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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: One Lord

January 7 2016, 2:38 AM 

Bill boasts about and trusts his "human imagination" and is fixated on his fallacious premise that God the Father and Jesus Christ ARE [?????] one [?????] and the same Being. Scripture twisting works for him he thinks.

Bill's nonsensical logic is as follows:

1. God the Father sent His only begotten Son
2. But God Himself literally became flesh, so Jesus is God on earth;
3. Therefore, God and Jesus Christ are one and the same Being.


Wow!!! That's Bill. Dr. Bill's creative imagination.

 
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Bill
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74.179.204.26

Re: One Lord

January 7 2016, 9:20 AM 

Sarcasm is not much of a rebuttal, Donnie. That's all you have left. You can't get around the Bible's "One Lord" and still say the "Lord God" and "Lord Jesus" are two separate Lords. For it all to fit, God and Jesus must be the same One Being, the same One Lord. If the Bible had never said that there is only One Lord, you might have had a case for Lord God and Lord Jesus as two separate Beings, two separate Lords. But since the Bible does say that there is only One Lord, then to say that Lord God and Lord Jesus are separate and not identical is the product of your highly imaginative talents.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: One Lord

January 8 2016, 3:48 AM 

The untruth (yours) is never a rebuttal especially in a religious discussion.

THE TRUTH (the Scripture) says: "that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Acts 2:36)

You must accept that truth, Bill.


1. Yes, "the Lord God" is mentioned 500+ times in Scripture.
2. Yes, God made Jesus Lord (Acts 2:36).
3. Yes, therefore, the crucified Jesus is Lord (Acts 2:36).

1. "The Lord our God is one Lord" ((Mark 12:29).
2. "There is one Lord Jesus Christ" (I Cor. 6:8).
3. So, one is Lord; the other is Lord.

"ONLY ONE LORD" -- is NOT in the Bible
.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.240.211.68

Re: One Lord

January 8 2016, 12:59 PM 

There can only be One Lord, not two Lords. Donnie says one is Lord and the other is Lord. Yet the Bible says there is only ONE Lord: The Lord our God is one Lord, not two Lords.

Donnie says "Only one Lord is not in the Bible." Donnie fails to realize that "Two separate Lords" is also not in the Bible.

If there is only one Lord, as the Bible says, the Lord God and Lord Jesus are One and the same Being. Jesus is God.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree...again, because we interpret the Bible differently and we're not about to change each other's minds. Whereas Donnie interprets the Bible as having two separate Lords, I interpret the Bible as having one Lord with God and Jesus being identical as that same one Lord as one Being. I also recall the Scriptures saying "One Lord [not two], one faith, one baptism" (Eph. 4:5) and "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30), not two or more Lords.

Have a nice day. happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: One Lord

January 8 2016, 1:24 PM 

Those who CAN read my posts note that Scripture says that there are MANY gods and MANY lords. Both of these are generic: if you GIVE ATTENDANCE to the false sermons and silly songs and not-talented singers then these are your gods and lords since they RULE OVER YOU.

IF YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN instead of a trinitarian ANTI-CHRISTIAN you will not be permitted to deny:

1Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God made the MAN Jesus of Nazareth TO BE both Lord and Christ: that RULERSHIP as KING over His kingdom the Church will cease when Jesus returns and the SORCERERS are CAST ALIVE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

People who refute the Scriptures and "speak on their own" have the Devil as their Lord because Jesus said "they are sons of the Devil."


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: One Lord (and Bill's One Person)

January 10 2016, 2:01 PM 

There are those who also GIVE ATTENDANCE to the man-made Trinity Creed instead of (or more than) the Scripture -- not just the silly songs and the false sermons.

When the Trinity dogma asserts that there are 3 PERSONS in one God (1+1+1=3), their minds are too preoccupied with desperately looking for scriptures [and there's NONE]:

(2) to prove that Jesus Christ is God and
(3) to prove that the Holy Ghost is God also.

When the Scripture clearly specifies that "... there is but one God, the Father" (I Cor. 8:6) and there are numerous (other) passages that support that truth that the one true God is the Father, the Trinity followers are desperate:

(2) to prove that Jesus Christ is God and
(3) to prove that the Holy Ghost is God also.

There's so much confusion among those who have the affinity for the "3-persons-in-one-God" theory/speculation. (Bill is one of those: he will contend that while "God [is] in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity" [remember the song: "Holy, Holy, Holy!"], he will also contend that there is only ONE PERSON between God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son.)

