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'The God of Jesus Christ' (Scriptures) -- Does Jesus Have a God?

December 31 2015 at 2:01 AM
Donnie Cruz  (Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
from IP address 23.127.32.146

Let not the subject of this thread nor the scriptures quoted below offend you. Instead, let this be a serious study of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13; Luke 20:37; Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:26) and the God of Jesus Christ (please read and study some of many references below).

The purpose of this study is to show what the Scripture has revealed (not in secrecy) that Jesus himself has a God just like the rest of us. (Of course, it was God who made Jesus both Lord and Christ [Acts 2:36]. We also know that Jesus Christ is "the image of God" [II Cor. 4:4].)


  1. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Matt. 27:46)

  2. And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Mark 15:34)

  3. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17)

  4. So that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Rom. 15:6, NIV)

  5. Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort (II Cor. 1:3, NIV, etc.)

  6. The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not. (II Cor. 11:31)

  7. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (Eph. 1:3)

  8. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. (Eph. 1:17, NIV, etc.)

  9. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (I Peter 1:3)

  10. And from Jesus Christ who ... washed us from our sins in his own blood ... and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. (Rev. 1:5,6; NIV, etc.)

  11. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. (Rev. 3:12)


Isn't this a fair, sensical question: How can Jesus “be God” and “have a God” at the same time?

The serious Bible student would also ask why Jesus still says "my God" in Revelation 3:12, considering: after his death, resurrection and ascension when Jesus has all authority in heaven and on earth, and seated at the right hand of God!!!


_____________________________

Edited from an unordered list to a numbered list of 11 verses most of which truly indicate:

(1) The God
(2) and [conjunction]
(3) Father
(4) OF [preposition]
(5) our Lord Jesus Christ.

It can't be any more clear and precise than that!!!
[d.c.]


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 23.127.32.146 on Feb 22, 2016 1:12 AM


 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

December 31 2015, 12:34 PM 

As with most false teachings, men seem to be able to ignore the dozens of passages which REFUTES their Self-Will. They are left with obscure passages which they have to redefine or be proven NOT to be equal with Jesus as Authoritative Teacher as claimed by one of our recent angels of blight.

1Th. 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus,
unto the church of the Thessalonians
.....which is IN God [Theos] the Father
.....and IN the Lord [Kurios] Jesus Christ:


All of Scripture defines God as the Father (Originator, Teacher)
And defines Jesus as our LORD.
That excludes Jesus as being a PART of Whom we call GOD
Or we believe the writers did not know how to read.

Neither Lord nor Christ are "God" words. Christ as Messiah was prophesied to be of the seed (sperm) of Abraham in the singular sense to finally bring all blessings religionists ware Purpose Driven to Steal.

Jesus of Nazareth was not BORN Lord and Christ.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
.....that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified,
.....both Lord and Christ.


Jesus as Christ would be Prophet, Priest and King: His reign began when God gave Him that authority and it will end when death is finally destroyed when Jesus returns and GIVES BACK any authority.

Grace be unto you, and peace,
.....from GOD OUR Father,
.....AND
.....the LORD Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 1:3

AND means that Jesus Christ is NOT God our Father.

1Th. 1:3ASV Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love,
and patience of hope
.....in our Lord Jesus Christ,
.....before our God and Father;

 
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Bill
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Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

December 31 2015, 2:04 PM 

1 Cor. 1:3 states: "Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ" (KJV).

There, God is the Father and Jesus is the Lord.

Then Rev. 19:1b states: "Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God" (KJV).

There, God is the Lord.

Rev. 19:6b states, "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth" (KJV).

Again, God is the Lord.

So the New Testament says that Jesus is the Lord and also that God is the Lord.

That, of course, fits with Phil. 2:6, which refers to Jesus: "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (KJV).

Since the New Testament states that God is the Lord and Jesus is the Lord, then it follows that God and Jesus are one and the same.

 
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Donnie Cruz
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Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

December 31 2015, 5:14 PM 

(1) I edited the initial post for the benefit of those who are interested in counting the number of verses [and there are at least 11] that support the truth that God is "the God and Father" OF our Lord Jesus Christ. You seem to be rejecting or ignoring those 11 verses. Why? Why not?

