speak where the Bible speaks...."

I agree with John Calvin in this respect: when he was especially opposed to church councils. The modern-day NACC "councils" and those "gatherings" at Pepperdine, ACU, LU with the intent to rewrite the Restoration Movement history and to restructure the church that Christ established do not conform to the simplicity of the gospel of Christ.

If would be nice if you could provide historical information related to the very popular "Trinity" doctrine past the Council of Chalcedon (451 A.D.) during which it was officially declared "that Jesus Christ is both man and God." There are those among us who get very angry and feel attacked when we present the truth that the Scripture has revealed NOTHING about Jesus Christ, the Son of God, being God.

It may be difficult to find information in addition to the following well-established historical record:

(1) "That Jesus Christ is God" --------------- (the council of Nicea: 325 A.D.);
(2) "That the Holy Spirit is God" ------------ (the council of Constantinople: 381 A.D.);
(3) "That Jesus Christ is both man and God --- (the council of Chalcedon: 451 A.D.).

All of the above [the councils] -- approved by the Roman Catholic Church and the papacy -- reminds me of our modern political advertisements, e.g.: "I am Hillary 'Rodman' Clinton: I approve this message." happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Is the 'Image of God' = God????????

December 12 2015, 11:13 PM 

The authority or lack of it does not rest on new inspired documents nor "visions."

The views of theologians are mostly peer derived.
The official pronouncements will be found in councils or synods: these, too, will be contests between various views.

http://catholic-resources.org/John/Patristics-Trinity.html

Where the history meets the little people, you might look at the various confessions which have not changed too much.

Defacto church councils happen at "workshops" or other gatherings where the ACCEPTED views are promoted with no need to use Scripture.

I am at a loss for any very recent councils although I have noticed that certain groups have changed their views.

I have a list of historical writers and their view: these are almost always perverted by lifting isolated passages.



553 AD Council of Constantinople

553 AD Council of Constantinople II "If anyone does not confess that there are two generations of the Word of God, one from the Father before all ages, without time and incorporeally, the other in the last days when the same came down from heaven and was incarnate . . . let such a one be anathema" (Anathemas Concerning the Three Chapters, canon 2).

1200 AD The Athanasian Creed

1200 AD The Athanasian Creed "The Father is not made nor created nor begotten by anyone. The Son is from the Father alone, not made or created, but begotten. . . . Let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the Incarnation . . . He is God begotten of the substance of the Father before time, and he is man born of the substance of his mother in time. . . . This is the Catholic faith; unless everyone believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved" (Athanasian Creed).

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Is the 'Image of God' = God????????

December 13 2015, 8:18 PM 

We will add the Second Council of Constantinople 553 A.D. to the initial list above.

We will also include The Athanasian Creed although it is not mentioned in any records of the ecumenical councils. The creed involves the Nicean doctrine of the Trinity nonetheless.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Is Christ, Who Is the IMAGE OF God, God????????

December 13 2015, 9:12 PM 

We will be reviewing the following information derived from one of the major sources of doctrines and teachings of the Roman Catholic Church [and non-Italian as well]. We will determine the key clauses and expressions to be added to our list in the initial post. (Let’s note those individuals who did not conform to the councils’ doctrines and teachings—they were the ones persecuted or excommunicated. Perhaps, someone might do research on the FIRST POPE designated from among the bishops of the eventual Roman Catholic Church, and when the Christian Church officially became the “Roman Catholic Church.” Wonder what “cathen” is? It is “Catholic Encyclopedia.”)

SOURCE: http://www.newadvent.org/library/almanac_14388a.htm


I. FIRST COUNCIL OF NICAEA
Year: 325
Summary: The Council of Nicaea lasted two months and twelve days. Three hundred and eighteen bishops were present. Hosius, Bishop of Cordova, assisted as legate of Pope Sylvester. The Emperor Constantine was also present. To this council we owe the Nicene Creed, defining against Arius the true Divinity of the Son of God (homoousios), and the fixing of the date for keeping Easter (against the Quartodecimans).
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm

II. FIRST COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE
Year: 381
Summary: The First General Council of Constantinople, under Pope Damasus and the Emperor Theodosius I, was attended by 150 bishops. It was directed against the followers of Macedonius, who impugned the Divinity of the Holy Ghost. To the above-mentioned Nicene Creed it added the clauses referring to the Holy Ghost (qui simul adoratur) and all that follows to the end.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/04308a.htm

III. COUNCIL OF EPHESUS
Year: 431
Summary: The Council of Ephesus, of more than 200 bishops, presided over by St. Cyril of Alexandria representing Pope Celestine I, defined the true personal unity of Christ, declared Mary the Mother of God theotokos) against Nestorius, Bishop of Constantinople, and renewed the condemnation of Pelagius.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/05491a.htm