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.240.211.68

One Supreme Being

January 10 2016, 2:59 PM 

Why shouldn't the Holy Spirit be God? We know that God is a spirit (John 4:24), and since God is holy, then He as a Spirit is holy; hence the Holy Spirit is God. Can a being who is already a spirit (God) have a (separate?) spirit of its own? In other words, is the Holy Spirit the spirit of a spirit? Apparently Donnie thinks so.

I believe that there is only one Supreme Being in the universe, only One Lord, not two or more, Who manifests Himself as God, as Jesus, as the Father, as the Son, and as the Holy Spirit. God is not a person, neither is the Holy Spirit a person. Jesus, once a physical man on earth, is no longer a person; He is God, Who is Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word [Whom we know to be Jesus Who was made flesh], and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" (1 John 5:7).

"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30).

I interpret the phrase "are one" in these passages to mean "one and the same." Donnie has an entirely different interpretation; furthermore, he believes that all interpretations other than his are "wrong," that his is the only correct interpretation.

That's why he won't agree to disagree. happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: One Supreme Being AND one BEGOTTEN Son

January 10 2016, 3:46 PM 

That's right Bill, when you say I THINK that's bad news!

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
[30] ego et Pater unum sumus

Unum 1. Adverbial expressions.
a. Ad unum, all together, unanimously, to a man, without exception:
b. In unum, into one, to one place, together:

Sumus exist

John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
John 10:32 Jesus answered them,
.....Many good works have I shewed you FROM my Father;
.....for which of those works do ye stone me?
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying,
.....For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy;
.....and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
John 10:35 If he called them gods,
.....UNTO WHOM the word of God came,
.....and the scripture cannot be broken;
John 10:36 Say ye of him,
.....WHOM the Father hath SANCTIFIED,
.....and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest;
.....ecause I said, I am the Son of God?
John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Jesus the Man was sanctified or set aside by God when He was called the SON OF GOD after He was baptized. A son of God is "god" but He is not the FATHER or ALMIGHTY.

Jesus said that He was the SON OF GOD. Why accuse Him with being stupid: He could have said and WOULD HAVE SAID "I AM Jehovah the only elohim."





 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: One Supreme Being

January 10 2016, 4:16 PM 

Bill,

(1) Congratulations! You have just recited the Trinity Creed in an excellent manner.

(2) I John 5:7 is debatable/considered in other translations as spurious. You need to examine many other versions. Do you have access to multiple versions online? If not, you may need it for discussion of this other doctrinal topics.

(3) John 10:30 is one passage we have discussed frequently. The expression "are one" does not prove "one being"; rather, it speaks of one mind or unity between God and Jesus. (a) God is the Father; (b) Jesus Christ is the Father's Son and is, therefore, "the Son of God."

(4) You are confusing: (a) God the Father who is WHOLLY a spirit, i.e., without flesh and bones and blood, with (b) the Spirit of God in reference to His mind, breath or power.

(5) "Is the Holy Spirit the spirit of a spirit?" That's the question that arises when one believes in the Trinity Creed that the Holy Spirit is God. That question is non-existent when there's no proof that "the Holy Spirit is God."

(6) You say that God the Father and the Son of God are one person/being. But you did not address the issue of whether or not the "Holy Ghost" is jointly ONE PERSON WITH GOD and JESUS. So, please address this one.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: One Supreme Being

January 10 2016, 4:23 PM 

Donnie, you may need to do conjunctions after all.


My Father AND I are one.

Trinitarians say that 1 and 1 and 1 are 1

1John 5:6 ¶ This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit IS TRUTH truth.

Jesus said my WORDS are TRUTH and He said My Words are SPIRIT.

1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE.

[ME, MY BREATH AND MY WORDS ARE ONE OR UNITED]

Word is what God speaks in wordS. Spirit literally means BREATH. Neither Word nor Spirit are god people. Again, John may be made to sound stupid for not saying that there are THREE: Jehovah, Jesus and a people named Holy Ghost.

1John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of GOD is greater:
for this is the witness of GOD which he hath testified
of his SON.
1John 5:10 ¶ He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar;
because he believeth not the record that GOD gave of HIS Son.


But, God will never let trinitarians read the REST OF THE STORY.



    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.180.96 on Jan 10, 2016 4:32 PM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: One Lord

January 10 2016, 4:53 PM 

Bill said to Donnie:
"... If there is only one Lord, as the Bible says, the Lord God and Lord Jesus are One and the same Being. Jesus is God.... Whereas Donnie interprets the Bible as having two separate Lords, I interpret the Bible as having one Lord with God and Jesus being identical as that same one Lord as one Being...."


(1) That "Jesus is God" is YOUR pre-established premise that you acquired from the Trinity Creed. That is only a theory that needs to be Scripture-proven, and many disagree with that theory. There is a serious problem when you present all of your other arguments based on that theory.