(2) You quoted I Corinthians 1:3 -- "Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ." Excellent. Thanks. But what does the conjunction "and" mean to you? 1 and 1 = 1? Or, 1 and 1 = 2? Are you saying: "God the Father IS Jesus Christ"? I hope NOT.

(3) Yes, both "the Lord God" and "the Lord Jesus Christ" are in the Scripture. And so is "the lord of the vineyard." And so is "the lord of the servants." But "God" does not mean "lord" or vice versa. Do you know who made Jesus both Lord and Christ? God, of course (Acts 2:36).

(4) Philippians 2:6. How much easier and simpler the writer could have said: "Jesus is God." But nope! It does NOT say that Jesus is God!!!!

 
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Bill
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Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

December 31 2015, 8:14 PM 

The Scripture says that Jesus is Lord and that God is Lord.

The New Testament need not be restricted to saying "Jesus is God" to show us that Jesus is indeed God. The New Testament has other ways of saying it. We've just seen examples from 1 Corinthians and Rev. 19, which link God and Jesus together as the Lord.

When Satan tempted Jesus, "Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" (Matt. 4:7). Jesus was the One whom Satan tempted, yet He told Satan not to tempt the Lord God. If Jesus had not been God, he would not have said that.

The phrase "Lord Jesus" is found in 179 verses restricted to the New Testament, whereas the phrase "Lord God" is found in 1,595 verses in both Testaments.

There is only one Lord: "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29).

There is only one Lord. Therefore, since the Bible refers to "Lord Jesus" and "Lord God"," then that can only mean one thing (unless the Bible contradicts itself): God and Jesus are one and the same Divine Being.

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

December 31 2015, 11:19 PM 

(5) You continue to reject several passages that specifically and unequivocally state: "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." Why is that? It's God's truth: (a) Jesus Christ has a Father; (b) Jesus Christ has a God. Let's not change the scripture to conform to man's thinking like yours, alright?

(6) You are the one doing the linking between God and Jesus as one Lord. Jesus, the Son of God, was not Lord until God made him both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36). "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." Somehow you have this idea that Jesus made himself Lord. The truth is that God was the One who made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

(7) You're correct that "Lord Jesus" is found 179 times in the New Testament. You have one more search remaining: How many times is "Lord Jesus" found in the Old Testament, if you claim that Jesus is "from the beginning." When you find a single reference to "Lord Jesus" in the O.T., let me know. Again, "lord" ("kurios") is not the same as "God" ("theos").

(8) Deut. 6:16 states: "Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God...." The "Lord Jesus" was non-existent in the O.T. dispensation. So, Jesus was quoting when he said, "It is written...."; and he was speaking of "the Lord God" -- not of himself as "Lord Jesus." Remember that it was God who made the crucified Jesus both Lord and Christ. So, he said: "... It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." The passage in James 1:13 confirms: "... for God cannot be tempted." Indeed, God cannot be tempted!!! But Jesus was tempted, although he did not yield to the temptation.

(9) Man's conclusion: "God and Jesus are one and the same Divine Being."

(10) The various salutations from all the epistles (Romans, I Corinthians, II Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, and the rest) prove otherwise and clearly indicate two separate beings:

-- Grace to you and peace from God our Father, AND the Lord Jesus Christ. (Romans)
-- Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ. (I Corinthians)
-- Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ. (II Corinthians)
-- Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, AND from our Lord Jesus Christ. (Galatians)
-- Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ. (Ephesians)
-- Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ. (Philippians)
-- Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ. (Colossians)
-- ... Is that enough from the epistles?

 
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Bill
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74.179.15.94

Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

December 31 2015, 11:53 PM 

You continue to reject passages that unequivocally link God and Jesus together as one Lord. Since the Scriptures say that Jesus is Lord or Lord Jesus and that God is also Lord or Lord God, they both cannot be independent Lords, since the Scriptures say there is only one Lord. So, God and Jesus MUST be the same. There is no other way around it. Jesus as the Son of God, God as the Father, Jesus as Lord, God as Lord -- all designations for the Same. ONE. Divine. Being.

Happy New Year!