IV. COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON
Year: 451
Summary: The Council of Chalcedon -- 150 bishops under Pope Leo the Great and the Emperor Marcian -- defined the two natures (Divine and human) in Christ against Eutyches, who was excommunicated.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/03555a.htm

V. SECOND COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE
Year: 553
Summary: The Second General Council of Constantinople, of 165 bishops under Pope Vigilius and Emperor Justinian I, condemned the errors of Origen and certain writings (The Three Chapters) of Theodoret, of Theodore, Bishop of Mopsuestia and of Ibas, Bishop of Edessa; it further confirmed the first four general councils, especially that of Chalcedon whose authority was contested by some heretics.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/04308b.htm

VI. THIRD COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE
Years: 680-681
Summary: The Third General Council of Constantinople, under Pope Agatho and the Emperor Constantine Pogonatus, was attended by the Patriarchs of Constantinople and of Antioch, 174 bishops, and the emperor. It put an end to Monothelitism by defining two wills in Christ, the Divine and the human, as two distinct principles of operation. It anathematized Sergius, Pyrrhus, Paul, Macarius, and all their followers.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/04310a.htm

VII. SECOND COUNCIL OF NICAEA
Year: 787
Summary: The Second Council of Nicaea was convoked by Emperor Constantine VI and his mother Irene, under Pope Adrian I, and was presided over by the legates of Pope Adrian; it regulated the veneration of holy images. Between 300 and 367 bishops assisted.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/11045a.htm


 
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Rocky
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: Is Christ, Who Is the IMAGE OF God, God????????

December 14 2015, 9:29 AM 



Why don't Donnie and Ken just make their own bible? happy.gif


[linked image]

[linked image]

[linked image]





 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Is Christ, Who Is the IMAGE OF God, God????????

December 15 2015, 1:29 AM 

Rocky,

Did you even bother to read and STUDY the passages quoted in the initial post? I used the King James Version of 1611. Here they are again:

II Corinthians 4:4 -- "... the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God...."

Colossians 1:12-15 -- "... the Father ... hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature."


There's the truth.

We ought to really study God's truth with open minds. We gain nothing from defending the pagan-influenced, Catholic-invented Trinity Creed which depended so much upon the emperor Constantine and the Catholic bishops and popes and their ecumenical councils which persecuted and excommunicated those who opposed their teachings.

Maybe we should allow a third-grader to explain or define for us the expression: "the image OF." Here's a great example: The daughter is the image of her mother. A third-grader would know the resemblance between them, but not that the daughter is the mother.



 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Is Christ, Who Is the IMAGE OF God, God????????

December 15 2015, 12:45 PM 

APT elders must and will "teach that which has been taught."

We will TEACH that which is written for our learning including psalms (teaching), hymns and spiritual songs. We will ODE and PSALLO in our heart.

Christ said of those who do not teach the Word "THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM." Jesus told the APT elders to eject or reprove those who do NOT speak that which is written: Jesus said that would be a mark of the sons of the Devil.

In short, the direct command of the kerusso-presbyter-herald is to CUT-AND-PASTE.

The World or Kosmos as the stated authority for the WORD as the trinity cannot see or hear the WORD and therefore have to make up their own script for the play acting. I am working on Anathanasius whose FLAWED and largely rejected TRINITY was forcedby Constantine: it worked because he was the first one to pay unwashed pagan bishops to dominate over the Poor Priests who thought they belonged to the Church OF Christ and not OF senior pastor having cuckold the unAPT elders.

Pity the theologians (explainers of Apollon-Abaddon) who were born with a paper shreder instead of a "spirit-mind."



 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Athanasius the ACCEPTED VIEW

December 15 2015, 2:48 PM 

Historic scholars never say what the neo scholars believe having gained Word Selling Certificates by being forced to read the books the professor writers they demand. Most early writers say "on the one hand but on the other hand." Theological Institutions rarely bother to read BOTH HANDS.

The accepted trinity and the ABSOLUTE folly of trinitarians-- having invaded once faithful colleges-- demands that God's WORD or LOGOS be a Living Person and with God being literally inside the body of Jesus of Nazareth. The historic trinitarians do not bother to read Scripture or they would heard Jesus say that He SPEAKS only what the ONE GOD THE FATHER breathes (spirit) into Him. He never speaks on His own and marks that as a son of the Devil rather than God. Jesus said that His Words or what He spoke was SPIRIT and LIFE.

The Apostates also worship the STARRY HOST or the Living Universe when they adopt the Civil-Military-Clergy patterned by the Jacob-cursed and God-Abandoned LEVITES. Even old David wanted to worship his god in the FIRMAMENT.