(2) "Lord" is a title. There is: "lord of the harvest" ... "Lord of the whole earth" ... "lord of the vineyard" ... "Lord of the heavens and earth" ... "the Lord of hosts" .... I'm NOT counting the number of "lords."

(3) Leave "Lord God" as is. It is scriptural. It applies to God the Father, "the Lord of Israel" in the Old Testament, since Jesus Christ was only prophesied in the O.T. but was not born until 2 millennia ago.

(4) Leave "Lord Jesus" as is. It is scriptural. That's no proof that Jesus is God, regardless of how you speculate so deeply.

(5) The expression "ONLY LORD GOD" applies to God the Father -- not Jesus Christ (Jude 1:4)

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: One Supreme Being

January 10 2016, 5:17 PM 

Not only conjunctions (or, and) but also verbs (is, are). Bill's in double jeopardy. He rejects the significance of the conjunction "and" ... as well as the verb "is" ... unless he is teaching grammar. happy.gif He needs to show us how to diagram: My Father AND I ARE one. (Hint: "and" [plural beings]; "are" [plural beings]; "one" [does not mean conjugal twins in one body].)

In I John 5:7, "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost" is not part of the text in most of the translations. Whether for that reason or not, I John 5:7-8 together must be read and studied in context.

(Maybe we should unlock Bill's "grammar" thread so he can teach us and himself too.)

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.240.211.68

Re: One Supreme Being

January 10 2016, 5:51 PM 

I don't think Donnie wants to agree to disagree. LOL happy.gif

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: One Supreme Being

January 11 2016, 12:26 AM 

Bill, you may have access to multiple versions or translations online. It will be worthwhile to read and study I John 5 verses 7 and 8. (You quoted I John 5:7. That's good. But a parallel search online shows the text differently in many versions.)

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Jesus was sent to heal SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS.

January 4 2016, 11:26 AM 

The Greeks understood LETTER as that which is written, but SPIRIT is to understand the MEANING of what you hear. Spirit is ABLE to grasp that:

There is ONE GOD THE FATHER
And One Lord (temporary leader) as SON.
The One God the Father MADE the man Jesus of Nazareth TO BE His anointed (Christ)
The Son spoke of His God and ours: just one of those unless you are "OF the World desperately seeking to restore the ECUMENICAL or the reign of Satan."

When God gives you A holy spirit or A good conscience, consciousness or a CO-PERCEPTION then you can read black text on white paper. This gift of perception never gives one the ability to contradict ALL of the statements about the Father-Son relationship. It simply gives one the GIFT of A holy spirit which means that all of the STRAITNESS added by milling multitudes has been WASHED AWAY so that you can "see afar." We have noted that:

SPEAK to ONE ANOTHER with the "poetic" Scriptures--that which is written for our LEARNING.

CANNOT be understood by the "progressives" as anything but:

SING to the AUDIENCE with what itzy-bitzy praise leader wrote
SING and make melody UPON AN INSTRUMENT of your choice
TO the admiring and therefore "worshiping" admirers: look at me, look at me, see Dick, see Tom, See Harry, See Mary make Merry.

If you say that LEXIS and the LOGOS words mean SPEAK as the OPPOSITE of ODE they will say, with their new Phd, that SPEAK means SING contradicting the LOGOS or regulative principle and therefore ANTICHRISTS.

Only those who HEARD the invitation and responded by wanting to be baptized are those TO WHOM God speaks. Others hear babble words but do NOT comprehend.

Let's see if anyone can detect Who is the only real HOLY (wholly) SPIRIT.

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Jesus was sent to heal SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS.

January 6 2016, 11:43 AM 

You still ignore the fact that the Bible allows only one Lord, yet for God to be Lord AND for Jesus to be Lord, they have to be one and the same. God and Jesus are one and the same Being, one and the same Lord.

Both god and lord are generic words. If you hire someone who claims to be the agent of Jehovah and you give all of your attention to their words then you are defacto worshiping that person. If you spend your time thinking about money then money is your god.

I the Prophets which defines the future kingdom of Messiah the Lord has no meaning unless you name Him Jehovah. Even then, Jah might speak of Zeus unless you attach a modifier:

Gen. 24:12 And he said, O LORD [Jehovha] God [Elohim]] of my master Abraham, I pray thee, send me good speed this day, and shew kindness unto my master Abraham.

Ex. 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.


The world is FILLED with LORDS and GODS: The Greek translation uses Theos to mean GOD and Kurios to mean Lord. To distinguish Jesus from your senior pastor claiming to be the Authoritative Teacher from the ONE LORD the bible NAMES JESUS so we can MARK anyone who refused to teach and observe what Jesus commanded to be observed.