 
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Donnie Cruz
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23.127.32.146

Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

January 1 2016, 1:40 AM 

No, I reject your rejection of the numerous passages [count them again] that unequivocally state "the God and Father of Jesus Christ."

So, you did not find "Lord Jesus" in the Old Testament? I didn't think you would.

So, when Jesus said, "It is written..." you did not understand that he was QUOTING scripture: "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" in reference to God? He was not quoting scripture about himself. (11) confirms that -- you will not find "Lord Jesus" in the O.T.

I shouldn't be the one to remind you that you do not comprehend the meaning of the conjunction "and"; but I should now.

Happy New Year!!!

 
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Bill
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74.179.15.94

Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

January 1 2016, 2:21 AM 

Yes, when Jesus rebuked Satan for tempting Him, he quoted Scripture, but He used that Scripture to refer to Himself as God. Jesus often quoted from the Old Testament, because that was the only Scripture available in His day. The New Testament had not yet been written. So, when Satan tempted Jesus and Jesus said with Scripture not to tempt God, why would Jesus say that if He were not God? If Jesus were not God, He would have simply said something like, "Do not tempt me, Satan." Instead, Jesus used Scripture to tell Satan that it was wrong to tempt Him, because Satan knew that Jesus was God.

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

January 1 2016, 2:52 AM 

Yes, when Jesus rebuked Satan for tempting Him, he quoted Scripture [correct], but He used that Scripture to refer to Himself as God [speculation]. Jesus often quoted from the Old Testament, because that was the only Scripture available in His day [correct]. The New Testament had not yet been written [correct]. So, when Satan tempted Jesus and Jesus said with Scripture not to tempt God [correct], why would Jesus say that if He were not God [assumption]? If Jesus were not God, He would have simply said something like, "Do not tempt me, Satan." [That's what you wanted the Scripture to say.] Instead, Jesus used Scripture [correct] to tell Satan that it was wrong to tempt Him, because Satan knew that Jesus was God [incorrect; Satan knew he was "the Son of God" -- check the passage].

 
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Ken Sublett
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184.63.180.96

Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

December 31 2015, 6:17 PM 

The Bible says that the Rock was Christ, but a rock is not Christ.

God is the RULER of the World but He MADE Jesus of NAZARETH To Be Lord over His earthly reign. Jesus will even cease to be lord so that one given lordship for a time is NOT God

1Cor. 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Cor. 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cor. 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Cor. 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet.
.....But when he saith all things are put under him,
.....it is manifest that he is excepted,
.....which did put all things under him.
1Cor. 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him,
.....then shall the Son also himself be subject
.....unto him that put all things under him
.....that God may be all in all.

The Throne has been given up so that Jesus is now subject to the Lord-God

Rev. 22:3 And there shall be no more curse:
.....but the throne of God
.....AND
.....of the Lamb shall be in it;
.....and his servants shall serve him:

 
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Ken Sublett
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Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

December 31 2015, 9:27 PM 

The phrase "Lord Jesus" is found in 179 verses restricted to the New Testament, whereas the phrase "Lord God" is found in 1,595 verses in both Testaments.

Lord God is never used of Jesus!

Lord and God are reversed in the Greek Translation. There are many gods (elohim) including men as rulers considered as the almighty. However, Jehovah (Lord) is the only TRUE Elohim (god).

Gen. 14:22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom,
.....I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD [Jehovah],
.....the MOST HIGH God [elohim], the possessor of heaven and earth,

Gen. 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine,
.....the LORD [Jehovah] appeared to Abram, and said unto him,
.....I am the Almighty God [El used of any deity h410];
.....walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Gen. 24:3 And I will make thee swear by the LORD,
.....the God of heaven, and the God of the earth,
.....that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites,
.....among whom I dwell:


In Greek God is (Theos) and Lord is (Kurios). The One Theos made Jesus TO BE kurios having the FULL authority of the always-pagan father, mother (spirit) and son. The Voice from heaven made a radical departure: the mother did not produce a daughter but God is the Father of a Son. ALL trinities are built upon the original triple goddes which gave way to permitting an ignorant father and an evil son.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh,
.....that he should give eternal life to as many as thou HAST GIVEN HIM
John 17:3 And this is life eternal,
.....that they might know thee the ONLY true God,
.....AND Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Cor. 8:5 For though there be that are called gods,
.....whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father,
.....OF whom are all things, and we in him;
.....and one Lord Jesus Christ, BY whom are all things, and we by him


Lord AND God are always separated in the NT except in that Revelation passage AFTER Jesus has returned the throne to the One God Almighty.