[linked image]

 
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Rocky
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108.230.196.85

King David - A Man After God's Own Heart

December 15 2015, 5:44 PM 



I'm sure King David will be the first cut (deletion) in the Cruz-Sublett bible. Anyone on what is next?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Jesus Christ (NOT God the Father) is 'of the seed of David'

December 15 2015, 6:31 PM 

Rocky,

I've heard this before, and I completely agree with it:

"The fundamental truth of the Bible is that God is One. Any teaching that in any way appears to deviate from or undermime this profound truth must be very firmly substantiated. The doctrine of the Trinity pretends to be such a teaching, yet it is entirely absent from the entire Old Testament. This doesn't make sense."

[How many times have I mentioned that God's followers in the O.T. times did not worship "three-Gods-in-one"? Also the truth remains that the New Testament teaches none of that, either. Catholicism does and Protestantism concurs.]

Yes, you made reference to David, "a man after mine own heart" (Acts 13:22). The following verse (13:23) mentions that God, according to His promise, would raise a Savior, Jesus, "of this man's seed." Thus, "the seed of David" (John 7:42; Romans 1:3; II Tim. 2:8).

What does Jesus Christ "of the seed of David" mean to you? Is "God the Father" of the seed of David? I think NOT.

There's no need to create another Bible.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Jesus Christ (NOT God the Father) is 'of the seed of David'

December 16 2015, 11:21 PM 

Here's the Trinity's fallacious logic:

(1) Jesus Christ is of the seed of David;
(2) Jesus Christ is God;
(3) Therefore, God is of the seed of David.


How offensive and insulting to God the Father in heaven, the only true God, to be of the seed of David!!!!!

 
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David-Rocky-diversion
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: King David - A Man After God's Own Heart

December 15 2015, 7:11 PM 

Does this thread need Infiltrate and Divert??

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: King David - A Man After God's Own Heart

December 15 2015, 7:59 PM 

Because of the "freedom of speech," I think we should allow posters to author their own messages. (I doubt that Dave and Rocky both together have the intent to infiltrate and divert -- individually maybe, but not as a collaboration effort.)

Diverting? Easy to do. It happens all the time -- the expected nature of a religious discussion forum. But it can be redirected to a worthwhile "within topic" discussion.

Infiltrating? That's allowed. And it's not a problem so long as we have the spiritual sword, "the word of God" (Ephesians 6:17). The "word of God" is mentioned about 40 more times in the New Testament. That's definitely a plus when infiltration occurs.

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb. 4:12).


 
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Rocky
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108.230.196.85

God Help Us!

December 15 2015, 8:14 PM 


The next chop job will be on God's GRACE. The Crew-Sublett bible will reject "Grace". This is so SAD!

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: God Help Us! (Getting emotional here?)

December 15 2015, 8:27 PM 

Rocky,

Uh-oh. A diversion from the topic. But that's OK. Let the Scripture speak.

God's grace? No, it's not an issue.

Abuse and misuse of God's grace? Yes, it is an issue. That's what's sad.

A good example of abuse of God's grace: "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" (Romans 6:1, KJV)

Man's idea is that God's grace forgives sin: unconditionally -- instead of the blood of Christ.

 
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Rocky
(no login)
108.230.196.85

God Help Us!

December 15 2015, 8:34 PM 

The Crew-Sublett bible would have no singing. The "SINGING" Verses would all be changed to "speak" verses. So sad ...The Church of Christ is known for their SINGING. God Help Us!


===========================

Off topic. Submit a separate thread for that.

You forgot this scripture: "SPEAKING to yourselves IN psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" (Ephesians 5:19).

Key expressions:

(1) SPEAKING TO YOURSELVES IN ... HYMNS....
(2) SINGING IN YOUR HEART TO THE LORD.

Now, just who is CHANGING the Scripture????

The church of Christ is just fine. The problem occurs when musical performers are present in the gathering.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 23.127.32.146 on Dec 15, 2015 8:58 PM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: God Help Us! (It's All in the Bible)

December 15 2015, 8:40 PM 

You can divert from the topic all you want. And we may entertain the diversion for a while ... up to a point. Regardless, there are ways to redirect any diversion to a fruitful discussion of the topic. The Holy Scripture is replete with the truth to dispel the Catholic-ordained Trinity Creed. More scriptures to follow for the real, serious Bible students (disciples/learners) to study and learn.

 
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Rocky
(no login)
108.230.196.85

The Holy Spirit

December 16 2015, 5:13 AM 


The Cruz-Sublett bible will remove any reference to "The Holy Spirit". Limited use of "a holy spirit" will be used. This one really bothers me as I am concerned about their souls.

 
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