1Cor. 8:4 ¶ As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but ONE.
1Cor. 8:5 For though there be that are CALLED gods,
whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods MANY, and lords MAN,)
1Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father,
OF whom are all things, and we in him;
and one Lord Jesus Christ, bY whom are all things, and we by him.


The Jah as El is distinguished from the gods of the world, kosmos or the ecumenical:

Gen. 14:22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the MOST HIGH God, the possessor of heaven and earth,

Jehovah must be hyphenated Lord God to distinguish Him from the "lords" of religious institutions forcing people to WORK on the Sabbath (Rest day)

God (singular) made the MAN Jesus of Nazareth TO BE the Lord (ruler) and Christ (Messiah-annointed) over His SPIRITUAL KINGDOM which does not come with observation meaning religious spectacles (shock and awe) but is WITHIN the individual member of the Little (mikros) Flock. They are SEPARATED as Paul separated his flock FROM the world, kosmos or the ecumenical. Satan is the KosmoKrater or world ruler or LORD.

kosmos , ho, A. order, kata kosmon in order, duly, shamefully, generally, of things, natural order, ornament, decoration, esp. of women, metaph., of ornaments of speech, such as epithets, to sing sweet songs of praise, world-order, universe, first in Pythagoras, of earth, as opp. heaven, 3. in later Gr., = oikoumenē, the known or inhabited world, 5. houtos ho k. this present world, i.e. earth, OPPOSITE. heaven, Ev.Jo.13.1; regarded as the kingdom of evil, ho arkhōn tou k. toutou ib.12.31.

Kosmo-krator epith. of ouranos, Orph.H.4.3; “Zeus Mitras Hēlios k.
Dam.Pr.131; hoi k. tou skotous toutou the cosmic rulers of this sinful world, dentified with Apollon.
Ep.Eph.6.12; “hoi k. hoi ta hupo selēnēn stoikheia dioikountes”

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. [OUT of the Oikoumen- not INTO]

Jesus is Jehovah's WORLD RULER because His creation rescues the Little Flock for this WORLD ORDER "Reserved for fire."

1Cor. 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cor. 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Cor. 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet.
But when he saith all things are put under him,
it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cor. 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him,
then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.






 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

January 22 2016, 1:30 PM 

In the initial post, I quoted at least 10 passages affirming "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

To those who believe that the Father is the Son or that the Son is the Father [what a confused state of mind!!!], did you seriously study those passages?

Here's one more question. Just one. Who is "the head of Christ"? Or, without consideration, would you say that Christ is "the head of Christ"?

HINT: Please read and study I Corinthians 11:3.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.15.117

Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

January 22 2016, 1:44 PM 

I'm more than satisfied that Jesus is God. Apparently Donnie still worries about this topic, because he keeps posting about it: "Read these passages." "Study those passages." Yes, we've more than read and studied all of Donnie's favorite passages. We interpreted them as telling us that Jesus is God the first time we read them, and we'll still interpret them as telling us that Jesus is God after we've read them a thousand times, because with this subject, it's all a matter of individual interpretation.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

January 22 2016, 2:54 PM 

How scholarly [LOL]!!! Arguments and premises coming from a highly educated "disciple" (learner) of Christ. Supposedly.

Thing is, Bill, you cannot argue with the Scripture. When the Scripture states numerous times (most of which are coming from Paul's various epistles -- AFTER Christ's death, burial, resurrection and ASCENSION) -- "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" -- your interpretation negates the truth.

Speaking of "individual interpretation," that's not even in the picture. The Scripture SIMPLY and CLEARLY STATES: "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." And clearly you are negating what the Scripture simply and clearly states. There are no ifs and buts in those scriptures.

Parse: "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." I'll start it for you:

----- the: a definite article ("the God" and "a god" in contrast);
----- God: a title attributed to Yahweh or Jehovah; also the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob;
----- and: a conjunction that joins "God" and "Father";
----- [let the grammarian complete it].

Parse also: "the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)

----- the: a definite article ("the head" and "a head" in contrast);
----- head: expresses in context subordination and insubordination;
----- of: a preposition indicating direction towards the object: Christ;
----- Christ: the object that has his head;
----- is: the verb in the verb clause as predicate;
----- God: the subject.

So, Bill, that's not a matter of individual or private interpretation. Twisting the Scripture is not acceptable.



 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.15.117

Re: The God of Jesus Christ -- Who Was/Is He?

January 22 2016, 6:15 PM 

Donnie gets a bit ticked off and resorts to sarcasm when people don't accept his personal "theology."

 
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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

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At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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