 
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Ken Sublett
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Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

December 31 2015, 9:37 PM 

When Satan tempted Jesus, "Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" (Matt. 4:7). Jesus was the One whom Satan tempted, yet He told Satan not to tempt the Lord God. If Jesus had not been God, he would not have said that.

Matt. 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Matt. 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God,
.....cast thyself down:
..... for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee:
.....and in their hands they shall bear thee up,
.....lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Matt. 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again,
.....Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Jesus stops all of the human imagination by just quoting Scripture:

Is. 7:12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.


If Ahaz asked then He would be tempting God and not himself. If Jesus asked HE would be tempting the Lord God. He would not be tempting himself if he in fact JUMPTED.

Ex. 17:2 Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?

They would not be tempting Moses nor does Moses think that He is Jehovah as the tempted.

Jesus had no power to fly through the air nor did He believe that He could.The Devil is inviting Jesus to TEST GOD: If Jesus jumped then HE would be tempting the LORD thy God


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.180.96 on Dec 31, 2015 9:43 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

December 31 2015, 10:07 PM 

There is only one Lord: "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29).

The Shema is a primary prayer recited in the synagogues:

Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD OUR God is ONE LORD:
Deut. 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deut. 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:


Jesus identified the Scribes and Pharisees as hypocrites: speakers, singers, instrument players. They knew that if they could get Jesus to DENY the Shema they would have him so trapped that they had a right to have Him executed. Jehovah is the ONE TRUE Elohim. They have many gods (the Jews) but Jehovah is OUR Elohim. Lord-God is the sure way to repudiate the authority of the "gods" people just made up.

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR God is one Lord:


Jesus just said with blinding truth that HE was not but THE Lord is OUR God and there is only ONE JEHOVAH. And no Jew was so ignorant as to make and IDOL thinking that Jehovah was THREE PERSONS about the size of Jesus.

While men bowed to Jesus as physical "worship" Jesus said:

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love THE Lord THY God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.


That does not give room for ANY even token disciple to sing a praise song:

We worship the Father
We worship Jesus
We worship the holy spirit.

Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is NONE OTHER BUT HE.


Denying that father-son relationship, says John, makes one an antichrist. The Scribe says there is NONE (exclusive) OTHER (exclusive) but HE (not they). False teachers gladly say that Jesus Christ was too ignorant not to know that the Scribe was lying and no one understood the truth truth until WE dredged the "trinity" by quoting passages hoping people will not read.

Watched a program today about the Puritans: getting access to the printed Bible suddenly made them aware that they didn't need the clergy: the clergy in turn got as many murdered as possible. The historian noted that Western Civilization was the result of not trusting one person to be our mediator in song and sermon.


 
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Humility
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Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

January 1 2016, 11:10 PM 

Would the discussants please tell me the difference in being God and being divine.

If Jesus is not God, then is he divine?

Are you just saying that God should refer to the Father, and that the son is divine?

Please clarify.

Are you saying that Jesus is just human?

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

January 2 2016, 12:12 AM 

An excellent question!!! Thanks! (I think I've covered this before -- just can't place where I posted it.)

Briefly, we look at the definition of "divine":

"Divine" is commonly defined as: of or relating to a god, especially the Supreme Being; addressed, appropriated, or devoted to God or a god; sacred; proceeding from God or a god; godlike; relating to or coming from God or a god; of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god; etc.

By definition, yes, Jesus is divine. But we must distinguish between the expression "pertaining/relating to" and the word (verb) "is":

-- There are numerous references in Scripture that identify Jesus as "the Son of God," the "mediator," etc.
-- There is not a single reference in Scripture stating (or implying) that Jesus IS God.
-- There are numerous passages (see initial post) that state: "the God and Father" OF Jesus Christ.
-- Yes, God should refer to the Father only: John 6:27; I Cor. 8:6; Gal. 1:1,3; Eph. 6:23; Phil. 2:11; I Thess. 1:1; II Tim. 1:2; Titus 1:4; I Peter 1:2; II Peter 1:17; II John 1:3; Jude 1:1.
-- [We can expound further if necessary]

Yes, Jesus is human: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (I Timothy 2:5).

Yes, Jesus is divine, not because he is God (no scripture for this) but because of the following:

(1) He is "the Son of God" [numerous, numerous references in Scripture;
(2) He was crucified, shed his blood and is our Savior;
(3) He is our mediator as a man (God is not the mediator between God and men; but Jesus is...);
(4) He is sitting at the right hand of God;
(5) There more reasons for his being divine [but I must post this now].

 
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Humility
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Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

January 2 2016, 12:54 AM 

Your explanation is satisfying.

Some were denying that Jesus Christ had come in the flesh in 2 John. Some of the Gnostics were saying that Jesus was just "spirit" and not "flesh."

The belief in the bodily existence of Jesus was referred to as the "teaching of Christ" or "doctrine of Christ."

Most everyone I think are referring to the Father when they use the word "God."

However, is there any place in the Old Testament that refers to God as "the Father"? It is consistent with New Testament writing to refer to the "Father" since there is a "Son."

Offspring of divinity was not considered identical with the source of the offspring in many ancient writings. It was common to refer the Word, or Logos, as an emanation from God.

The Word then is an emanation, so the Spirit could be considered an emanation. There might be some confusion concerning the Holy Spirit as a product of the Word, when Christ Himself is reflected as the Word. John 1.

Would you say that Jesus is the Word, and his moral teachings (Words) are either the vehicle of the Spirit or are the Spirit? I see some overlap between Spirit and Word.

 
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Donnie Cruz
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

January 2 2016, 2:03 AM 

Yes, referring to God as the Father is significant. That should eliminate the misuse of the expression "God the Son" and the expression "God the Holy Spirit." When the Trinity creed declares:

(1) God the Father
(2) God the Son
(3) God the Holy Spirit


... the only scriptural expression of the three listed is "God the Father" -- the passages/references are already mentioned above. There is not a single reference in the entire Bible to the other two.

Speaking of "emanation," this is especially true in regard to the WORD (LOGOS) of God. In the creation event, you will notice in Genesis 1 the number of times "GOD SAID" -- whatever and whenever God SAID or SPOKE, it was an emanation from God ("proceedeth out of the mouth of God"). Since Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 have something in common (i.e., "in the beginning"), I believe that what "GOD SAID" is the LOGOS (the WORD) of God which became flesh.

The coming of the Messiah was only prophesied in the O.T., and the prophecy was fulfilled only 2000 years ago -- the LOGOS (the WORD) of God becoming flesh (John 1:14). Please understand, readers, that the WORD (LOGOS) was in the beginning with the God and "the word" was not "the God" but "of God" or "godlike" based on the proper translation of John 1:1. Simply: it wasn't "God the Father" but rather "the LOGOS (WORD) of God" that became flesh (John 1:14).

You are correct that there is no reference to "God the Father" in the O.T. for the reason you've already given -- the Father-and-the-Son relationship which the book of John clearly explains. The LOGOS (WORD) of God [not God Himself] becoming flesh did not occur in the O.T. period.

In regard to "the Spirit" (by definition of the word "spirit" as "wind, breath, power, mind," etc.), IT was active in the creation event. As "power" Genesis 1:2 clearly specifies -- "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." On the day of Pentecost, we see the power or "wind" as a force when the kingdom (the church) was established (Acts 1,2). There is no indication of the "spirit OF God" in the entire Bible as a person.

No, we are not "the spirit of God." Each human being has "a spirit." "The spirit of man," obviously, should not be mistaken for "the spirit of God." But in either case, the "spirit" is not another person.

(More to say, but I must post....)


 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

January 2 2016, 7:37 PM 

If Jesus is the only begotten son of God then the historic scholars and Alexander Campbell are correct that God is a literal "father" at the same time that Jesus because a son. Only after Jesus' baptism was He confessed as God's Son. His physical nature came through Abraham-David.

Rom. 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Rom. 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit OF holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

If Jesus existed even before He was prophesied as Messiah He would not be a God person or "people." The Word or LOGOS is God's Regulative or governing principle: it is exercised through speaking. To debunk the pagan Hermes or Kairos, God's logos excludes human reasoning, personal experiences, singing, playing instruments or acting.

The Word or Logos was a literal member only of the pagan trinity as Hermes, Mercury or Kairos.
To contradict the pagan theology, the Word is defined as what one speaks in wordS defining God's Ruling principle.
Jesus did not originate but articulated what the Father breathed (spirit) into Him. Only when He speaks what He hears is He the audible-visible WORD of God in the same sense that He is the LIGHT of God.

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent SPEAKETH the words of God:
for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and HATH given all things into his hand.


God the Father breathed and gave the Son all things and the Son speaks only what He hears. His Disciples are likewise NOT OF this World so that they speak what Jesus conveyed and are hated and despised: a MARK.

Therefore, Jesus could say in contrast to human food, "My Words are Spirit and they are Life." The connection seems to be that God's Spirit or Mind is carried only by the Words (Logos).

What Alexander Campbell Affirms but the "progressives" repudiate: John Mark Hicks tries to make Alexander Campbell into a "closet trinitarian."

1. In the first place I object to the Calvinistic doctrine of the Trinity
for the same reasons they object to the Arians and Socinians.

They object to these, because their views derogate in their judgment from the eternal glory of the Founder of the christian religion.

They will not allow the Saviour to have been a creature, however exalted, because they conceive this character is unbecoming him, and contrary to the scriptural statements concerning him. They wish to give him more glory than they think the Arians are willing to do.

Now I object to their making him and calling him an "Eternal Son" because I think that if he were only the Son of God from all eternity, he is entitled to very little, if any more glory, than what the Arians give him.

I wish to give him more glory than the Calvinists give him. They are as far below his real glory, in my judgment, as the Arians are in their judgment.

2. But in the second place, I have an insuperable objection to the Arian and Calvinistic phraseology--On the doctrine of the first relation existing between the Father and the Saviour of Men,

because it confounds things human and divine,
and gives new ideas to bible terms unthought of by the inspired writers.


The names Jesus, Christ, or Messiah, Only Begotten Son, Son of God, belong to the Founder of the christian religion, and to none else. They express not a relation existing before the christian era, but relations which commenced at that time.

To understand the relation betwixt the Saviour and his Father, which existed before time, and that relation which began in time, is impossible on either of these theories.

There was no Jesus, no Messiah, no Christ, no Son of God, no Only Begotten, before the reign of Augustus Cesar.

The relation that was before the christian era,
.....was not that of a son and a father,
.....terms which always imply disparity;
.....but it was that expressed by John in the sentence under consideration.
.....The relation was that of God,
.....and the "WORD OF GOD."

This phraseology unfolds a relation quite different from that of a father and a son--a relation perfectly intimate, equal, and glorious.

This naturally leads me to the first sentence of John. And here I must state a few postulata.

1. No relation amongst human beings can perfectly exhibit the relation which the Saviour held to the God and Father of All anterior to his birth. The reason is, that relation is not homogenial, or of the same kind with relations originating from creation.

All relations we know any thing of are created,
such as that of father and son.

Now I object as much to a created relation as I do to a creature in reference to the original relation of God and the WORD of God.This relation is an uncreated and unoriginated relation.


Note again, that the Word or Logos is God's Regulative Principle always spoken. If Jesus existed at the time He would not be a GOD PERSON but only God's Principle of Governing the universe.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.180.96 on Jan 4, 2016 5:27 PM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

January 3 2016, 11:53 PM 

Ken, would you clarify one line in your post above when you said:

What Alexander Campbell and the "progressives" repudiate


I didn't realize that Campbell and the change agents (progressives) would repudiate the same thing? Although they would ... occasionally?

Maybe I misunderstood something.

Or, did you mean to say something to the effect that the progressives [would] repudiate what Alexander Campbell said?

 
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120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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